DoofersDad

Tie is far from over. By all accounts Hibs were still pretty poor last night nut got the breaks in front of goals. Hibs will know that to fail now having got the 2 goal cushion would be even more embarrassing than had they lost the tie following a first leg Hamilton win. If Hamilton can score first Hibs will be as nervous as hell. Hamilton have it all to play for and can take confidence into the game in that they are the better footballing side and yet are now the underdogs. Hibs will adopt spoiling tactics and Hamilton will need to be patient but I can see this one going to the wire.

I refuse to bow to the Neil Doncaster regime. It will forever be the Division's 1,2 and 3 for me. Should that not be divisions 2,3 and 4? Making reference to the lower leagues. Premier League, Division 1, Division 2 and Division 3 to clarify I gathered that, but my point is that the premiership should really be division 1 with the others 2, 3 and 4. I don't see the point of accepting the top division being called the premier league or whatever and the 2nd tier being called the first division, but then objecting to the 2nd tier also having some contrived name and calling the 3rd tier the first division. The records show that The Rangers are the First Division champions this year and that the original Rangers also won the First Division in the dats before all this premiership nonsense. The records shows the same thing but they are in reality 2 quite separate things. It just causes confusion. First should mean first and not third.

I refuse to bow to the Neil Doncaster regime. It will forever be the Division's 1,2 and 3 for me. Should that not be divisions 2,3 and 4?

There have been suggestions that he was not keen on Yogi's style of play and certainly he has not been the same commanding presence in some games in the latter part of the season. However, signing a 3 year deal would suggest that if he did have any problems with the management change, they have been resolved and he is happy with the plans on the playing side of things. Not only has Gary been superb in the heart of the defence since he arrived here, he has also scored some cracking goals from set peices. He's a very important player for us so this is particularly good news for more than one reason. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if he is made captain next season. I'm not convinced Foran will get a regular place back and if Shinnie does not extend his contract then Warren is the obvious choice - TBH I think he's the obvious choice even if Shinnie does extend his contract.

I believe it's the first time the letter "J" has appeared on the trophy. Got me thinking - how on earth would they fit our name on? Wel'll maybe find out next year!

Better than the other way round. At least Vernon would be able to see what's happening. If wee Billy was sitting behind Vernon he wouldn't be able to see a thing.

I would agree with Tob, I can't recall seeing so many empty seats in the body of the main stand as there were on Sunday. There were never over 3,000 folk there. With reference to CaleyD's point, my earlier post identified that last season the attendences went up for the 2nd matches for 5 of the 7 teams we played twice at home. I've only looked at the figures for ICT and only for these two seasons so it may have been that last season was bucking the trend due to us having a very good season and challenging for top three for the first time. According to the official figures, the St Johnstone gate for the 2nd game this season fell by less than the average - just 134 down on the first match compared with the average of 498. Hibs was the biggest drop - the attraction of an away day with Terry and Mo is obviously less appealing these days.

I don't know if the Chairman's comments in the P&J were from a statement or an off the cuff answer to a question a journalist posed. I would suspect the later because as CaleyD says there is nothing to be gained from deliberately misleading folk. But that doesn't alter the fact that his statement would appear to be wrong. Against the 7 sides we have played twice at home this season the average gate for the 2nd game dropped from 3,655 to 3,157. That is a drop of 498 per game on average. Kenny should have the figures for home and away support but I would be very surprised if a reduced away support accounted for that level of drop in attendance.

The only difference between this season and last was that County were top six last season as well. I don't know that any team played post split matches against both us and County but it won't have been been more than one and any impact on the overall figures from fans not wanting to go to both games would be pretty minimal. In any case, the impact would have been to reduce last year's 2nd half of the season attendances when it is this season's that have dropped off.

I don't get why people point to us being a small club with limited finances and say that therefore it is unrealistic to have an expectation of finishing in the top six next season. Yes we are a small club with limited resources and it is unrealistic to expect that we should be top six every season, but we are talking about next season. This season we finished 5th with our highest top 6 points total. All the first team squad are signed up till the end of next season and this continuity should give us a realistic expectation that that we will do even better next year. Not to match this year's points total would represent relative failure unless things are hijacked by other clubs suddenly getting resource to buy success. Celtic will win, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd will be strong and I would expect them to be top 3. Motherwell have done very well to finish 2nd again this year but I think it should be between us and them for 4th. That is a reasonable expectation. I hope we might be able to get top 3 but I predict we will be 6th or 7th.

