DoofersDad

There have been some very critical remarks on a number of threads on this forum in the last day or two, so for what it's worth, here are a few thoughts in the context of the game on Saturday. Firstly, let's acknowledge that it was a superb performance by Celtic. For my money, that was the best performance I have seen against us by any team, ever, Their movement on and off the ball, the accuracy of their passing, the tight control on the first touch, the speed with which they closed us down, and their ruthlessness. They were also hugely disciplined at the back with Boyata and Sviatchenko not giving Mckay or Anier a sniff. And the fact that they can afford to put a player of Christie's ability out on loan to their nearest challenger illustrates just how far ahead of everyone else they are. We lost by 6 to an excellent team at the top of their game, but it wasn't as if Fon Williams had a lot to do except pick the ball out of the net - unlike Fox for County against Aberdeen! And what made the score so high was specific instances of poor defending. Fon Williams should certainly have done better for the 2nd goal and we clearly have a problem with that position. Whether he is carrying an injury or is just short of confidence, I don't know. But he did a great job for us last year and has not suddenly become a poor keeper. Injured or not, we need better cover for him than Esson can provide. But whilst OFW can be blamed for the 2nd goal, so can the defenders - and for Dembele's other two goals. He's the top striker in Scotland at the moment (and by some distance) but nobody was marking him for any of his 3 goals. With the sheer numbers Celtic attack with, including the quality of their 2 full backs, it is nigh on impossible to pick everyone up all the time - but you must pick up their main man. Dembele is clever how he drops back or wide and then just seems to drift into the right space at the right time, but everyone was watching the ball and nobody was watching him. That really needs to be addressed. There are some basic errors being made and just as defenders need to have confidence in their keeper, the keeper needs to have confidence in the defenders. Currently we are lacking the cohesion and confidence as a defensive unit as a whole. Having said that, there was a lot that was relatively positive about the performance. Folk have criticised some in the team for a lack of effort. Vigurs seems to have taken the brunt of this. I din't see any lack of effort from any of the players against Dundee and I saw none against Celtic. I think the message is perhaps getting through that unless players give 100% every game, then we will be going down. Richie needs to continue to impress this on his players, but unlike Celtic, he has little option in some positions if players slacken off. Meanwhile, we show real promise at the other end where competition is greater for places. We have scored more goals than all the 6 teams directly above us and whilst we managed very few efforts at goal on Saturday, that was testament to their defence rather than a reflection of our weakness. We did manage to get behind their defence and won no less than 7 corners. Not many teams have done that at Celtic this season. There's lessons to be learnt from Saturday. We are nearly a pretty good team but we absolutely must address our defensive frailties. Do that and we have the potential to go on a decent run. Fail to do that or fail to continue with the desire and commitment, and we will go down. The cup's gone and Foran's not going to be sacked. It's time to focus on the league. We rightly demand commitment from the players but it's also time for the fans to commit their support to the players.

Talking of starting thing. I don't know if the "highlights" will show the Draper booking for his kick out at Brown but it would be worth having a closer look at that. Not mentioned by the pundits, of course, but he kicked out in retaliation for Brown deliberately stepping back onto his foot - Brown knew fine what he was doing.

A 6-0 defeat is hard to take, but let's just put this in a bit of perspective and compare it with results in the previous manager's first season with us. Despite taking over the side when we were 2nd in the league and inheriting a significantly stronger squad than then he left us with, in his first year here Hughes took his team to Celtic Park twice in the league where we were hammered 5-0 and then 6-0 by a Celtic team which was not a patch on the team we saw today. In the cup we managed to scrape through against Stranraer after a reply before being thrashed 5-0 at home by Dundee Utd. As for the game itself, whilst accepting we clearly have issues at the back, I thought the result was more a reflection of the quality and application of a superb Celtic side than of a poor performance from us. I've seen us play worse than that and win.

What's happening at Ibrox? The club saying they have accepted Warburton's resignation and Warburton saying that he's not offered to resign! What a shambolic club they are.

