Renegade

What's it about?

Too right. It's obvious that 4 defenders aint working, may as well just go with 2 and have the rest of the team attacking. That way you don't need so many staying back.

Why thank you. I did read though Man City were considering using it this season. Man U did something a bit different as well last season, and Roma have done it as well and that's the 4-6-0. Apparently it pulls the opposition defenders out of position and they can then attack with a front 4.

It was used up until the 40s and early 50s I believe. According to Wikipedia - 2-3-5 (The Pyramid) The Pyramid FormationThe first long-term successful formation was first recorded in 1880.[1] However in "Association Football" published by Caxton in 1960, the following appears in Vol II, page 432: "Wrexham ... the first winner of the Welsh Cup in 1877 ... for the first time certainly in Wales and probably in Britain, a team played three half backs and five forwards ..." The 2-3-5 was originally known as the Pyramid with the numerical formation being referenced retrospectively. By the 1890s it was the standard formation in Britain and had spread all over the world. With some variations it was used by most top level teams up to the 1940s. For the first time a balance between attacking and defending was reached. When defending, the two defenders (fullbacks) would watch out for the opponent's wingers (the outside players in the attacking line); while the midfielders (halfbacks) would watch for the other three forwards. The centre halfback had a key role in both helping to organize the team's attack and marking the opponent's centre forward, supposedly one of their most dangerous players. It was this formation which gave rise to the convention of shirt numbers[2] but can appear confused when applied to the classic 4-4-2 line up, i.e.: 01 ? Goalkeeper 02 ? Right back 03 ? Left back 04 ? Centre midfielder (more defensive-minded) 05 ? Centre back 06 ? Centre back ('Libero') 07 ? Right winger 08 ? Centre midfielder (more attacking-minded) 09 ? Centre forward 10 ? Offensive midfielder (playmaker) / Second striker 11 ? Left winger [edit] The Danubian school The Danubian School of football is a modification of the 2-3-5 formation as played by the Austrians, Czechs and Hungarians in the 1920s, and taken to its peak by the Austrians in the 1930s. It relied on short-passing and individual skills.

That's the big problem. For a team of it's size ICT's team has a heck of a lot of attackers and far too few defenders. Munro and Duff are the only natural centre backs in the ICT squad, and one of them is out for the season. Poor management really.

Oh please, can't you Lionel haters give it a rest. Grow up little boy. eh? i could count how many times ive seen him play well with my eyes. hes a joke. shyte left back, shyte going forward and shyte as a footballer at any level. Eh, don't think so. He was always better going forward, even when he first signed. Poor at times at left back, but not always. The impression I get though is there was some who didn't like him no matter what he did, good or bad and were desperate for him fail, and when he did it was all this "told you so! Look at me, I was right!" nonsense. Probably quite enjoyed a wee inflation in their little egos and little bit of light into their grey boring little lives when he was dropped.

4-5-1, what evidence have to seen that says that style works at home? No offence intended, but given some of the formations you come up with, you're in no position to be questioning what anyone else has to offer I believe in attacking football, especially at home. Just because my formations aren't the norm, doesn't mean that they wouldn't work. We now live in a footballing society, where everyone is petrified to concede, and that is the downfall of football. The winner of a football match is the team that scores the most goals, not the team that can keep a clean sheet. 4-5-1 isn't a defensive formation, if you leave 1 sitting midfielder to protect the defence the remaining 5 players can all be given a license to attack. With your formation Gibson & Graham would crucify us on the wings and all it would take would be a couple of cross-field passes. I understand your urgency for an attacking team but that doesn't just mean throwing all your players as far forward as you can, even Brazil ain't that stoopid! I go back to my previous point. If you score more than the other team, it doesn't matter how many they score, you win the game. After all that's the aim of the game. Melbourne FFS!!! Considering there are so few teams that play such an extravegant formation you must find football very boring. At times yes, especially the defensive showings of Mr Butcher. No wonder football has gone that way. Years ago, the 2-3-5 was the most common formation, there was more goals, more entertainment and the aim of the game was to score more than the opposition. I like to think that over time, football will return to that philosophy.

Who's that then? Oh right, Discuss. I've never heard of him, is he a new poster?

Who's that then?

Why, are you not into Cox? No , are you ? Aye, I quite like Lee Cox.