I can't compete with RiG's graphics but I have done a bit of number crunching in order to compare like with like with attendances for the last two seasons. Looking at the figures for the 10 other teams which were all in the top division both seasons, the average gate for our home game in the first half of the season was 3,980 last season and 3,925 this season - a drop of just 1.4% Looking at the attendances only of the clubs we played a 2nd (or in Dundee Utd's case last year, a third) home match against, our average gate for the 1st match last season was 4,220 and the average gate for the 2nd (and for Utd using an average of their 2) matches was 4,337. That represents an increase in gates for the 2nd half of last season of 3% This season the average for the 1st matches for the clubs we played a 2nd home match against was 3,655 and the average for the 2nd matches was 3,157. That represents a drop in gates for the 2nd half of this season of 13.6% Looking specifically at the 4 clubs we have have played at least 2 home matches against in both seasons (Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Motherwell and St Johnstone) the average gate for the first match last season was 3,417 and for the second match (again using an average of utd's 2) was 3,977. That represents an increase in the 2nd half of the season of 16.5% This season the 1st matches against those 4 teams average 3,519. This is an increase of 3% on the previous year. The average for the 2nd round of matches was 3,285 - a drop of 6.6% on the first round of matches and 17.4% less that the 2nd round of matches against those 4 clubs last year. Of course, there will be specific reasons for sepecific matches but in general, comparing like with like in this way allows for a reasonable comparrison. A specific match can still skew an average so it is also worth looking at whether the attendances against clubs where we played 2 or more home matches were up or down for the 2nd game. In both seasons there were 7 teams we played at home twice. Last season the attendance for the 2nd match was higher for 5 teams and lower for 2. This year it was only higher for the Dundee Utd fixture - For the othe 6 teams there was a lower attendance for the 2nd game. I think it is clear from this that comparing like with like, there has been a significant downturn in attendances in the 2nd half of this season. Those are the facts. Make of them what you will.

Personally I pay very little attention to sponsors logos on shirts other than to register how they invariably ruin the look. The only one I've ever really liked was Lifescan's "One touch" logo because the brand name of their product reflected the style of football I would like to see. I've always thought Subway to be a particularly unappealing brand and the appearance of their premises certainly don't persuade me to darken their doors. Mind you, unappealing premises, but good honest unpretentious fare on offer suggests there might be a natural partnership here. Good on Subway for coming up with the money - I just might give them a try to say "thanks".

Adams is looking to buy him at a knock down price

Now that's sorted I'll go and get my seasoning ticket - although it looks as if we'll have to manage without the Pepper.

England - because I'm English!

The semi-final win was rather special and the final was a good occasion but I rather enjoyed the 3-0 drubbing of County at Dingwall. Following the initial abandonment of the game there was a very lengthy delay before the game was replayed and coming into it our form was not great and County were improving. On the day, we outplayed them in every department and with Motherwell losing heavily in Perth it looked as though we were back on track for a top 3 finish. We still had the league cup final to come and a Scottish Cup quarter final against Dundee Utd. There was a lot to feel good about after that performance - shame it didn't last.

So whether you agree with me or not is based on whether you think I know what I'm talking about and not on whether what I actually say is consistent with your thinking! I'm flattered! Just for clarity I can confirm that I haven't a clue what I'm talking about and my family and pyschiatrist can confirm that. But you are way wrong if you think I am one of the anti Hughes people looking for any scrap to have a go. Quite the opposite, I very much want Hughes to succeed but unfortunatey I am having to look for scraps to convince me that he might. In essence, what I was saying in my post was that I really don't know what style of football Hughes is trying to achieve but I like what I saw in the 2nd half yesterday.

Sorry but do you not remember his last game as our manager? Do you mean the last game when he was employed as our manager or the last one when he was actually doing his job in the dug out?

How would publicly knowing the numbers (presuming they're down) help you know the actual reasons for non renewal? You could just as well guess the reasons knowing the numbers or not. Unless they publicly released contact details for those not renewing so we could all give them a ring and ask. There's two points here. My original comment was in response to conjecture around poor sales and I was simply making the point that unless info on sales is made public there is little point having that conjecture. Any idividual can post the reasons for them buying / not buying a season ticket but having that debate in the context of known sales data would allow the thread to explore the reasons behind the facts rather than simply dabbling in speculation. Quite separate is the issue for the club. Whether they release the data or not, the club will know whether sales are up or down and that will influence what steps they decide to take to find out why folk either do or do not buy a season ticket. It would be perfectly reasonable for the club to give folk a ring to find out their views.

