CaleyD

They didn't have a "Works for Pies" one, so I had to make do with that.

East End Inn was great, just a shame the roadworks set us back far more than anticipated and we couldn't have spent longer there. A much appreciated buffet, friendly staff and the locals I was speaking to outside were good craic. Just goes to show that you should never judge a book by it's cover and if I go down for the next away game then I'd happily go back here again. On the subject of pubs, I'd also add that we were made very welcome in Legends (at the stadium) after the game. Great setup Dunfermline have there.

Oh fookin joy, another strip that it'll be impossible to read squad numbers on!!!

I've got a couple of spare seats on a minibus I'm running, but you'll need to contact me this evening (I'm normally around till early hours) as I'm going to be non contactable for most of tomorrow. PM me if interested.....first come, first served.

I wouldn't imagine we'd have Esson on the bench if his participation was altogether impossible. Think it was reported that he had a mild groin strain....which is probably something he could play through if needed, but not worth aggravating for the sake of it. Allison, I believe, was only thought of as 3rd choice....but he's had a good pre-season and a couple of solid performances which might have pushed him up the pecking order a bit and removed the need to bring someone in as a #2. Not sure if we have any other young keepers who could be though of as the possible #3 or if we could still be looking to bring another one in....perhaps even a loan deal.

If Esson is still carrying an injury (the reason he was on bench last week) then there's every chance we'll have Allison in goal.

I want us to go back up, I hope we'll go back up and I think we have as much chance as the next team of promotion this season. However, I won't be using promotion as any kind of measuring stick on which to base opinion of this seasons performance/outcome. To do so is only asking for trouble and it will only lead to endless moans and complaints every time we fail to secure 3 points in a game. I'm going to try and take the season one game at a time and enjoy it as much as possible. So long as the players are out there putting in the effort then that'll be good enough for me, and if that's enough to put us top of the table come the end then all the better.

It's nothing personal, it's just that there's a lot of misinformation and scaremongering being pedalled regarding the whole situation and given that most clubs in this country (including us) are just one wrong/bad decision away from the same situation, I feel it's important to correct the errors an assumptions being made. That might come across a little pompous and "I know better than you", but that's not my intention and my posts might seem a little long, but that's because I've tried to back up my points with reasoned argument. I've come to the conclusion that being a Site Admin must be a bit like being on the SFL League Management Committee. You have all these people out there shouting at you to grow some balls and make the right decision, even though you are of a mind to try and cut people as many breaks as you can. You have all these voices telling you that a certain individual is making a mockery of the league/forum and something needs to be done about it for the larger good. You throw out a compromise and that's not deemed sufficient, so you listen to the people and you take action....only to find that they then all turn on you and tell you that you've got it all wrong and that your actions are heavy handed and done with little thought for everyone else. In short, the League Management Committee were on a hiding to nothing and would have been wrong no matter what they did.....and that's a situation I can certainly relate too!!! Re "bit between my teeth"....it says it all in my Avatar

No they weren't, banks have been clamping down on football clubs for a few years now. It was the bank calling in a fairly small overdraft at St Mirren that triggered their selling up and moving to a new stadium. It's this kind of attitude that's getting clubs into trouble time and again. They are like any other business and they should have to budget/plan accordingly to income and the pattern of that income. This mentality that it's somehow acceptable for clubs to run up debts...even in the short term...has to stop before any progress can be made in improving things across the board. Given how the whole Football Industry has been going to the dogs financially for years, it's not before time that banks stopped putting the profits of their shareholders at risk by lending so heavily to football clubs. Again, a very dangerous and damaging mindset....Football Clubs have no right too, and are playing a dangerous game by expecting rich sugar daddies to run and fund them. Seriously, what is the basis of this total arrogance among football fans that makes them think they have a god given right to run as they please and have people throw money at them and then, when it goes wrong, play victim and expect every man and their dog to bend over backwards to be lenient on them or bail them out.

It already happened previously with Gretna, so where people get the idea from that this is a new thing and Livingston FC are the first to suffer I don't know. Livi were relegated from the SPL, they were in administration and the SFL then relegated them to Div 3 before they eventually went totally bust before the season started. The only difference was that it happened in time for them to be replaced. It's also worth keeping in mind the the SFL and SPL operate on different rulebooks, so any precedent set in one league does not automatically apply in the other.

