Charles Bannerman

I have to say that I agree strongly with Renegade here. No offence, but quite frankly I just can't think of a dafter more backward looking idea than this. As I've said before, Caley Thistle is now too far along the road for any of the merger problems to cause it any trouble. But to resurrect what is more or less the very same daft idea as surfaced early in 1994 and made a big contribution to the scenario which then almost made the club not happen at all is NOT a good idea! One of the most important, helpful and forward looking initiatives of all happened in the second season when black and red were incorporated along with blue in the strip and it would be very unwise to do anything which appeared to reverse that very sensible move which if it had been possible a year previously would have made the merger process a lot simpler. The other thing I would say is that although it might be nice if something happened to mark 20 years, this isn't exactly a watershed anniversary so there's no great need to push the boat out on it.

Not nearly as many as it would take to entice me to accept and such ringing endorsement from IHE! But I suspect that any club which has already been the subject of two books in its first dozen years or so really doesn't need another yet.

I can't see how you come to that conclusion unless you look on Dundee's draws in their last three games or Falkirk's win and two draws in theirs as "up a gear". In fact from their last four games, Dundee and County have both taken six points while Falkirk have taken 8. I would suggest that this is not a massive inroad into County's situation and although their lead did get cut from 5 points to 3 yesterday, they still have two games in hand and Dundee and Falkirk play each other on Tuesday night so either or both will drop points.

:clapping: :clapping:

MacRitchie (Calder), Brennan (S. MacDonald), McAllister, Andrew, Scott, Noble, (Hardie), D. MacDonald, Lisle (Mitchell), Hercher, Presslie (Smart), Robertson. Come to think of it, more than half of that lot still live locally with some still playing in one shape or form or another - in fact is Biscuits (Steve MacDonald) not still on Clach's books? Then you can add in Grassa who played in the first league match and Charlie (who was injured at that time which is why Mark McAllister was the first player to reach 50 appearances (official ICT trivia question that!) as well as Billy Urquhart who came on as a substitute in the last game of that first season. Another thought might be that a 20th anniversary could equally appropriately be celebrated on August 13th 2014 which would be two decades on from the first SFL match 5-2 at home to Arbroath. Maybe Herchie would oblige with another hat trick!

Oh dear me Dougal... why do you keep perpetuating this urban myth which is out of the same stable as Celtic fans in Seville? Yes, when the combined attandance at Thistle and Caley home games was a few hundred in 1993-94 and no one realised what was possible for Inverness football it was a big deal. But consider this.... * The biggest number of people who ever voted against the merger was 226 and that was after the highways and byways had been scoured (by both sides) to get people into the First Battle of Rose Street. * Many of these have now been coming to games for years. * Over the last 18 years, quite a few of them have actually died. * Several more will have left Inverness. * As a result, there is only a handful of people still resident in the area who used to attend Highland League games but remain TCS refuseniks. And this in the face of a core home support of around 3000. It's a drop in the ocean.... a positive episode of flatulence in a force 10 gale! I have to say I agree with Caley D (yes, you heard that here first folks! ) in that ICT's heritage IS something to be proud of.... which is why I wanted to add the preliminary chapter to the online version of Against All Odds on here. The one that always amuses me is the old anecdote "but there's loads of people at my work who don't go any more". I'd actually be intrigued to know what particular axe Dougal has to grind with respect to the merger? Does he own the chipper in Telford Street or something?

MacRitchie (Calder), Brennan (S. MacDonald), McAllister, Andrew, Scott, Noble, (Hardie), D. MacDonald, Lisle (Mitchell), Hercher, Presslie (Smart), Robertson.

I can certainly vouch for Skinner's fitness since he's still regularly competing in road and cross country races plus the Inverness Parkrun. In fact I see him in action every Tuesday night because he's in the same training group as my daughter and he's in fine form - despite the debilitating bout of Lyme's Disease he had a couple of years ago. Indeed I am absolutely certain he would still run the legs off a number of Highland League players half his age. However I wouldn't be totally convinced Billy would want to play in a game like this, partly since he never expresses any interest in playing football these days and partly because Billy was strongly anti merger and I do believe he never had anything at all to do with the new club. I met Jimmy C in the gym at Christmas and he's keeping in good nick and although he hasn't played for a while he seemed not to rule out the odd game from time to time. Billy U is of course the oldest of the three of them and still looks in good nick. I think he makes an appearance for that team of veterans that I believe the likes of Herchie and Charlie still also turn out for. Now could someone remind me? I think Jimmy Calder may still be the oldest player to turn out for ICT. Billy Urquhart was overtaken as oldest outfield player by Craig Brewster but I can't remember if CB also overtook JC?

