Scotty

friendlies confirmed against County and Inverurie so far !!! ..... no doubt Peterhead, Elgin and others will be added to that list.

Not doubting the accuracy of your info LG - but how is this possible if, as you said in an earlier post "it is clearly stated in the SPL Ground Rules that standing in an all seated stadium is forbidden" ? Either it is allowed and anyone can establish a section like this or it is not allowed and Rangers are not only breaking but also flouting the rules. If they do allow a sizeable proportion of their fans to stand I would think they might be the first club to support the notion of adjusting this rule ... anything else would be hypocritical in the extreme.

DJS - Thanks for the response. Between your answer and maimie's earlier answer I think the vagueness of the original statement has been rectified. I also understand that the expanded responses from you both are 'personal opinion' and cannot be attributed as any official statement from the trust as a whole. I think one of the huge issues here is consistency. Fans have been saying for years that there is no consistency in the application of certain rules in different parts of the ground or when 'certain' teams come to call. I think everyone realises that the rules as they currently stand mean that the club has to enforce things a certain way and the all-seated rule is one of these. However, it seems ludicrous to invite fans to form a singing section and then treat those very fans with a higher level of scrutiny or to single certain ones out and then do nothing about those standing in other parts of the ground. It is also disturbing to read the accounts of how people were manhandled which seems to go against the stewarding company's own job description for a steward ..... "Providing assistance and safety advice to people attending a wide range of events including many types of sporting occasions, outdoor and indoor concerts. The ability to work within a team, displaying initiative and common sense to the benefit of the public and the occasion. No experience is necessary, however you will be required to undergo compulsory training including basic first aid and fire safety. In addition to this a "first day" induction course will be provided that will enable you to become familiar with your workplace prior to being assigned your duties."

No Maimie, I do have a reasonable grasp of the language (as does DJS) so I was actually looking at what he was saying and it amounted to nothing. It had the feel of a joint press release where the consensus was 'we need to say something without actually saying anything'. If that is the case, I would much prefer the supporters trust to retain its integrity and come out and say something along the lines of the following example as opposed to this spin. "we held discussions with the club where we put the supporters' concerns about the incidents of Saturday to them. Although nothing has been conclusively resolved we feel they did listen sympathetically to these concerns and we will be organising a further meeting in the near future to discuss the matters further when the club have concluded their own investigations. We will also be arranging a meeting for fans in the near future, to which club representatives will be invited. The purpose of this meeting will be for both sides to discuss how this initiative should move forward." My version essentially says the same thing but without using empty phrases like "it is clear that much can be learned from what happened" which is dubious and sounds like spin to say the least ....... what can be learned ? who is doing the learning ? anyhow .... moving away from the semantics of the original statement, I prefer your version which is a little clearer and gives us a better idea of the path..... [li]concerns have been put to the club [great - just what was asked for][/li] [li]club will investigate these concerns - [thats fair enough - they need to do that][/li] [li]further dialogue after investigation - [exactly whats needed][/li] [li]stewarding an issue, club sympathetic - [i hope so -THIS TIME - it has been raised dozens of times and fallen on deaf ears each time][/li] [li]club to listen to fans ideas (at future meeting we presume) - [good - club can say what is possible, fans can say what they desire and a consensus can be reached][/li]

To be fair to the club on this one, this situation is not entirely their fault (kind of). I have previously been told that Errea see ICT as one of their smaller clients with a limited fanbase and they treat us accordingly. we have to submit orders months in advance and shipping takes forever due to payment arrangements and the fact that they also shut down for a summer break which i believe is common in Italy (?). when delivery dates are given to the club they are frequently not met by the supplier. personally, I would like to see us use a UK manufacturer that made strips in consistent UK sizes and delivered on time .... a UK manufacturer might even realise we are now a more prominent team than we were when we first signed up with errea.

Actually - according to the US DOJ (Dept of Justice) - most 'ganja' available in the States originated either from Mexico, Canada or from within their own borders ..... Colombia and various islands in the caribbean are way down the list !

We'll be lucky to be wearing them for the first game of next season if previous errea delivery schedules are anything to go by :023:

No disrespect intended DJS but that statement does not answer a **** thing. Comment: The Trust took to the Club the concerns of fans about events at the game >> And the response ? Comment: It is clear that much can be learned from what happened and further dialogue and investigations are required to complete this process >> Has anyone actually held up their hands and said 'we were wrong' or is it all the fans' fault again ? Comment: However, we are pleased that the Football Club remains committed to the Singing Section becoming a permanent fixture at the Tulloch Caledonian Stadium >> Are they just as committed to allowing certain stewards to continue to treat fans with utter disrespect and physical intimidation bordering on assault ? Comment: The Trust will arrange a meeting for fans in the near future, to which club representatives will be invited, to hear how fans feel this initiative should be taken forward. >> I note the use of the word HEAR rather than LISTEN !!!