Yes, but the main for keeping Livingston in Div 1 was that it Airdrie and Cowdenbeath would lose out from being promoted because they're not prepared and/or don't have the squads to compete at a higher level and they would be disadvantaged also. If you accept that, then you also have to accept that the Airdrie representative would have voted in favour of keeping Livi in Div 1 as he wouldn't want to disadvantage his club. If you don't accept that, then they must be happy to be promoted and that removes the whole "other clubs being messed about" argument and makes the SFL decision the correct one because only Livingston have been punished. As I said to a Livi fan.....you can't have it all ways!!!

A Wum a day is the only way :)

The meeting last week was called by McGruther in order to tell the SFL that they could or could not fulfil the fixtures for the season. As part of that meeting their was discussion surrounding what might be acceptable to the SFL in terms of a guarantee that they could fulfil fixtures. The consortium gave assurances that even if they could not obtain the Massone shares they would fund Livingston (whilst in Administration) for the next 12 months. Their was insufficient LMC/SFL representatives at the meeting to give any assurances on anything, it was suppose to be a meeting where information was exchanged and those representing the SFL could only give their opinion on what may be acceptable to a full LMC committee. Given that 3 or 4 of those present from the SFL have "Livingston" connections, it's not surprising they were making all the right noises in terms of trying to help Livi as much as they could. The SFL never asked for the bond, the consortium offered to pay a bond as their guarantee that fixtures would be fulfilled....and asked how much that would be. They were not given a figure at the meeting, this was sent to them (The Livi Consortium) afterwards. It was given as an "if we did accept a bond, this is how much it would need to be" not as a "pay this bond and you can stay in Div 1 with no other penalties" BS, Football needs to learn to live within it's means and wake up to the fact that the reason these "businessmen" are rich is because when push comes to shove they look after #1 and if that means screwing over and casting aside one of their play things (football clubs) then they'll do it....and fans are stupid and gullible enough to let them waltz in and out doing it time and again. Some might call what Sutherland did to make our debt disappear "jiggery pokery" but you can be sure...in fact you can be 100% certain that what we were told is not what happened and that he is the person who stands to gain most from that particular slight of hand parlour trick....thankfully not everyone is blind to what really happened. Livingston couldn't/can't afford to honour player contracts in the 1st Division, so it makes no difference. The moment the club go into full administration and draw up a CVA they will be included and they'll be told they can walk away or take a new reduced deal....so Livingston FC are not "lumbered" with, and not likely to be lumbered with, paying 1st Div wages in the 3rd Div.

Livingston FC..the club, the name..have benefited from the actions of all those past owners/directors/chairman. It's that overspending that pulled them up through the leagues and kept them in existence for 14 years and the only way to right that wrong is to put them back to the beginning and make them start again. The only reason Massone has not been punished is because the Livi Consortium paid him off...that was their choice, and the moment they bought those shares, they bought everything that came with them. They went into this eyes wide open, they knew the severity of the debt, they knew that their was the very real chance that they would face sanctions from the SFL. As for the fans...as I've said elsewhere, and it doesn't just go for Livingston fans...they gave up the right to play the victim the moment they sold/sell out and pass control into the hands of an individual or a small group of individuals. They were/are happy to take all the glory that comes with the money these guys spend and until it all goes wrong they are happy to bury their heads in the sand. If the fans are not willing to accept the risks, then they should keep control of their clubs....that's the only way they can assure that they are run the way they want them run. Don't get me wrong, I don't think people like Massone, Flynn, Keane (at Livi) and the many others at clubs all across the country should be allowed to create these situations and walk away...but they have been doing it for years and nothing has been done to prevent it. We, the fans, have not learned from the mistakes and problems over the years, and until we do, and until we take action then it will continue to happen time and again. There is people at Livingston who have been shouting about this for a while, just as there's those among our own support (me included) who have been trying to get fans to wake up and realise that unless we ask the questions and keep tabs on what happens at our club then we could all face the very same fate. The "it'll never happen to us" and the Board know what they are doing" excuses for taking no interest are the reason why Gretna went to the wall, why Airdrie went to the wall, why Livingston are in the mess they are in, why Hearts are never more than one court action from the end, why there's more insolvent than solvent clubs in this country who are all living on borrowed time and are one bad/wrong decision away from oblivion. The whole game is in a mess and everyone involved, be it fans, shareholders, directors, owners and football associations has to take responsibility because so long as we keep passing the buck and pointing the finger at each other and everyone else then nothing will change and we'll only see these events become every more frequent. The SFL have sent a message saying that if you spend beyond your means and benefit from that on the park then you will be punished and they will rectify the situation by sending you back to the start. Livingston should be lucky they never expelled them from the league altogether and it's only this attitude that exist amongst sports business that we all have some kind of duty to keep everyone in existence that has saved them. The only person with ANY duty to keep them in existence is themselves and their customers and the rest of us should not be expected to tolerate cheating just because it might prove a little inconvenient to dish out appropriate punishment.