Presumably you now have an answer to that question Richard?

For many years Gordy's posts on here were among those I valued most highly. He never failed to have an enlightened and informed view on whatever he posted on. I'm very sorry to hear this news.

I would suggest that the conclusion of a return to the Highland League is ridiculous enough! And I'm sure you'll come up with some means of reconciling your definition above of the prime objective in football with this apparent acquiescence on your part in deserting top level football! (The quote comes from the "Matchday experience" thread.) Lower League Football and a Club to Support in the Future...or SPL Football for a couple of years and then nothing...I know which I prefer. And let's face it, we won't be the only ones forced into making that decision...some will have the balls to make the unpopular but correct decision and the rest will disappear into a financial black hole. Let's not be like sheep and follow them in!!!

Unfortunately Dougal simply doesn't understand the basic principles behind why the Caledonian Stadium is (and had to be) as it is - unless of course he has some longstanding axe to grind and is making a very tolerable effort at playing silly b*****s on the stadium issue in search of some kind of reaction. The two "prime city centre sites" of Kingsmills and Telford Street only raised £1.486M GROSS on sale - rather less than that nett once you deduct legal expenses. And even the gross figure comes to less than one third of what it cost to build the Caledonian Stadium - and access road. Also, I have been waiting for 20 years now to find out where in Inverness all these prime stadium sites are that people reckon football should be locating to? On the attendance question, yes it's true that averages have generally been in the 4000-5000 range over ICT's SPL years, but it's also true that there is a general recent downward trend across the entire SPL. I admire Luke's commendable effort at optimism when he notes that although this season's average so far is about 400 down on last, there is still a Rangers home game to come which should take the average back up. Unfortunately, a more detailed look at the arithmetic doesn't support this. There are three OF visits to the Caledonian Stadium each season of which two have taken place already. We are also exactly two thirds of the way through the season. So what we therefore still have is the third OF visit which will be needed to boost all the other 3000-3500s of the final third of the season up to about the 4140 which has been the average so far - boosted by the other two OF visits - and there's the additional consideration that two or three of the remaining home games MAY be bottom six which would tend to drag the late season average down further. Although it would be very good to see a higher figure, unless top six were to be achieved I can't unfortunately see the average for the whole season being much more than the 4140 for the season to date.

No that's not quite what I mean. What I am actually doing is to use a reductio ad absurdum argument in that what I am saying is that IF you argue that crowds even of 6500 including 2500+ visiting support, as compared with the normal total of about 3500, are not really of any great value THEN extrapolating that argument backwards, you would have to come to the logical conclusion the few hundred of Highland League or early Third Division days is also as good a scenario as any. Clearly that is an untenable and unsupportable situation (the "absurdum" part) - and that being the case, the original proposition also falls. Two further points. Firstly I wonder how the TV companies would react if there was no longer a Rangers in the SPL? For instance, how are the contracts worded? If there is an agreement for a company to have so many OF games or so many Saturday lunchtime Rangers away days, then presumably the company concerned would be entitled to rip up the contract fortwith should the SPL no longer be able to provide what the contract says. Secondly, much as I believe that having Rangers in the SPL is an important part of Scottish football's financial clout, it would be the ultimate injustice if the SPL were to act in such a way as to create one rule for one club (or by implication, two were it ever to become necessary) and another for the rest. I don't think you can use, for instance, the precedent of disposing of the 10000 seat and 31st March rules when ICT won the First Division, because these relatively minor changes actually let the SPL out of an awkward hole it had dug for itself and allowed them to dispose of patently silly rules which they quite urgently needed rid of anyway. To allow "Son of Rangers" straight back into the SPL would be far, far more fundamental and outrageously unjust and would effectively condone financial anarchy in the SPL.

What I am saying is that in the total absence of Rangers or during such period as they may make their way back up through the SFL, I see no scenario other than Scottish football's turnover reducing and I believe that this would affect ALL clubs. To try to argue that visits of the OF to Inverness are actually not all that financially beneficial due to police and stewarding costs etc is to a large extent an extrapolation of an argument that Inverness football might have been better staying in the SFL or even in the Highland League! For the sake of breivty since my piece of chicken was in danger of overcooking in the oven (!) I used the term "disciplined" in a fairly loose manner in my last post. It was really meant as a generic term for the consequences for other clubs of severe financial problems such as Airdrie reforming as Airdrie United and starting all over again via Clydebank's registration, Dundee getting docked 25pts for a second administration, Livi finding themselves back in Division 3 and Gretna getting docked 10 points before their wholly predictable demise. I do realise that there are earlier examples such as Motherwell gong into administration and getting off scot free but my basic point is that IF Rangers actually went out of business, which is an extreme outcome but is the scenario on which I have been basing much of what I have been saying, it would be grossly unjust if "Son of Rangers" were to do anything other than start all over again in D3. However, the absolute essence of my view is that Scottish football's turnover is so concentrated and polarised on two clubs whose rivalry looms so large on the landscape that if you suddenly remove one of them completely from the scenario I can see no way that some kind of house of cards situation would not befall the rest of the set up.

