IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER

R.Esson J. Meekings G.Warren C.Hogg G Shinnie A.Doran N.Ross A.Shinnie R.Foran S.Sutherland B.MacKay Sub 1 M.Laing Sub 2 L.Polworth Sub 3 G. Morrison Sub 4 Sub 5 Sub 6 Sub 7 See Mr Man4the joabie - it is getting feckin better !!

Well I look at this as being an "encouraging" sign plus a potentially good player. Of course there are going to be early door "jitters" but he is joining us at the start of the pre-season. Also it goes to show what a "pull" Butcher still has down South. Lets hope that he supports this guy and finds the correct "match" for him and gives him a feckin run even if he does feck up initially. Morrison's return plus this guy can only be positive.

Well either we were wrong or we had the "desirable effect" !!!

Feck me I was going to say yes before I read that !!! I am sitting on the fence - I put faith in him last season and he failed miserably. However lets all hope that he proves us all wrong. After all this season has to be looked at as Butchers team - irrespective of whether he can sign the players that he wants or not.

Now that is what you refer to as "middle ground" - I would add Gavin Morrison and even McKay to the plus column and the continued presence of Esson and Foran from the overall experience perspective. However it should be construed that most of the departures must have been "suspected" well before the end of last season and contingency plans set in motion. To the minus column I would add that we really need an experienced head at the back and a scoring forward but where do we get them form and how do we finance any contract - without that we will do well to survive. The other concern is evidently the tactical approach. If there are contingency plans they are not apparent.

C*unty probably valued the "P*ssing off ICT" aspect at a couple of hundred a week in itself. That may be actually quite near to the truth. Unfortunately I also feel that Rosscoe has done this primarily to p!ss off Butcher. However I stick to my firm believe that his termination of contract was carried out deplorably - and a mistake - BUT I also feel that Rosscoe has let down the fans, such as myself, who have supported him. In many ways, possibly OTT, I compare this (in a lesser sense) to Ally McCoist and Neil Lennon crossing the Old Filth divide. It is quite clear that Tinkerville are looking to consolidate next season and getting as much SPL experience in their squad as possible. And - of course the previous ICT players have a real point to prove - but that does not always work out as a positive. And - yes it will require a change of tactics when we play them - although Rosscoe is not a guaranteed starter - and if anybody should know how to do that it is Terry and Mo. Cant wait to get on P&B later

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Match of the Day presented by Stevie Wonder. I actually think that Foran will be more of an asset to ICT this season than Rosscoe would have been. I have always thought that Rosscoe's best position was at right back and I dont think that he has been the same player since moving to centre half. Foran "suffered" fom having to play in midfield and the Foran/Tansey combination never really gelled. People asked for a Duncan like figure in midfield and that is actually what Foran provided. Foran had a contract in place and not a renewed one - which makes a bit of a difference. I simply wanted to keep hold of Esson, Tokely and Foran because of the need for experience. At last you are beginning to put in a sensible response and forgetting about the money, perfromance aspects, personal beefs and the strong club alliance. It bothers me greatly that he went to the press which evidently reeks of reactive anger - so if the final nail in the coffin was fired on the eve of the Hibees match then that is deplorable and I could understand the action, albeit probably not thought through. It could also potentially be that he is telling the truth and attempting to show that there is a draconian regime in office. The "switch" the financial aspect is definitely a contradictory element. The club do deserve a lot of praise becos he could have been ousted 2-3 seasons ago and probably the unavailability of a central defender plus his spirited performance saved his bacon. Oddquine would probably add that, like me, you are "guessing" and talking from your perspective of the goings on at the club. My "anger" has been expressed and is dissapating but I will always feel that the club is at fault and primarily the manager for the Munro manner in which this has been dealt with and - lets face it - we all have contacts within the club and relatives of players who seep out "feelings". But as I have allude to before he has been, probably inevitably, linked to Tinkerville and if he chooses to go there - then he is saying something completely different to the loyal support that he has had in the last few years and the last fe weeks.

For goodness sake - please ensure that you have absolute 100 per cent proof before you post anything on here and please desist from any negative utterances

Well we are certainly getting diverse perspectives being interchanged now - not only in regard to the "treatment" of Mr Tokely. Some may look at this thread as being the usual forum fare but would Mr Tokely be looking at some of the comments being made by some as potentially being destructive or beyond ? It is the new world of business sense and acumen against compassion and loyalty - a half way agreement would have been the best. It will be interesting to see the next chapter if he moves across the Bridge - which I am very reliably informed is being mooted.

