Scotty

ok - I could have sworn I posted twice in this thread and other messages seem to be missing ....... what gives ?

moving this to anything goes as it stopped being football related quite some time ago. :blah01:

maybe it could be a new section of the website ......... [attach=1]

I think it depends which bit you are talking about Charles. As you know, from day 1 of this club, many of us have been loyal fans turning up at glamour games against the likes of Albion Rovers, East Stirlingshire or the stars of the cauldron that is recreation park in Alloa .... I would still be going to as many games as I could if I actually lived in the country but alas it is not possible for me at the moment but when I do travel back home, the fixture list is where I look before i even look at plane schedules or anything else !!! During this 'miraculous' rise through the ranks we have seen the club turn from a fan friendly collaborative organisation where the club knew its fans and worked with them for the benefit of both, into one which gives off the distinct aroma of a corporate entity where "them" and "us" is a more prevalent feeling and attitude. I accept that with our increased success there does need to be a degree of this as the club have to be more business like on all fronts but the simple fact of the matter is that you can be businesslike without pushing people around or treating them like s***. Supporters are also customers and you can only push people so far before you get a backlash - whether that be verbal or by the means of making a choice to no longer attend games (as some have said on here). As you mentioned ... "There was a series of incidents at Caley Thistle's final home game which resulted in a number of fans being ejected from the ground for standing. This raised a range of issues including, as far as I can see, bringing to a head a longish running dissatisfaction among some fans with the stewarding at the Caledonian Stadium". This is a prime example of the "them and us" attitude I mentioned. Fans have been complaining about 'heavy handed stewarding' at the stadium for YEARS and for years NOTHING has been done. We have had new users on here over the last couple of years describing harsh treatment received, we have had regular posters like IHE describing the fact that he was told he was "targetted" and we have had incidents where stewards have been alleged to have abused their powers to carry on a personal vendetta by accusing a particular fan of behaviour that ended up with solicitors letters flying around. Perhaps someone like IHE with his obvious passion for the club despite his self described eccentricities will actually get a result but there have been far too many incidents where the club have either done nothing or buried their head in the sand and hoped it would go away. I wont even go into details about the "family section" debacle in the main stand which was highlighted on the Caley Jaggie site when Mr Kelly was running it as that is a different subject (albeit another example of 'them' and 'us'). Perhaps we should expect heavier security now we are in the SPL ? I agree that this is indeed likely ... however, the security applied at the ground should be consistent in all areas of the ground. If you are not going to chuck out OF fans for standing up then you should not be chucking out IHE or the others for the same 'crime'. I think a lot of our fans would ***** and moan about the stewards if they were really heavy handed all over the stadium but there would be less of an impact if this was consistently applied as everyone would be getting the 'treatment'. Incidentally - prior to us reaching the SPL, the worst stewards I encountered were those at Hampden during our semi final experiences - arrogant and officious, but on the footage of the recent cup final, I swear that I saw hundreds of fans standing and cheering without the 'snatch squads' going in and ejecting them ........ I applaud the trust for getting involved in this issue. However I would expect nothing less as it was a joint initiative between them and the club. I will reserve any praise for them until we hear the final outcome of the various meetings, talks and investigations !!! I am possibly being a little unfair with this next comment - but its my opinion and I am going to state it - I hope this doesnt take too much longer or people might wonder whether there is an effort to make this subject go away by drawing it out in the hope that it will be forgotten. IT WILL NOT. On this we agree ... to a point. At the end of the day, the chief exec is the top man at the club on a day-to-day basis. Previous incumbents of his position (regardless of the actual name of the position) have been considerably more visible and accessible to the fans and therein lies a good portion of the problem. IHE asked a very valid question - "what does he do, what has he done". As a shareholder of the club, I find myself wondering the same thing. We are paying the man a lot of money and not seeing any tangible results. I have sat down with him and spoken to him on a number of occasions and he seems to be a very pleasant chap but whilst I may have opinions, I have no actual knowledge on how good (or otherwise) he is at his job as I cannot see the results. He is an accountant by qualification is he not ? so I am assuming that he was brought in partially to make sure the cost controls and fiscal management structure that David Sutherland instigated were adhered to. If he is responsible for ongoing prudency in this area then that is a very good achievement which we may not see, but we can and should appreciate. However, as the top man at the stadium, he ultimately takes the rap when things go awry and the Dunfermline game is a good example. Calls for his head are perhaps over the top but I am sure even he can understand the frustration felt by fans ejected by the club from an area they themselves setup to create some atmosphere. Charles, this is a considerable issue at clubs all over the country regardless of how much progress their club has made. I dont see how the on-field success of the club should negate the desire or right to stand. perhaps you could explain ? Should we sit down, shut up and be thankful just because the football management have put a decent team on the park or should we respond to the pleas of various managers of the club and try to create an atmosphere that they have all admitted spurs the club on - perhaps the '12th man' will actually be a factor in us climbing to the next level of progress and reaching the top 6. Lest we forget, football is supposed to be about entertainment. we pay money to go and watch the sport because we want to be entertained. For the most part, that happens on the pitch but for years now (and not just at ICT) many clubs have forgotten that supporters are customers and you should treat your customers with some respect before they become ex-customers. Stewards are there to ensure safety and aid/assist the customers, they are not there to enforce petty rules or harass people which is what they have been allowed to do unchecked. I would agree with this - there has been too much court activity surrounding Scottish Football in recent years. Fans need their voice to be heard and the SFA/SFL/SPL need to actually listen but the courts is not the place to do it.