RiG, in slight disagreement, believes that Celtic wouldn't be able to survive without Rangers while Peter Lawwell in complete contrast says that Celtic don't need Rangers. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17013512 My own view is that so much of Scottish football's annual turnover has been sucked in by the Old Firm that if the OF ceased to exist (such as if Rangers went completely bust), this would be bound to have a severe knock on effect on other clubs. A large amount of the money which circulates in Scottish football is either directly related to Rangers or is generated by the likes of what the TV companies are prepared to pay for SPL rights. In the case of the latter, that would fall dramatically if there was no Old Firm rivalry as an attraction. For instance how might Caley Thistle do in the absence of one or two home gates every season from the visit of Rangers and also a significant drop in TV money? How much less money would then also cascade down to the SFL? How much less full time football would there be in Scotland as a result? How many fewer senior clubs would there be in Scotland as a result? Social, religious, politcal and demographic factors in West Central Scotland have led to Scotland having two disproportionately large football clubs with much of the support and money polarised around them. Other clubs live in a fragile bubble just outside that duopoly and to some extent also have to depend on it. Things muddle on for as long as this strangely Faustian arrangement continues, but if it fails - such as with the possible demise of Rangers - then the whole house of cards would be in danger of collapsing. As I have been writing, this high tech new site has told me that Caley D has just added another reply to which I would say that my understanding also is that the rules would require any "Son of Rangers" to start in the Third Division again. Anything other than that (and I wouldn't rule it out) would be a gross injustice to other clubs who have been disciplined etc. And as I said in my Highland News column last week, after all those years of hallmark triumphalistic hubris, a certain sector of the Rangers support might indeed learn a little about humility from a journey through the lower leagues and trips to the likes of Alloa, Forfar and...... Central Park Cowdenbeath!

There may no longer be a direct interest for Caley Thistle fans in the Scottish Cup but there is an indirect one tomorrow night when Terry Butcher will be partnering Chic Young on BBC Radio Scotland's Open All Mics at Ross County's fifth round replay versus St. Mirren in Dingwall. 810 Medium Wave. Kick Off 7:45pm. There will also be two reporters at each of the other two replays.

CMIB...his 10 goal feat places him at Caley in 1952 and the Thistle history says he won an Inverness Cup medal with them. Thistle's honours list says they won the Inverness Cup in 1953-54, placing him there at that point, so no conclusive evidence there as to where he was in 52-53. Team lines in old papers would confirm one way or another.

As far as I can see the records Alex is looking at are spot on. The ones I am looking at are the official centenary histories of both clubs - Caley All The Way (1986) and The Hub Of The Hill (1985) - and the former confirms to the letter what Alex has said about Caley. The Thistle booklet shows that, although this wasn't any purple patch for them, they actually did better than their town rivals during the period in question, winning the North Cup in 52-53, the Inverness Cup in 53-54 and the apparently short lived Scottish North Cup in 55-56, although none of the three "majors". I have pasted below a passage from the additional chapter of Against All Odds on the Highland League which I wrote last summer and which, as many members will know, now appears electronically and in entirety on this site. This also shows that the real "big" move of the decade was actually from Telford Street to Kingsmills! Caley won back to back titles between 1950 and 1952 at a time when their ranks included the legendary goalscorer supreme Andrew "Jupie" Mitchell along with "Ginger" MacKenzie. Jupie hit the headlines when he scored all 10 goals for Caley in a 10-3 Qualifying Cup defeat of Fraserburgh in 1952 but it was at Kingsmills, where he went the following year, that he really made history. Research in 2010 by Nairn based journalist Donald Wilson and former Caley secretary Ian Davidson revealed that it was Jupie with 77 league and cup goals for Thistle in 1955-56 who held the all time Highland scoring record and not that other scoring legend Davie Johnston who amassed 73 for Nairn some seasons later. But despite the talents of the likes of Jupie, the latter 1950s were a fairly fallow period on the Highland scene at both Telford Street and Kingsmills. After Thistle's league title in 1936 it would be into the 70s before the trophy would return. And Caley's back to back successes of the early 50s provided their only league flags in a period of over 30 years until they won again in 1964, which is my own first recollection of being a football supporter.

