wynthank15

I think we should all calm down, Motherwell have a good squad and I am surprised that they found themselves in this situation, that said, I am surprised that we are in this situation given the squad we have, I think Willie Miller said the same thing last night. Even if we beat Motherwell which I am not convinced about we still have to get past Falkirk which will not be easy. Strangely enough, I said to my wife many months ago that it would be ironic if Falkirk put us down, we seem to have been fatefully involved with them in crucial matches over the years. Here's hoping. By the way did anyone notice Barry Wilson's comments last night that he felt it might be better for ICT to go down, he felt the club needed rebuilding from the ground up and that survival would only mask that need. Any thoughts?

Given the permutations I think a win for either might be the best result for us. Defeat for Motherwell would mean they have to beat Kilmarnock or face a last day decider against us in which GD wouldn't matter assuming of course that we pick up 3 points in one of our two games before that match. Defeat for Hamilton would probably mean they have to win their last game against Dundee, don't think they will get anything at County. These perms assume of course that we win two games one against Motherwell. I think both Hamilton and Motherwell would take a draw now meaning they probably only need one more point each to make the playoff or safety.

I love the passion with which JH speaks no matter which club he is managing, he may not be the most articulate and he may be too deferential when speaking about Glasgow Celtic but he tells it like it is. He is clearly up for the fight even if his players aren't. If he keeps Raith up he will have done a fantastic job as he inherited a nightmare there.

Put CC in charge of recruitment and scouting, set up a network of scouts, I don't think he is after the managers job but he clearly knows a player when he sees one and apparently we don't have a scouting system. Various managers have been criticised for their recruitment policies but I feel in many cases we are signing players because they are available not because we scouted them. I thought one of his best remarks the other night was when RF said he should have signed real men, battlers, CC made the point that RF wanted to sign players in his own image rather than footballers which should be the first priority. I recall Pele signed a midfielder from Brora sight unseen on a tip for £5,000 who turned out to be a decent footballer and played in the SPL

This is a problem that is going to affect all clubs with an average attendance under 5,000 who don't have a sugar daddy as costs rise against a stagnant support base. Scottish football is so poor that European qualification usually costs clubs money as they can't get through the preliminary rounds to the competition proper and can't recoup their costs due to the small supporter base St J being an example. Amongst the solutions would be part time football or hire more local talent at a cheaper cost which probably means playing in the lower leagues, smaller squad sizes, standing areas (at lower cost) and summer football might also help attendances. Clubs like Hamilton (who once had to resign from the league due to debt) have only survived because of their academy and the transfer fees and sell on fees they have collected which is definitely the way to go for smaller clubs to be able to compete. They also take a lot of their players from the lower Scottish leagues. When I started watching ICT we had a team of Scottish players now we have hardly any I also think the team we had in Div 1 was a better side than what we have now. There are far fewer people both playing and watching the game than there were back in the day, the standard has come way down and the cost way up. I recall a decent Partick side getting over 15,000 at home against Honved in the 70's despite getting knocked out with that crowd they would have made some money. They would be doing well to get half that today.

RIG I certainly did not want RF to fail but given his complete lack of experience it was always a strong possibility. The squad should have been good enough for a mid table finish and frankly with JH in charge there is no way we would be relegated. I was never against JH's style of play, it was brave of him to impose it on the players and after some early hiccups it worked even after he had lost his three best players. The claims made by RF pre season in the Q&A session about the style HIS team would play never materialised, the current team has no style, structure or shape. I'm not too sure what point you are trying to make or why you bothered to trawl through my past comments.

I can remember almost every second poster on this forum wanting JH out and RF in, so KC gave them what they wanted, he sacked JH and appointed the cheaper and less demanding option RF and filmed pre season interviews in which we were told that the old boring style of play would be gone and a new exciting brand of play would have the fans off their seats. Of course it was all nonsense, I said so at the time and whilst KC didn't expect RF to win anything I doubt he expected the whole thing to blow up quite so spectacularly. That the ICT support could call for the sacking of the man who brought us the SC, a third place finish in the league and European football for the first time is beyond understanding. As Charlie Christie said last Friday "they should have erected a statue in his honour", yet some people will still not give JH the praise he deserves and still hoped against hope that their hero RF could turn things around when it was painfully obvious he was completely out of his depth with less than half the season gone. A famous financial commentator once said (I think it was Melken) that "the people deserve what they get and they deserve to get it good and hard" Pride comes before a fall right enough, perhaps those same supporters ludicrous expectations might cool down in the championship. For my own part, I have set my expectations quite low, I expect another relegation should the current board and RF remain in charge.