Anyone else noticed that some players seemed to have just disappeared recently. First off this season it was the aforementioned Roy McBain, and now Barrowman seems to have followed him, as well as Lionel Djebi-Zadi. Also notice that Nick Ross and Graeme Shinnie have also seemed to have disappeared recently too, who were at least playing semi-regularly this season, especially the former. It's not just this season though, Vigurs disappeared when Butcher came in, as did Hastings (as well as for part of this season) and Wood who were all regular players under Brewster. The same could also be said for the now departed Gathuessi, Byrne and McGuire who never featured under Butcher, though could be for that fact that they weren't very good. It also seemed that Mihadjuks and Duff also seemed to be going that way as well, with Butcher preferring Tokely at centre-half. Esson seems to be the only one to disappear and then return but would probably have been out the door had Fraser not been away. Does anyone know why these players are disappearing, and being replaced by Butcher's mediocre favorites, ie - Bulvitis, Stratford and Eagle. Is it a failure of managerial skills on Butcher's part? Discuss.

4-5-1, what evidence have to seen that says that style works at home? Could ask you the same about you're 3-1-3-3?? Defensive football doesn't work for ICT, especially at home. Never has. Attacking football has to return. 4-5-1 does not work, three strikers at home, that appeals to me. If you keep attacking the Pars on Saturday, that means that they'll have to hold more players back. Simple, and with Bayne probably going to run poor Bulvitis ragged, that's the best thing you can do and thus knock him out the game. Infact, can you name a team in the world that plays or has played that formation? Yes, Melbourne used it for for a good chunk of the season in the A League last year (was slightly different though, they went with the 3-4-3 with a diamond shaped midfield). They won the league, and were scoring for fun in some games. BTW - did consider bringing going with the world greatest ever formation, the 2-3-5, but with all the uproar there'd be from our boring football loving fans, I just couldn't be bothered arguing about it.

Brew was very big on that formation, and look where it got him. You'd be better off playing a minimum of two strikers at home, if not three, and forgetting the long ball, and passing to the wings along the ground to attack and attack and attack. After all, it's what Caley Stadium was built for.

4-5-1, what evidence have to seen that says that style works at home?

Your last point is the most important. Butcher seems to think that only two formations exist in football, the 4-4-2 and the 4-5-1. In fact he even says in that interview from last night, that he essentially doesn't want to play attractive, attacking football, he just wants the win. Away from home, if it works that's fine, but at home, in front of your own supporters, I think we deserve to be entertained. This defensive style might work well away from home, but it doesn't work at home, where ICT's record has been rubbish for years now. Butcher seems to go on about how there's been more season tickets sold this season than last, and there's also those (like myself and others) who go to the games regularly, but don't have a season ticket (no yet anyway). I for one believe we ought to see, no deserve to see an exciting game. For the first time in my ICT life, I've gone to games, and actually asked myself why I bother coming. It's just so boring these days and I've even thought about bringing a book on Saturday! Look at this final coming up. A few seasons ago, I'd have jumped at going down to Perth to see that. Even more so seeing the ticket prices, but I just can't be bothered. ICT will get nowhere this seasons unless attacking football returns to Caley Stadium. Holding back a bit seems to work away, but playing 4-4-1-1/4-5-1 at home is ridiculous. It's ineffective, it's boring and it's a rip off to the fans. I personally, and I suspect I'm not the only one, do not ask to see ICT win the league, do not ask to even see ICT win, all I want see is a good game. Under Butcher and Malpas, we see the complete opposite.

HT - ICT 1-2 Dunfermline Athletic FT - ICT 1-4 Dunfermline Athletic ICT 1st scorer - Cox Pars 1st scorer - Bayne Attendance - 2,516

Going by the P and J today, the mighty world-beater that was Dean McDonald is being looked at by Celtic. He was also on Arsenal's books when he was a youth player.

You gotta bare in mind though, that after his injury he was apparently a shadow of the player he was.

Why, are you not into Cox?

Attacking football at home for me - -----------------------------------------Esson--------------------------------------------------- -----------Tokely-----------------------Munro-----------------------McBain------------------- -------------------------------------------Cox---------------------------------------------------- ---Hayes--------------------------------Imrie----------------------------------Djebi-Zadi----- ----------------Sanchez--------------Barrowman-------------Foran--------------------------- Subs - Allison, Proctor, Rooney, Ross, Golabek/Shinnie/Duncan

According to Imrie in the Record the other day, today/tonight there's going to be, or was a "bounce friendly". What's a bounce friendly? Where is this bounce friendly? Who's in this bounce friendly? Can I go to this bounce friendly?

True, but you still gotta know what to do tactics-wise. Even at St Mirren he was credited with playing exciting attacking football.

Stupid formation. Deserve to get beat if you go into a game like that.

Oh please, can't you Lionel haters give it a rest. Grow up little boy.

Nah, I'd bring someone else in. Barry can be involved if he likes, but I'd probably have someone else lined up. A bit like that one then...? Oh and I nearly forgot - !!!