I have now checked the BBC's contractual situation and, as I thought, in a situation where many clubs have their own online commentary, the BBC contract only allows for commentary received within the UK. Open All Mics appears to be classified as commentary and is indeed 6,7 or 8 simultaneous ones, although it seems that this didn't become apparent until a later date. So unfortunately, in an era when a number of clubs do their own thing, BBC Scotland only has the rights to broadcast commentary within the UK.

Bughtmaster... unfortunately it's only now that I'm able to reply to your earlier post, but as a local journalist who follows ICT's financial affairs more closely than most, I can now get down to responding to the two parts quoted above. On the first point, Scotty has already confirmed that the percentage of ICT's income going to directors and shareholders is, and always has been, ZERO - apart from a period of about two years late in the last decade when the Director of Football's job was regarded as a paid post within the club and annual remuneration in the £40K bracket was paid. This has since been discontinued. The notion of a shareholders' dividend is inconceivable and the directors, other than the above exception, have never been paid either. On the contrary, over the years a number of them have contributed significantly to club finances. I'm not sure what you mean by "capitalistic" but Caley Thistle is a business like any other football club and needs to pay its way and live within its means, otherwise it will go bust. As a result it needs to charge for what it provides (a team playing on the park) at a level consistent with what it costs to provide that. However football clubs tend to be especially lucky since, unlike other businesses, there seem to be quite a few rich people out there who seem to be prepared to subsidise their activities - and hence also the ticket prices they need to charge to stay in business. Moving on to your second point, I have to stress that it is not the primary role of the media (apart from in-house publications) to act as cheerleaders for football clubs. The media are there to report objectively on what is going on but in so doing they also generate a vast amount of publicity for clubs, keeping them very much in the public eye and hence in the market. In practice, as the only reporter who has reported on the club since (before!) its founndation, I think I can say that ICT has had a great deal of extremely helpful coverage from the local media since day one. And any Invernessian who doesn't know that huge progress has been made in local football since 1994 must have been asleep with Rip van Winkle in the Catskill Mountains for the last 18 years! However, personally I am not backward at coming forward with that very viewpoint and indeed did so in my Highland News "Sportsview" column as recently as January 12th, to mark the 18th anniversary of the election of ICT (and indeed Ross County) to the SFL. It only takes a very brief look at the back pages of the HN, the Inverness Courier or the PandJ or a quick listen to local radio to appreciate that the density of local media coverage of ICT - usually very positive because the club has done very well - is vast. However if the club feels that it has additional positive messages which it would like to get out there, then it is very free to send these to the local media in the form of extra press releases.

Scarlet, I am not an expert by any means on the contractual situation here, but as far as I am aware although I may be wrong, broadcast Scottish football is not available overseas because it is "blocked" at the request of certain clubs - of which ICT is not one.

So presumably Grampian Constabulary get tipped off about when IHE is going to be there and when he's not (minimal risk fixture).

As a journalist who walks in free of course. How frequently do you find people complaining that you don't personally pay to get into your place of work? Maybe you should also remember that it's the cash that my employers pay for broadcasting rights at these games that actually helps keep what you are charged to get in down at current levels.

Fear not Donald! I am perfectly aware of your alternative option but by far the biggest potential to cut costs would in slashing the player pool, what players could be paid and hence the quality of player that could be attracted. On the other hand if you REALLY want to cut costs in order to reduce admission prices, maybe part time football would be an even better option. The reality is that you can't escape from football's bottom line which is that in the full time game you pay players seven days a week but you bring in revenue once a fortnight. If that's the deal on offer, then it's inevitable that those who are prepared to pay for it will unfortunately have to do so handsomely.

The same applies to a club which fails to keep its books reasonably well in balance. But apart from what I've already said about reductions in ticket prices not being affordable or sustainable, I also think the actual cup situation has a lot to do with it and I'm not sure even if vastly lowered prices would make much difference to crowds. In other words when you get a televised lunch time kick on a miserable day off during a period of general financial constraint in a competition which seems to be losing its charisma in any case, there's noty a huge amount of incentive for fans to turn up in person. In addition to that, when people have to trim their expenditure, then the extra, marginal cup expenditure will be first to go rather than season ticket purchase for the whole season.