Scotty, whilst I admire your upbeat outlook and like you I have enjoyed the highs and suffered the big low( relegation at the hands of Falkirk) I really hope KC is hurting at the moment because the ICT board have created this situation all by themselves. The sacking of JH which was needless in my opinion and the appointment of a complete rookie manager at any level of football shows the lack of football knowledge within the board. What made it even worse was the hour plus interview at the start of the season with RF and KC which smacked of unwarranted Hubris in both of them. I am convinced KC played to a large part of the ICT support who wanted JH out and RF in, much of the aforementioned interview referred to the club's current football style and how it would change under RF (for the worse as it turned out).The employment of Malpas is an acknowledgement that RF is just not up to the job. I am in little doubt that if RF remains in place we could be facing relegation next season too, the guy is out of his depth, I'm afraid I do not share your optimistic outlook..

What does this say about Foran and Rice? Is Malpas taking over the coaching or the Management role, he has a pretty poor record in both. I see it as an admission by the board that the current management team isn't up to the job but they have to be seen by the supporters as doing something as cheaply as possible. Perhaps they are trying to embarrass Foran and Rice into resigning, fat chance. If I were a player I would be totally bewildered, who am I going to listen to? I cannot recall such a situation at any other club and as a previous poster suggests it looks like the club are locked into the 4 year deal irrespective of results.

Quote "I am astonished that anyone is contemplating having John Hughes back as a manager. His signings were even poorer than Foran's and our style of play had become so predictable that teams soon sussed out how to play against us and we had no plan B. Would we have changed our style this season under John Hughes and been more exciting to watch, would he have signed better players than previously, the evidence suggests otherwise. There are in fact many similarities between JH and RF's style of management in that they are both stubborn and will not change their approach even when everyone can see that change is needed. Is that the one bit of experience RF picked up from JH?" We were so predictable that we won our first piece of silverware and had our best ever league position are you enjoying what you are watching now? JH completely changed our style of play and had to get the players and fans to buy into it despite the howlers committed in the early days by trying to play out from the back, he then lost his two best players in Shinnie and Watkins. ICT was still a work in progress when JH left, yes possession was overplayed at times but it takes good players to be able to mix it up and make the runs necessary to play a longer ball. Playing the way we did meant we were never going to be hammered by anyone in this league even when key players were missing because of the system we played. I am astonished that anyone wouldn't have him back especially after the dross served up this season.

It was during Paterson's tenure that I started following the club and his teams brought a great deal of enjoyment and entertainment, it was noticeable that his teams consisted of mainly Scottish players which was also pleasing, I loved watching ICT in those days. Regrettably my misgivings re Foran's appointment have been realised, it was a foolish move by the board. What also pains me is that the system which JH had put in place has been abandoned, the team has no philosophy of how they want to play the game and are rudderless as a result. Every team needs a style that they will employ ie how to go about getting a result whether that is defending for your life like Nottingham Forrest in their heyday or by relentlessly passing the opposition to death like Liverpool or stepping up as a unit like the great AC Milan team who won the ball without making a tackle so good was their togetherness, there was so much to build upon the foundation that JH put in place regrettably that's all been destroyed and the board not Foran must shoulder the blame.

Scarlett, I would have JH back in a heartbeat, he is the one who should have been offered a 4 year deal. He created a style that the club could have used as a template for future iCT teams, build up the play from the back, give the midfield time to support the strikers and ensure that all of the opposition players had to defend thereby preventing any quick breaks against our defence. Due to this system of play we were able to get results when we had players missing simply because we denied them the ball for long periods.The performance against Astra who were a quality team was excellent and very controlled despite us having lost our two best players to transfers, we basically lost the game to a goalkeeping error OFW's first of many. The current team has no playing philosophy or structure, all the good work by JH has been thrown overboard, we are almost certainly going down I just hope it is not the board's intention to leave RF in place or we may find ourselves in Div 1 before long, it's all very sad and in my opinion was avoidable, the board's hubris has come back to haunt them, they should be forced to watch the cringe inducing interview they aired at the start of the season when RF waxed lyrical about how great things were going to be for ICT in front of a smug Kenny Cameron, how the mighty are fallen,does anyone, anyone? really think we would be relegated with this squad if JH were in charge of it? not a chance.