It's not a question of being positive or negative, it's about being objective. There's some on here who seem to think every critical comment is by definition negative. Nothing could be further from the truth. You can be critical and optimistic at the same time. Indeed, it is only by being objectively critical that you can identify things that are holding you back from making positive steps forward. In a footballing sense that applies equally if you are bottom of the table or it you are at the top. It is also just as important to give praise where things are good, and it is that mixture of praise and objective criticism that allows you to progress. I couldn't disagree with this more. Rather than "move on", have a conversation instead. In that way you both may come to understand why you have different viewpoints and will learn something from that. It is a failure to have a dialogue with those of different viewpoints that causes so much polarisation, mistrust and fear in our modern world. Moving on simply reinforces our own views and prejudices which may, with the best will in the world, be shaped because we are simply unaware of the issues which shape someone else's rather different view.

The reality is success requires one to be objective so that one can understand what is good and what is poor. You can then build on the former and address the latter. It seems to me that there are a number of posters who are reluctant to acknowledge either what is good or what is poor about the team and are intolerant of those who express views different from their own. Seeing as we are bottom of the table it must be obvious to even the happiest of happy clappers that all is not perfect, but equally, that does not mean that everything is wrong. Surely there is much to talk about and folk should be free to express their views and expect rational responses in reply rather than being shot down without one.

I think supporters of Hughes tend to overstate the problems caused by injuries last season. This is probably both because he complained about it so much and because the previous cup winning year was so remarkably injury free in comparison. If you look at our key defenders, Warren was out early in the season with a leg break but came back much sooner than I expected and was ever present after that. Meekings had a period out (as he has this year) but the big difference between this year and last is that this year we have McNaughton out for most of the season whereas last season Danny Devine had the most starts of any of our outfield players. Devine actually played very well to the extent that Hughes preferred him in the centre to Meekings. On Warren's return, Hughes therefore had options between Meekings and Raven at right back and also between Tremarco and Williams on the left. Those options look a good deal stronger than is available to Foran just now. Elsewhere in the side OFW was provided as cover for Brill's injury and then kept his place when Brill returned to fitness. Foran himself was always listed as long term injured but frankly he was never going to return as anything more than a fringe player. The joker in the pack was Roberts who seemed to go from one injury to the next without kicking a ball. He looked as though he might have been a decent signing but we never saw enough of him to find out. The big miss was Doran who has also missed quite a chunk of this season as well. Others who were injured were the likes of Fisher, Sho-Silva, & Ferguson who were hardly going to be game changers had they been fit. Hughes had the central midfield options of Draper, Tansey, Polworth and Vigurs available to him virtually all season along with Storey and Willams. On balance therefore, I don't think there is really much difference in the overall injury situation between last year and this. Had Hughes still been here, his record suggests he would not have signed such attack minded players as King, Cole, Anier Mulraney and Mckay. We may be bottom but I am still looking forward to the rest of the season. I wasn't saying that this time last year.

Motherwell in 5th place have only 1.04 ppg and must by any measure also consider themselves in the relegation battle. We are very fortunate that the table is not more stretched out but we do now need to pick up a few wins if we are to survive. Saturday's attacking performance will have given us confidence that we can score goals but we simply must address the failings at the back.