Buchanan would be one for the future, not a replacement for Dargo .... its the younger players who might be more worried about him signing rather than the likes of Bayne, Dargo or Wyness

IHE - another fine article. Hopefully the club/directors will see how the 6 specific points that have been tailored to ICT in your posting could turn the unmitigated PR DISASTER of ejecting their own fans from an area that the club were promoting, into a nationwide PR OPPORTUNITY. The club got a lot of good press when lobbying for a reduction in the SPL stadium capacity from 10k to 6k ... perhaps this could be another initiative that shows we may be a small club but we have big contribution to make.

Flower - I think your idea is vaguely similar to what has already been suggested in one of the multiple threads on this matter although you have also addressed the 'numbered seat' portion of the rules which is good. This idea is simple, easy to implement and allows both those who want to sing and those who dont to make a choice. it would also allow those who only want to sing periodically to pick and choose --- There might be a few logistical problems for big games like Celtic / Rangers where more people want to be in there than it may be designated for but I suppose you could do a 'first come first served' limit in that area and then close it off. The one stumbling block is that this would still require the SPL to change its rules as they dont allow terracing in any form at the moment - hopefully our chairman can help them to see sense in some compromise that doesnt involve the return to terracing but permission to incorporate "safe standing areas" in stadia where the clubs wish it.

I was browsing the official site earlier and came across the section where the club list their 'codes of practice' .... It made interesting reading here are a few excerpts ...... [comments in red] - the full policies can be read on the official site [HERE] SUPPORTERS CHARTER The Supporters Charter sets out the commitment of Inverness Caledonian Thistle Football Club to give our supporters a safe and enjoyable experience of football. [li]We will consult our supporters on a regular basis both through the Supporters Trust meetings and ongoing direct communication. Supporters who are not members of this Trust will be consulted through informal activities.[/li] [li]We have and will continue to develop ways to consult key stakeholders including shareholders, sponsors, local authorities and other interested parties.[/li] [li]We will continually seek to improve the quality of service we provide for our supporters.[/li] [li]We seek to achieve the highest level of service to all our supporters.[/li] [li]We will treat all our customers in a professional and courteous manner. several reports of less than courteous incidents have arisen with no visible consequences for those at the centre of them.[/li] [li]We will try to respond to any contact from a supporter within fourteen days, unless circumstances which renders our administration unable to respond. [/li] ANTI-DISCRIMINATION POLICY To ensure full participation of all, we will not accept discriminatory practice by the management, staff, volunteers or supporters whether physical or verbal. This will be reflected in our club as normal practice, whether in recruitment of staff or volunteers, our promotional materials or general behaviour. Any form of discrimination will be looked upon as serious, will not be taken lightly and may lead to disciplinary action by the board of directors. Such as "targetting" an individual for ejection whilst allowing hundreds of others to perform the same act with no repercussions ? Whilst the first two policies explicitly include supporters, the next one does not specify and may only be applicable to staff, but it was worth including. EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES POLICY Inverness Caledonian Thistle Football Club is committed to ensuring equal treatment of all and requires all employees and members of staff of whatever level or authority, to abide and adhere to this general principle and the requirements of the Codes of Practice issued by the Equal Opportunities Commission and Commission for Racial Equality. Our employees and members of staff are expected to abide by the requirements of the Race Relations Act 1976, Sex Discrimination Act 1986 and Disability Discrimination Act 1995. Specifically discrimination is prohibited by: [li]Imposing on an individual requirements or conditions which are in effect more onerous on that individual than they are on others. Like making supporters in one section of the ground sit down or be thrown out whilst turning a blind eye to large swathes of the rest of the ground - especially when certain teams come calling ?[/li] [li]Victimisation or harassment of an individual by virtue of discrimination. Such as "targetting" an individual for ejection whilst allowing hundreds of others to perform the same act with no repercussions ?[/li]