DD JH's results speak for themselves he doesn't need my support.

Ronaldo, don't be too hard on yourself, I was against the rookie Foran who had served no apprenticeship from Day 1 and I got pelters from all those who wanted JH out before he left. If you don't play the ball through midfield you cannot buy the time to get others in support of the strikers and secondly you have not pushed back sufficient opposition players to keep them hemmed into their own 18 yard box making it difficult for them to break against you. JH understood this and was trying to get the team playing to that system but the supporters wouldn't have it. We got results even with a horrendous injury list during his last season thanks to this philosophy. All I hear now is how we aren't getting the breaks and luck is going against us. Luck's got nothing to do with it, you make your own luck usually by being in the opposition box more than your own. What has happened this season could have been foreseen at the start, what other manager in the top flight with one win in eighteen would still be in a job? The board have handcuffed themselves to Foran who I don't believe has the know how to take us back up when we are relegated whether that is this season or next. PS My post is no reflection on RF the wholehearted player nor his nature, he was given the job without any training before he was ready

"He blanked him during a function but had been blanking him for months according to said player. Ok Ive only his word for it but didnt see any evidence to disbelieve him. So yeh I think that could be construed as work place bullying yeh??? " Old Caley Girl do you think that Stein, Ferguson McLean never put pressure on players, some respond to it and some wilt and leave. As a Manager I had inherited some real slackers whom I kept the pressure on because they were short changing their colleagues who worked their tail off. The slackers either changed their attitude or shipped out. This is not bullying, it is being fair to those employees who are giving their all for their wages, whilst all should be treated fairly, there is nothing wrong in letting slackers know their card is marked if they don't shape up. The players under Stein used to say he blanked them when they were on the treatment table because they were of no use to him whilst injured. Ferguson made life uncomfortable for those who set a bad example to the younger players or who tried to undermine his leadership or were part of the drinking culture and that's the way it has to be. The accusation of bullying has been taken to extremes in this day and age, people run off crying to anyone who will listen if they feel they have been snubbed for perhaps quite legitimate reasons.

correction noted and thanks for the red dot

I don't like bullies, that's a fact, the treatment of Bughtmaster with the red dots is an absolute disgrace, that's a fact and his first comment about the board's appointment of RF as a fans favourite is a fact too. We have all seen the supporters on this forum clamouring for his appointment before JH was even forced out. I said at the time "be careful what you wish for". I had tears in my eyes the day we won the SC knowing how far the club had come and JH and the players did that, those who criticise JH for not recruiting players consider this in case you have forgotten, it was Steve Kinsella who identified those players, not Terry Butcher and the board should have bust a gut to retain Kinsella, I said so at the time. Unfortunately, there is no money in our club, nor in Scottish Football and I will make another prediction which you might bear in mind, half the current Premiership today will be part time within ten years. The only way to survive long term is to have a great coaching staff to rear players which cost nothing in transfer fees and JH was/is a great coach. Instead of panning him you should be thanking him for the greatest football moment most of us will ever experience.

I happen to think there was a basic misunderstanding between JH and the board. The board made extra money available during JH's last season to cover for the players that went out and the injury list at the start of the season after the two Astra games. When they said the budget would not be reduced, they meant the basic budget without the emergency signings JH I think interpreted the budget as being the basic plus the cost of those signings. This is why both could make the claim the board (the budget has been maintained) and JH (the budget has been cut) both statements were actually true depending on your understanding or misunderstanding of what the basic budget was. I don't go with the line that he engineered his way out I think he genuinely enjoyed his job and from my previous experience of him and his reputation he was always regarded as a straight hitter by all the people he worked with, I know the Falkirk people held him in very high regard.Yes he tried to put pressure on the board by speaking to the press which was his only lever. From my perspective the board lost the rag and sacked him. His legacy I think is being unfairly trashed by some on the forum, we played the best football since Steve Patterson's days finished 3rd in the league won the SC and played in Europe. I don't expect to see any of that repeated in my lifetime.