That was some game!. A terrific effort from the lads and good support from the crowd as well. What a difference Mckay made! But credit Foran for picking a side to play to his strengths. Having Anier and McKay up front with King wide on the right and with Draper playing behind the front two caused Dundee all sorts of problems. All four of them were excellent and put in a fantastic shift. It left acres of space wide on the left which Tremarco exploited very well. He nearly scored when he hit the post early in the first half and had chances later in the game as well. Billy M was superb, but why was he taking the penalties? He has always been rubbish at spot kicks and I'd have any of Tansey, Draper or Vigurs taking the kicks before Billy. It was great to see Tansey score but why oh why does he not provide support to the front men a bit more? How often do we see attacks break down with the ball running loose around the edge of the box and there is nobody there to exploit it. Tansey's goal was a prime example of exactly why he needs to get up the park a bit more. We could have scored a few more, but whilst that attacking performance provides hope for the rest of the season, the defensive performance provides concerns. OFW has not been at his best this season but I'm not sure he deserved to be dropped. Esson's performance was not great and he was unable to command the box. The second goal came from a corner which should never have been conceded. A cross was aimed at the back post but was well short. It should have been an easy, unchallenged take on the 6 yard line but he stayed on the line and left Warren to deal with it. Again we looked pretty fragile in the centre of defence. Clearly it was difficult for young McCart to have been thrown in to this environment and I think that it would be unfair to criticise him. He needs time to settle in and gain a bit of experience. The fact that he was on from the start clearly demonstrates the lack of defensive options we have. There is some serious work to do to make the defence more solid. I predict a 7-3 defeat at Parkhead next week! Finally a word on the referee. He made a few odd decisions but full marks to him for awarding the two penalties. Far too often we see players wrestled to the ground in the box and the referees doing nothing, so it was good to see a referee prepared to take action for once.

Let's hope that OFW doesn't copy Joe's arm actions at crosses!

My point is not that players left when he was in charge - players will always move on - it was his complete inability to bring in comparable players that was the problem.

Remember that Hughes took over when we were flying in 2nd place. He left us 5 places lower. During his tenure Ross, G Shinnie, Watkins, Vincent, Mckay, Devine, Williams and Christie left. Can you name any outfield players he signed who have remained for Foran to work with and who could be regarded as replacements of equal or better quality? (Keeper excepted OFW in, Brill out - much of a muchness). This despite the significantly higher player budget than Butcher had. Don't get me started about the style of play. Last season was the most boring football I have seen anywhere, any time.

Giving Foran a 4 year contract was a statement from the Board that they have confidence in Foran in the long run. Of course they will have appreciated his inexperience and along with that must be a realisation that he will require support and that there is an element of risk in all of this. I therefore do not think the Board will sack Foran but they really need to work hard to tease out where the current problems lie and get those sorted out. I do wonder if the Board, in appointing Foran, realised too late what a dreadful legacy Hughes had left and the long contract was almost an acceptance that dropping out of the top flight was inevitable. Four years would be a decent period for re-building a team in line with Foran's philosophy and a return to the top flight.

What depressing reading all this makes. There is barely a positive word, but then there is not a lot to be positive about. What there is to be positive about is that we do have a good squad of players (and great to get Billy Mckay back) but the big negatives are that they are almost all under-performing and our tactics are wrong. The question is - why? Lets look at a few issues regarding management and players. Whilst there have been issues up front, our problem this year has been shipping goals at the back. We have had options up front but precious few at the back. Yet in the transfer window we bring in 3 strikers but just one teenage defender. We remain very short of cover at the back. Strange. We have been increasingly reliant on the long punt despite the lack of a decent target man or having someone to play off him. Time after time the long punt up the park is easily mopped up by the opposition defence and our response is to do it more and more. Is this the manager's tactics (and if so, why?) or are players doing it as the easy option because nobody else is making themselves available? Meanwhile in Cole, Doran, King and Mulraney we have creative, pacey players who are capable of causing chaos in defences and the more we need their kind of influence on the park, the less they are played. Only recently Foran had been talking of Cole's qualities and the club seemed really anxious to extend his loan. He has been one of our best players in recent games and yet yesterday he was dropped to the bench! Why, when Foran pledged himself to "attack, attack,attack" is he not using his most creative players more? It is a basic truth that you should play to your strengths but it must be pretty obvious to everyone that we are patently failing to do that. That failing has to be down to management. But the players are not exempt from criticism. Richie said after last night's game that too many players seemed not to want the ball. That echoes what I said after the Partick game in that players just don't seem to be making the movement to either get into space to receive the ball or to make runs to disrupt the defence and make space for others. Performances have lacked urgency for a while and whilst you could say it is the manager's job to motivate players, I would say that players should not need anybody else to motivate them to give 100% every time they step onto the pitch. There are exceptions from this criticism, of course, and Carl Tremarco is the stand out here - player of the season by a country mile so far. When Graeme Shinnie left and Hughes was asked about how this would affect the captaincy and leadership on the park, he replied that he wasn't worried about that because he had leaders all over the park. One thought of players like Draper, Tansey and, of course, Gary Warren who actually took over the captaincy, It is the performance of these players which causes most concern. We need real leadership from Warren in particular both on and off the park, Has he got the confidence of his team mates? What is his relationship with Foran? What role do the players themselves have in influencing game plans? There are clearly some issues behind the scenes and the Chairman really needs to knock a few heads together, get to the bottom of where the problem lies and sort it out. After Richie picked up a Manager of the Month award things have gone steadily downhill and I think we are now probably at a tipping point. Get the tactics right, play to our strengths and enthuse the players with the approach and we can turn this round. Carry on as we are and this time next year we will be involved in another relegation battle - in the Championship. Over to you, Kenny.