Hold your horses just a moment. This is the 3rd time in 14 years that Livingston FC have been in administration and this is the first time they have been punished in any way shape or form. They have climbed through the leagues, paid wages for players they could not afford and done creditors out of over ?11 Million in the process. Whilst I have some sympathy for fans, they were happy enough to see these debts being accumulated and written off by way of CVA's whilst all the time it was bringing them success on the park. It's only now when the success is no longer coming and they face oblivion that they start playing the "don't blame/punish the fans or those trying to save this club...it was the bad Italian man" card. They have learned no lessons and done little to prevent this happening time and again. Are you honestly suggesting that they should be allowed to continue to reap the benefits of those actions by staying in the Div 1 and giving them money from a league at a level they have not achieved by honest means? The only message that allowing them to stay in Div 1 would send out is that it's ok for teams to buy success with money they don't have and continue to benefit from that even after they get found out. I would imagine that Airdrie and Cowdenbeath would have had to agree to being moved up a league before the decision was made and the early hassle will more than compensate them in the longer term with increased gates/revenue.

This is the kind of panic the Livi fans and the new consortium will be pedalling, but...at worst...the only games that would be postponed are those involving Livingston, Airdrie and Cowdenbeath....which is likely to happen regardless of an appeal as some teams looking at home games will now be away and vice versa and may not be suitably prepared. Livingston could only bring an appeal if they have further information to bring to the argument that has not been already considered, or they believe that the decision breaches an existing rule or the law. An appeal on any other basis would/could/should be rejected. Livingston certainly do not have the power or cause to put all fixtures in doubt.

For the reasons I stated above, there's still room for these guys to get in there and make a few quid whilst keeping the club alive. Does anyone honestly believe they would throw hundreds of thousands at Livingston (regardless of what league) because they thought they could make their money back from the football side of things? Or that they were investing out of the goodness of their hearts? Give me a break!!!

Yes, but there's no secret that West Lothian Council have been looking to offload it for years. Co-operation with Livingston FC on the debt in return for a few million for the sale of the land!!! You just have to look at the background of McDougall and Rankine (especially Rankine) to see that every club he's invested in has resulted in him acquiring land and making money from it....granted, clubs tend to have benefited also, so it's not all bad. Livingston will survive, and they will find their level and McDougall and Rankine will help them with that...but they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

Take no pleasure (other than noising up the eejits among their support) in seeing any club go to the wall, but allowing them to remain in the First Division would have made a farce of the league and had a far wider ranging impact on the game than relegating them has/will. I actually don't believe for a second it will be the end of Livingston. McDougall and Rankine were not there and prepared to risk money for no reason....they were/are after the ground the stadium sits on, and demotion to the third (despite all the noises they've been making) will, to some extent, make it easier for them to get the land they seek. They are only making all the "pro-livi" noises because they need the club/fans onside and thinking they are wonderful men....it's only a distraction from the larger picture.

If you don't know, then why the comment about the score being announced next week?...and people accuse me of being critical for the sake of it!!! On your second question, see post #13 on this thread.

The club will probably announce it sometime next week.... How many times in the last couple of seasons have the club not had a report and the result up on the website within an hour or so of a game finishing (friendlies, league and cups)?

Obviously oblivious to the exploits of Rosscoe and his Brother by another Mother on Saturday then!!! :wacko:

It was only organised/confirmed at the last minute so the club weren't able to tell people any sooner.

I've not heard anything about a Fun Day happening in the near future. However, as I said towards the end of the recent Open Evening, Butcher and the Club are keen to repeat/build upon that event and it's possible something could happen nearer the end of the season.