Have a look at our injury list after we played Astra, half a team was missing yet JH still got results. I'm not surprised he was pushing for more funds we had lost Shinnie and Watkins and he wanted the momentum he had built to continue, how can you blame someone for having that ambition, I don't buy the line "working your ticket" I don't believe Hughes wanted to leave the club but the board thought they could pull a master stroke and sack Hughes, what a joke that turned out to be. The home display against Astra minus our two best players was the most controlled match I have seen from an ICT team and I've been watching them since Patterson's time, only a goalkeeping mistake and the loss of Watkins cost us that night. We have thrown away his legacy, the team is a shambles, as proven by two points from Partick, Hamilton and Dundee two of those at home.You can soften reality any way you like but the bottom line is this shambles of a season lies at the board's door,not JH's and not RF's. As I've already said, we have thrown away two and a half years of work which was instilled into the team system that gave them an element of control in games even when we had average players/reserves filling the jerseys, what a waste.

Can't believe the number of happy clappers on this thread, I watched two pretty poor teams, we lost two goals a decent amateur side would be ashamed of and Dundee should have put us away just after half time they missed two gilt edged opportunities, it says it all I'm afraid about Scotland's top flight. Based on that performance, despite the fightback we are going down, we have no shape, no style, our defending is laughable, passes into feet don't stick, the first touch of most players is appalling, players in space play chest high passes and our forward play is based on hopeful balls played in the general direction of the forwards. I can't believe a team which looked so organised for the last two seasons could degenerate so quickly but it has. JH must be aghast watching what passes for an ICT team. To all those who lobbied for RF to replace JH I hope you are enjoying what you are watching, sometimes, you should be careful what you wish for. The fact is, despite a horrendous injury list last season JH picked up results when we had no right to expect them, that's what twenty years management experience brings. The decision by the board to get rid of an experienced manager and appoint a complete rookie on a four year contract will go down as one of the greatest ever blunders in football. All the hubris of the summer has now evaporated, go back and watch the interview with Kenny Cameron and RF and laugh out loud. Feel free to red dot me as much as you want I couldn't care less, I am angry at how a promising set up and style of play for the club was tossed in the garbage after two and a half years of hard work to be replaced by this rubbish.Were I JH I would be shaking my head at the sheer lunacy of it.

Quote If you want to make a political point please post in the appropriate forum,....then again, we don't have a forum for bizarre and ridiculous conspiracy theories. Kingsmill,a) I was not making a political point. b) it's not a conspiracy theory it's a conspiracy fact clearly you watch too much BBC propaganda http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/bbc-media-action-subversion-broadcasting-house-kazakhstan

DD Shinnie, McKay, Watkins and Christie would have gone irrespective of who the manager was, JH had no say in these, Vincent and Devine were bit part players whom the Directors were presumably happy to let go.These players had cost us nothing so the "Budget" was nowhere near sufficient to go and buy replacements which was JH's main beef with the board. Had replacements been available don't you think the club would have signed them in the summer break before RF took over? Despite the loss of those players JH still managed 7th in the league whatever you may have thought about the style of play.I have said in other posts the current squad should have been good enough for a mid table finish with an experienced manager which we don't have.

Richie's love of the club or our love for him has nothing to do with it, can he do the job or not, all evidence to date says he can't. Further, blaming the backroom staff is nonsensical, the Manager is in charge of football matters, he can overrule coaches if he thinks it necessary. Coaching is about fitness, pre set routines you are likely to encounter in matches, drills to cement good practices and improve touch, set plays offensive and defensive. The Manager sets out the team and tactics.Frankly, failure to track opposition runs would see you dropped from teams at almost any level especially if repeated and I have seen it time and time again this season.This sloppy, lazy defensive work should have been nipped in the bud but has been allowed to continue throughout the season, who carries the can for that?

DD what dreadful legacy did JH leave? First major piece of silverwear, 3rd in the league, first sally into Europe, a style of play that allowed us to control many games and a decent position in his final season despite a horrendous injury list, I would bite your hand off for that now. When I heard RF had the job I badly wanted him to succeed but knew that when we hit a rough patch as all teams do, that would be the making or the breaking of him, that is where experience shows its worth and I'm afraid to say RF has not passed that test. Paul Hartley showed how to regroup when the goals dried up after having lost his two best strikers. I'm afraid RF has no clue how to turn this around. There is no shape to the team, no movement, no passing and now the players have gone into hiding and downed tools. I can't see how the board can allow this to continue other than accepting relegation and everything that would entail. No one likes to see someone lose their job but professional football is a business like any other.

Foran condemned himself in the post match interview , he basically said the players did not want to play for him and that I'm afraid is the truth and the end of the road for RF.