Destruction and beyond :lol: :lol: :lol: More like disagreeing with the "popular" point of view or daring not to toe the party line. This is a feckin fans forum where diverse views should be allowed and tolerated. If I took on board all the personal insults aimed at me I would be a quivering wreck. I remember the day that we used to have the "craic" on here without fear that some righteous bestards would'nt come along with multiple quotes :lol: It feels that we have moved on from the "fanzine" mentality to the controlled fanzone model. Assasination to some is sarcasm to others - and the closer to the truth that it gets the better. And yet again the topic of a thread has been turned into a wee bit of a witchhunt. But I have to agree to a degree with Huisdean - lets look to the forthcoming season and try to put the memories of the last 12 months behind us. And out of interest by dog is a cross between a Staffie and a whippet - a bit of the cross breed that you need to survive on Caleythistleonline

I am shure that players are receptive to constructive criticism.

I am heartened that I am bringing out the sarcasm potential of some previously staid posters. I have to accept your reasoning behind the whole ship analogy but the captain of a ship is dependent on his crew and your post relates mostly to the responsibilities of the Stewards Department. And perhaps Terry is a "fool from the hill" and it is the merger to blame !!

No it aint crazy it is actually wholly realistic. Any manager would wish to have his "own" team either signed by him or continuing to be welcomed and appreciated by him. Most managers have a favoured manner of playing and a couple of preferred systems. The problem since promotion has been that the players have not fitted in to the system and/or the players brought in have not had the requisite skills or abilities to fit in to the system. Many of the loaned in players have smacked a bit of reactive desperation and were evidently not scrutinised wee enff prior to their arrivals. So that should all have changed now and there should be a wish list of players made up weeks if not months ago with priorities added in. I still feel that we should not be aagian making a top six finish as the ambition/aim but go to survival, improved performances and consistency. And I also hope that we try and secure year long loan deals or at least six months with an extension added in to the deal.

The "big" difference between Brewster and Butcher lies with their personalities and characters. Brewster was very reactive, often emotive and outspoken. He was aloof and often also opened his gob before he had thought through what he was saying. Butcher is charasmatic and likeable and very calm, assured and controlled. Butcher will not get immersed in any form of bickering. He will undoubtedly not discuss the Tokely matter any further and adhere to the official statements that have been made and will be made. That also projects the "blame" and the ownership of the decision on the club and Tokely. Butcher will innocently plead innocence. In many ways that is pretty feckin impressive from a business management perspective. The Tokely issue is also diverting people's attention from the dilemna of a host of players not signing up and a real "scamble" to get players in for the start of the season (again!!). If Butcher could add tactical prowess to his repetoire he would be one mighty manager and would also be heading towards legend status. Munro did have a pretty poor season on his return to the SPL. Rosscoe has been struggling for years. Duncan was finished. If you want to go back then Wilson and Wyness were over their sell back dates.But the "threat" posed by Munro and Tokely lay off the field of play and related to their "influence" in the dressing room and with the support. From what I gather it was six of one and half a dozen of the other. But there are some who are extolling the likes of Golobart, Williams and even Aldred. Golobart has potential but makes as many "mistakes" as Proctor. Williams is "raw" and will never get above League 2 status and Aldred was a big mistake. So no replacement was brought in for Munro - if there had been then the odds on are that Tokely would not have got a game last season. The mere fact that Rosscoe was one of the few who appeared to be fisrt on the starting X! and even Butcher stated that he would love a team of Tokelys must show that he was worth a shout again this season. The issues are the "timings" - to announce this on the eve of the final match was deplorable. As I have alluded to before at least Munro had an opportunity to say "goodbye". That must have been a real kick in the teeth after 16 years and playing regularly throughout the season. And initially Tokely referred to not getting a chance to prove himself. And I dont know the actual sums involved but if lets say Tade was offered more than Rosscoe - and lets face it these things are discussed - then Rosscoe must also have been angered. Probably the biggest problem for Tokely is that he didnt have an agent fighting his corner and the final decision may have rested on improved deals to try and keep Hayes, Tansey and Tade on board. Well that is me finished with that and moving on to the new season. But, as Gringo junior, has mentioned Butcher has now placed himself in the open and the target for all the Internet snipers. Personally I am not going to reproach him in regard to Munro and Tokely becos it makes sense from a playing perspective. Butcher will now be judged on holding on to the likes of Gillet, getting on board a central defender and a scoring striker and - please gawd - altering his tactical approach and improving the standard of play.

Admirable at times but so innocently Admirable but yet innocently feckin annoying at times !!