I don't know what to make of that. Obviously it was great to end the season with a win, end in 5th rather than sixth and to beat last year's points tally. Great also to sign off the season with an excellent last minute goal from Greg Tansey. But what do we learn from the match to take into next season? It was very much a game of two halves - again! First half was dull with very little action. Lots of sideways and backwards passing culminating in a pass back to Brill from Shinnie of all people from inside the opposition half! Second half was much, much better. It looked as though the half time team talk went something like "OK boys, forget everything I've taught you and just go out and play your natural game and give it a right good go!" We were much more threatening when we were more direct and attacking with pace and width. But then after the match Hughes in his interview was saying that we'd not been passing it quickly enough and we needed to up the pace of the game. He said the players were taking on board what he was trying to do and it showed in the second half. It does seem to me that the way we played in the first half was how we've tended to play since Hughes came in (ball to feet) and the way we played in the second half was how we were playing in the first half of the season when when we were 2nd (ball into the spaces). If how we played in the 2nd half was the way Hughes wants the team to play then that's fine by me but it certainly contrasted sharply with the style of play we have only witnessed since Hughes came here. The conclusions I reach are:- We have a very talented squad of players who are capable of playing very exciting attacking football. We have a manager who in recent weeks has had the team playing in a style which is boring to watch and which has been very unsuccessful. We have a manager who today takes credit for a 2nd half performance which was much more in the style of the team before he took up post. I have no idea what Hughes really wants from the team and consequently no idea of the style of football we are likely to witness next year.

Of course I agree that we should be trying to get sales up regardless of the whether sales are up or down, but the point surely is that it will be easier to do that if you know the reasons why those who you might most expect to buy tickets are not buying them.

Result never in doubt. I suggest prize to BA5 for being first with the correct guess.

I never suggested that people's decisions to buy will be influenced by season ticket sales and I agree the club has done well to hold prices. My point is simply that you can't have a debate about why sales are up or down if you don't know what the figures are. I'm not sure why you would be concerned that the press might use the figures for comparison with Aberdeen. So what if they do? There is the view that any publicity is good publicity and in any case it should be used as an opportunity to respond to the reasons some people may give for not renewing season tickets. Not being open with the media about the numbers being sold only suggests the club has someting to hide.

In terms of league position our last 2 seasons have been our best 2 seasons ever and we have Terry Butcher to thank for that. On a very limited budget he and his management team did an excellent job in finding latent talent and fashioning them into a team that could compete well in the top half of the SP(F)L. The sad thing both for the club and himself personally is that both seasons could have been better still. Both seasons saw us riding high in the league before Butcher decided he would capitalise on the success and head off to bigger clubs. Last year the aftermath of the Barnsley fiasco resulted in a significant drop in form when the players realised that despite all his praise about the loyalty of the players, the manager had no loyalty at all and was keen to leave. This year Butcher renaged on his commitment to the club and left and his successor has been unable to maintain the early season form. I am convinced that without the Barnsley fiasco we would have captured a European place last year and despite both Aberdeen and Dundee Utd being stronger this year, with the start we had, we could have finished higher and perhaps gone one better in the cups. As SP points out, had Butcher had faith in the team he had fashioned and gone on to win a European placing or a cup with ICT then his own stock would have risen immensley and he could have attracted a bigger salary elsewhere. But we've won nothing and he's won nothing. We are a small club and may never have such a good chance of success at the top level of Scottish football again. The Rangers, Hibs and Hearts will all return stronger in the next few years and it will be harder than ever to make that breakthrough. There is a feeling the Butcher took the team to the brink of that success but then snatched it away from us in order to satisfy his short term financial greed. The success of the last 2 seasons is a bittersweet success because we know that it could and should have been better. In denying us success, he has also denied himself success. The irony is that whilst the club has still enjoyed relative success, his opportunity for success may well morph into abject failure and leave his career in ruins. If so, he only has himself to blame and will get no sympathy from me.

Over 40 replies and not one has actually answered the OP's question. There is a lot of conjecture about whether or not sales will be up or down and reasons given why they might go up or down. The subject of honesty and communication has come up and it would be interesting to have some honest communication from the club about how sales are going compared to last year. Remember that our support comes from a wide range of situations and viewpoints. It is great that there are those who support the club through thick and thin and who would continue to buy their season tickets even if we slipped to Div 2, but we also have supporters who go to games not out of any particular loyalty but simply because they enjoy a good game of football. If they don't feel they are being entertained then they won't fork out money to watch the team. It really doesn't help to brand them as fair weather fans as it only serves to alienate them and drive them away. Indeed, these are the people the club needs to reach out to because the club needs them to come more often and hand their cash over. That is why it is important to have factual information about season ticket sales. If they are down then there will be a reason for that and a need to understand and address the problem. Perhaps if someone could answer the OP's question we could start to have a sensible discussion on this thread.