I chose my words carefully .... I did not say "dont want", I said "not so keen". no names as I have no direct certifiable proof, only comments made to me by third parties.

congrats yah old gits :021: :021: http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/ilove/years/1980/music1.shtml http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/ilove/years/1971/music2.shtml

It will be an interesting summer as this debate rages on ...... It is my understanding that the chairman is keen on the idea of a singing section. We know for example that he went as far as to sound out other SPL chairmen on the idea. It would require the SPL to relax/change their own rules for this to happen and it is heartening that he is 'onside' with the fans on this issue as without that, there would be no chance whatsoever. However, it is also my understanding that others at the club are not so keen on the idea - I think we have also seen evidence of this in the ejections of fans at the trial run !!! Interestingly, it also seems that the police are divided on the issue too !!! Some of them are quite happy with the idea and dont see it causing them any more problems than they already face whilst others are dead set against it thinking that the 'rowdiness' will be difficult to police. I hope it is the 'top' cops whose views are more inline with our chairman or this could also put the kybosh on any singing section. as they say ..... watch this space !!!

so your finally admitting it then C100 ? either you are his father, or old enough to be him :015: :015: :015:

Glad to hear that you have had the courtesy of replies from both the chairman and the club - hope the "comprehensive response" actually gives you some explanations / assurances when it does arrive.

that is so ironic ..... :rotflmao:

Roscoe - ok - thanks for clarifying - you werent very clear about what you meant with the first comment and red card !!! Chris123 - you are right - there should be areas where supporters who do not wish (or are unable) to stand for a whole game should go and equally there should be safe standing/singing areas where those who do wish to sing/stand can go. Toronto FC have done this very well - the main (west) stand upper and lower tiers are pretty much filled with those who want to remain seated as well as the prawn sandwich brigade and the stand opposite (east) is similar. However the whole of the south end of the ground and a couple of corner sections of the west and east stands are jammed full of people who purchased tickets that were sold as "supporters section" from the outset. The supporters section has more relaxed rules such as being allowed to bring in banners and flags (not allowed in the other stands), being allowed to stand during the game (not allowed in other stands) and a few other little concessions that the club made to the fans ... **** the club even provide a storage area for drums and banners and have also produced 2 of these massive flags that go round the ground a few times during each game. have a look on youtube for some of the toronto fc clips (search for "toronto fc first goal", "danny dichio", "chantez" and such like) and you will see what they are building ... and that is a club that is only 6 months old !!! I remember when ICT actively sought the opinions and ideas of its fans ...... :tumble:

Here are Dennis' stats ..... 1999/00 = 05 (32 appearances) = 15.625% strike rate (DIV 1) 2000/01 = 26 (37 appearances) = 70.270% strike rate (DIV 1) 2001/02 = 22 (46 appearances) = 33.608% strike rate (DIV 1) 2002/03 = 27 (44 appearances) = 61.364% strike rate (DIV 1) 2003/04 = N/A - HEARTS PLAYER 2004/05 = N/A - HEARTS PLAYER 2005/06 = 11 (34 appearances) = 32.353% strike rate (SPL) 2006/07 = 03 (22 appearances) = 13.636% strike rate (SPL) TOTAL = 94 (215 appearances) = 43.721% strike rate (ALL) Think these speak for themselves ........ a slow start in 1999/2000 as he settled in to his new team and a slow season last season because he spent a long time out injured and made short appearances as a sub when he did come back from injury. Other than that, his strike rate is pretty **** good for a striker, in fact, 2000/01 in particular could probably be described as spectacular !!!! By comparison here are the same numbers for Dargo 2005/06 = 20 (38 apps) = 52.631% strike rate 2006/07 = 12 (29 apps) = 41.379% strike rate TOTAL = 32 (67 apps) = 47.761% strike rate - a pretty good strike ratio as we know and Bayne .... 2004/05 = 7 (42 apps) = 16.667% strike rate 2005/06 = 2 (19 apps) = 10.526% strike rate 2006/07 = 8 (43 apps) = 18.605% strike rate TOTAL = 17 (104 apps) = 16.346% strike rate pretty woeful for an out and out striker but we know Bayne is often the provider for someone else. and McAllister 2005/06 = 1 (18 apps) = 05.556% strike rate 2006/07 = 3 (24 apps) = 12.500% strike rate TOTAL = 4 (42 apps) = 09.524% strike rate horrendous for an out and out striker - good job he is young and there seems to be a marked improvement from 05/06 to 06/07. Maybe a stint away with the U20 Scotland team and a boost in confidence can help him start banging a few in as we know he has the ability. also - only 10 of his 42 appearances have been from the start so he hasnt had a full 90 to score in 32 of his games ... many being just 5 or 10 minutes at end.

for one so fond of the wind up and jocularity that is very eloquent and non-aggresive :clapping03: :clapping03:

There is no legislation covering Scotland. UEFA stipulates stadia should be all seated for european competitions (but not that you actually need to sit down !!), the SPL has its own rules which it brought in voluntarily that fans should not be allowed to stand in seated areas and has reinforced that rule by pointing out (threatening ?) to clubs that local authorities may have safety certificates reviewed if they dont comply with it .... Why ? This is a valid topic and one which has affected a number of our most passionate fans who were trying to take advantage of the singing section promoted by the club and supporters trust only to find out that the club or certain individuals acting on behalf of the club had different ideas on the day. A PR exercise that should have left a very nice feeling for the fans and the players/management (who have complained at length about the lack of atmosphere) has once again been allowed to turn into a PR and media disaster ......

good comment - wholeheartedly agree. :clapping03: :clapping03: :clapping03:

... and devotees of gospel churches stand up, sing and dance while they praise the very same lord. Question - which set of worshippers actually look like they are putting in an effort and reaping rewards by truly enjoying it !!!!! You are correct - you can sing while sitting down ..... you just cannot put the same passion into it !!!

There is no way that anyone from the club, let alone the man himself is going to answer this question online whether that is on this site or on the official site. If you are serious - and for once I think you are - then I can see only two avenues for you, or perhaps 3 1. Write to the club, or possibly the chairman and ask 2. Have a shareholder table a question for the next AGM 3. Ask the question via the supporters trust

Roscoe23 - it was CaleyD who mentioned 6 or 7 not Dennis !!! Think you have a lot to learn about 'strike partnerships' though ..... Paul Ritchie went a long time where he was not exactly prolific and had fans all over him for being crap .... but he was the man that probably setup half of Wyness' 80+ tally of goals as well as ending his ICT career on a reasonable number himself. Graham Bayne was getting a similar hounding and I am sure more players will get the same in years to come

Mantis - we are toying with the idea of a "video section" on the 2007/08 site - wouldnt mind featuring some of these old videos of yours (just the football related ones :004:)

We wont end up going to Carlisle - Gretna have a groundshare with Motherwell and will be playing all their home fixtures at Fir Park until Raydale is compliant. As they havent even got planning permission or produced architectural plans to redevelop Raydale or build another stadium, it might take a while (which is the crux of the Dunfermline / St Mirren protest)

my take on the article is similar to CaleyD ..... and it is the newspaper not Dennis who is saying not to expect goals .... the paper says "Meanwhile, Dennis Wyness has told Caley Thistle supporters not to expect him to fill the void should Dargo depart." whereas Dennis is saying "In terms of goalscoring, my second spell hasn't hit the heights compared to the first time I was here, but what you have to remember is that the club were playing in the First Division when I left. It goes without saying that I would like to score goals, but to do that in the SPL is very difficult because the standard is much higher than it is in the First Division." In other words - he wants to score loads but acknowledges that it is harder to do that at a higher level. end of (non-) story