Gringo Jnr - You are completely missing the point. Butcher is clearly "threatened" by the power and popularity of some individuals and needs to be in full control. It is the manner in which he and the club have "treated" Tokely and MunroGrant that is the issue. Even Sutherland made a snide remark at the Munro Testimonial and it is clear that whatever Butcher wants the others jump. He undoubtedly is trying to put together his own squad and his own system but will he change it this season - I have my doubts. Thanfully we have retained a pretty solid "core" of a squad - it does concern me that Ross, Sutherland and Morrsion may well find themselves as bit players again to allow loanees to get starts and again the level of consistency and "togetherness" may be lost. What now happens with the likes of Gillet and Tudor-Jones will now be defining decisions, especially as they have watched the debacles of the last couple of weeks. No-one can blame Butcher for the departures of Hayes and Tansey as they were always going to move on at some stage anyway. Tade is the puzzler and I can only think that it was as much based on how he was played and dropped and played out of position. And why would the club go official about Hayes despite nothing formal being decided and not Tokely ? The bottom line is that it would now be disastrous if we didnt have Butcher at the helm so lets see what he comes up with and how he sets up the system this season. I still have a dread that he will be jumping ship as well.

Good point - they cant always react in the same manner as they did with Gavin Morrison.

That is actually quite "deep" and admirable. It has actually struck a chord with me. Thank you very much young Luke. I have just remembered thinking like that many moons ago.

Well there is probably only one answer to that - at Rugby Park, Kilmarnock - when we threw away our "system" and went to an attacking 4-3-3 and/or 4-3-1-2.

I would have thought that the question mark and the two exclamation marks at the end of the sentence would have heralded a suspicion that a tad of sarcasm had been utilised. But perhaps answer one question with a mere yes or no. Is it a distinct possibility that the the reduced attendances and season ticket sales could also be linked with the standard of football served up last season ?

Again I thank you and appreciate the feedback. I am equally thankful that it would appear that my psychological formulation would now appear to be fully understood by the forum members. I should also thank you for your concern over my employment but I am currently working three days a week within the Central Lancashire Psychological Therapies service. It may also be worth advising yourself and others that we do consider "out of area" referrals. By the way I always end teaching sessions with a video clip, preferably of a humerous nature - so I will share this little gem with you and will refrain from the tutorials from henceforth. http://youtu.be/c6xU_CPE310

Thank you very much for the moderating protection. It would appear that some individuals feel that they are above reproach. I apologise to the club shop if my post has upset anybody or caused any negative reaction. It was evidently posted in pure innocence and, at any other time, would have clearly been the most appropriate time to proffer a Bank Holiday weekend offer. I may well have a "sick" sense of humour but I still chuckle at the timing and hat may have well been fate !! Given the "atmosphere" at the moment it is not surprising that the "friction" levels have increased and I can appreciate that there is a number of loyal, dilligent employees who are trying to keep the ship afloat in the stormy waters.

You should really speak to someone regarding starting your own daytime tv show a la Dr Phil or a more up market Jeremy Kyle! Well here is a psycholgically linked prediction - A narcissist will gradually begin to feel very insecure and threatened if or when the sway of public opinion goes against them. They will utilise the situation to leave in order to preserve their perception that they must be correct and project the blame on to others - e.g. Being made a scapegoat, being misquoted, being unsupported lack of finances, fans with high expectations. Some of the "lesser" co-dependants involved will even support him. The narcissist will then manouevre the management in to agreeing a "pay off" so that the parting appears to be amicable. The narcissist will pick up the money from a lengthy contract, subsidised without of the formal budget - by person and/or persons unknown, and will move on, relatively intact. And ensuring that there is a back up plan, such as the media or even a position in a new "regime" in Govan.

smokescreen - "an action intended to conceal or confuse or obscure. derisory offer - "Although their meanings have coincided since their first appearance in the 17th century, in current use they are for the most part kept separate, derisive meaning 'scoffing, scornful' as in derisive laughter and derisive remarks and derisory meaning 'ridiculously small or insignificant' as in a derisory pay offer" Unfortunately Ross Tokely's offer had nothing to do with money. It was closely related to the discipline of power and control.

Narcississm is all about power and control. He really does totally run the ship but he projects the blame on to crew members and/or anybody suitable and relevant. But you simply can't blame Butcher for everything. Finances are restrained everywhere, attendances are falling across the land, people are voting with their feet due to both economics and the standard of fare being offered. Butcher to me is the "catalyst" in this scenario. And Doual has always had a point, plus County are on a "high" and they will have a better support, and probaly squad, than us next season. The one point about the wages is that we did appear to be in a position to offer better deals to Tansey and Hayes. They left to further their careers and I suspect that they and others felt stifled by the type of footballing "style" that we were embarking on. It is not all about apathy. It is also about the frustration of the performances and the tactics employed. I fer one am afraid that the ruthless culling of Tokely will make matters a lot, lot worse. Where the feck are the lauded Muirfield Mills Consortium when you need them ?!!