I would be happy with whichever one of the following CC decided to choose : Barry Wilson, Grant Munro, Ross Tokely

offer accepted ... and I think you will see it will be easier for you (and others who want to submit content) with the changes we are going to be making to the site during the close-season. ..... now for some match reporters ......... any volunteers ?

not coming to Toronto - was refused an entry visa: Globe and Mail

Joe .... in my defence, I did say "I agree with others who say 'standing areas' should be brought back and it is within the power of clubs and national bodies to do this quite easily. UEFA dont say you cant have them ... only that you cant use them for certain games." The SPL and other British footballing authorities seen to revel in trotting out the words "Taylor Report" or "Hillsborough" at every opportunity, and although I dont want to belittle the events at Hillsborough, the reality is that SAFE standing areas are in fact easily achievable.

Definitely well done to both Graham and Granty ..... Barry will be receiving the website supporters' award this week at the supporters club do .... this has been an officially recognised award in the yearly stats for a few years so the records will show he did get something :004:

I wouldnt be too sure about that - we have got things done before - now that we are unofficial again, I wont be accepting any more 6am phone calls telling me to shut the forums down, nor removing posts on this matter unless there are specific complaints containing credible and specific reasons for doing so. I have had a look at the logs for this weekend and there are some very interesting IP addresses showing up - and I dont mean the press. :004:

very good letter/e-mail Mee - very clear, concise and to-the-point. :clapping03:

should get your not inconsiderable erse over to a Toronto game my friend .... here you would be feted as a passionate supporter generating atmosphere rather than a troublemaker .......

seems to be a regurgitation of earlier stories ..... would love him to stay but doubt we will be able to match other offers he might receive.

This whole thing is a can of worms ...... with every person / organisation being able to wiggle out of it somehow. After reading most of the comments on here over the last couple of days there are a few points I would like to raise. 1. UEFA / FIFA have declared that stadia should be all seated to qualify for certification. This is true whether you are in Scotland, England, Europe, South or North America or anywhere else in the world. [bMO Field in Toronto for example has just been opened as a 21000 all-seated stadium. All seated bacause it has to be as it is a venue for the U20 world cup in July] 2. I believe the relevant 'article' in UEFA's statutes is Article 16 - which says the following [li]1 Seats for spectators must be individual, fixed (e.g. to the floor), separated from one another, shaped, numbered, made of an unbreakable and non-flammable material and have a backrest of a minimum height of 30 cm when measured from the seat.[/li] [li]2 The use of temporary stands is prohibited.[/li] [li]3 The stadium must be equipped with refreshment and catering facilities for all spectators in every sector of the stadium.[/li] [li]4 In addition, the stands must meet the following requirements: [li]Category 1 - Matches can be played before standing spectators.[/li] [li]Category 2 - Matches can only be played before seated spectators, with any sector for standing spectators kept closed (bench seating of any description is prohibited and will be regarded as standing accommodation).[/li] [li]Category 3 - Matches can only be played before seated spectators, with any sector for standing spectators kept closed (bench seating of any description is prohibited and will be regarded as standing accommodation).[/li] [li]Category Elite - Matches can only be played before seated spectators, with any sector for standing spectators kept closed (bench seating of any description is prohibited and will be regarded as standing accommodation).[/li] [/li] 3. Whilst UEFA statutes do dictate that stadia at SPL level should be all-seated they do NOT actually say that the supporters have to sit in them - common sense might dictate this but the rule doesnt actually say it !!! 4. However - the SPL DID issue a press release/memo on the matter in 2005. This can be seen on the site at the following link: 'Its a Stand but You must Sit'. It basically says that local authorities might remove safety certifications for areas of grounds where clubs dont enforce the policy. Again this does not appear to be a 'rule' but more of a shot across the bows of those who would ignore this. so thats the legal or 'suggested' mumbo jumbo out of the way ....... onto the day in question. Again, I have gleaned my opinions from what others have said and not from experience so I may be off the mark a little. please feel free to correct me where I am wrong :004: 1. The normal 'match commander' was not available. The chief exec stands in for him. Knowing how things work at ICT, he was probably told to do it at the last minute and quite likely to be unaware of things that John Sutherland may have allowed to pass without sanction such as the first trial of a singing section that could reasonably be expected to be 'boisterous'. 2. In his defence, he appears to have been following the rules and 'suggestions' from the SPL and others. But he may have to shoulder the blame for allowing the application of these rules to have been too rigid !! 3. We have had an issue with the stewards at the TCS for YEARS. Complaints of harassment, poor treatment, lack of courtesy, arrogance and other things have fallen on deaf ears for those same number of YEARS. The perceived omnipotence of certain stewards seems to be at the crux of many problems within the TCS. 4. As we were not in the control room, we do not know how firm the CE told the stewards to be but from experience we know that certain ones when given an inch will take a **** site more than a mile. The singing section appears to have been a godsend for those particular ones and it distresses me to hear stories from fans of treatment that would get them a criminal charge for Breach or Assault had the roles been reversed. THIS MUST BE ADDRESSED ONCE AND FOR ALL WITH FAIRNESS AND CONSISTENCY APPLIED THROUGHOUT THE STADIUM. If you are applying one rule, then you are applying it to all at every game. You cannot be selective (eg. Old Firm). 5. If you are going to nail supporters for standing up in a designated singing area - its very difficult to get an atmosphere going when sitting down regardless of what anyone says to the contrary - then FORGET IT. You may as well not bother and just hand out a packet of murray mints to everyone entering the stadium so they can rustle the papers as they open them. ============================ I agree with others who say 'standing areas' should be brought back and it is within the power of clubs and national bodies to do this quite easily. UEFA dont say you cant have them ... only that you cant use them for certain games. ICT are not at fault for the 'rules' imposed on them but there was obviously a problem with the application of them (and this is NOT the first time we have been able to say that) so they DO have to shoulder the blame for at least a portion of this. Whether more blame lies at the door of the CE or whether it is the fault of the stewards, supervisors, the fans themselves or a combination of all parties remains to be seen/investigated and I urge anyone with details to email the supporters trust so it can be a matter of record and also so that the answers to these questions are not swept under the carpet. Finally .... just for contrast As I mentioned on another thread - I was at Toronto's game this weekend against Chicago. 20000+ fans in an all seated stadium. Firstly, the stewards at BMO Field are pleasant, polite and seem to be there to enjoy themselves while assisting fans where required or giving them a nudge to behave if required (ie. I saw one chap quite politely tell a supporter who lit up a cigarette that it was not allowed and could he please put it out or pop outside via gate 3 to finish it - he did it firmly but with politeness and there was no hint of trouble). For the duration of the match every single supporter in the 'supporters section' (about 6000 of us) was standing up. Its all-seated but there were no batallions of stewards wading into the crowd to force us back down, instead, they just watched the crowd to make sure there were no apparent safety issues, which there were not. When Toronto scored the first of its 3 goals the stadium erupted with everyone dancing around and for the rest of the game the singing and chanting got louder and more 'active' - again the stewards did not feel the need to quash this uprising. They simply kept watch to make sure there werent actually any real issues to deal with. They did move in when a streaker tried to invade the pitch, and also when several fans went onto the pitch at the end of the game but they did not wade into the crowd to pull people out for simply enjoying themselves ...... The Chief Exec has been 'out there' for the last several months meeting supporters groups, turning up in bars where supporters were having events or watching away games and generally asking the fans "what can we do for you ?" ... isnt that refreshing !!!

yeah - nice one Richard and Rory ..... heard the in-stadium bookies took a bit of a hit on this game too more for the result than the scorers though.

happy birthday Andrew - and thanks for all your help with the match previews this season.

Gravy - did you make it to the sheaf ? was sure I saw you heading back down Bathurst as I came out onto the patio .... shorts and a white ICT top perchance ? you were too far away to hear me shouting to you. I threw a quick site up with photos from the games if anyone is interested ........ TORPICS.COM

Yup - yesterdays game had everything ..... 20000+ crowd again, the seat cushion frisbees when the team scored, 4 goals, 2 sendings off, a streaker (almost), as well as the pitch on fire when some ersehole lobbed flares onto it .... but through it all the stewards in the supporters section were courteous and friendly and did their job well ... which was to ensure our safety and help us with any queries we might have as opposed to laying down the law and acting like someone important.

and then watch the FBO's being handed out to those that dared to create an atmosphere

Point 1 - please dont use such a horrible font/colour combination. Point 2 - please read other threads first before starting another on the same subject - there are quite a few already about yesterday and the events of it. as for the content - tend to agree with you (once i could read the blue text on red background !!!

very sorry to hear all this .... a great idea spoiled by over-officiousness and jobsworthiness somewhere along the chain of command. I might add, that I have just come back from Toronto FC's game against Chicago at their sold out 20,000 seat stadium. My tickets are in what is labelled 'the supporters section' which is basically the singing section and although you are supposed to be seated, not a single person in the whole of that stand (about 5000 people) was chastised, castigated, ejected or arrested for enjoying themselves ..... might be one of the reasons TFC have sold more than 14,000 season tickets and have a two year waiting list for new applicants already !!!