The Billy of old is just what we need but I wonder if that is the Billy we will get. His recent scoring (or not scoring) record is clearly a worry but it is important to remember that Richie played in the same side as Billy and will know what makes him tick. Billy himself will know that unless he can find his goal scoring touch here then his career is as good as over. I'm sure he will enjoy resuming his place in the side with Doran and that should help both of them get back to their best. We've missed having a player in the side who has a knack of just nipping in front of defenders or swivelling on a half chance. It's not as though we haven't been getting the ball into dangerous areas, it is just that we haven't been seizing the opportunities which arise. I've a good feeling about this but we shouldn't expect miracles. He'll need time to settle back in and get his confidence back.

Good topic for a thread. I've cut and pasted what I wrote on another thread. One of the areas where we are poor is the movement off the ball. One of the things that bugged me about Hughes was the obsession with possession such that nearly every pass had to be into feet and we created very little because the ball was rarely played into spaces behind the defenders. That also meant we were slow coming forward and opponents had plenty time to regroup. It seems that this mindset has become ingrained in some players and players are not looking either for the space for the ball to be played into or to take defenders away and create space for others (Billy Mckay was great at doing that). As a result the only forward option is often the long punt. There's nothing wrong with the long punt from time to time, but it is not a game plan. We are too predictable and therefore easy to defend against. We need to be quicker coming out of defence, we need attacking midfielders to use the width of the pitch and the front men to move opposition defenders around creating uncertainty and space. We then need our central midfielders to be more positive in moving into the space created.

One of the areas where we are poor is the movement off the ball. One of the things that bugged me about Hughes was the obsession with possession such that nearly every pass had to be into feet and we created very little because the ball was rarely played into spaces behind the defenders. That also meant we were slow coming forward and opponents had plenty time to regroup. It seems that this mindset has become ingrained in some players and players are not looking either for the space for the ball to be played into or to take defenders away and create space for others (Billy Mckay was great at doing that). As a result the only forward option is often the long punt. There's nothing wrong with the long punt from time to time, but it is not a game plan. We are too predictable and therefore easy to defend against. We need to be quicker coming out of defence, we need attacking midfielders to use the width of the pitch and the front men to move opposition defenders around creating uncertainty and space. We then need our central midfielders to be more positive in moving into the space created.

We've only won 3 games all season and yet remarkably we are only 6 points off 5th place! Clearly we have some problems and unless we start winning soon then we could become adrift at the bottom, but we are not at the "must win" stage yet. Richie seemed very pleased with the draw and I think he is right to take some positives from the game. We did generally look a little more solid at the back and managed a rare clean sheet. The draw took us a point closer to Hamilton, Motherwell and Dundee and improved our points per game ratio. In Cole, Mulraney and Doran we demonstrated that we have got creative players who are capable of creating chances - and before Mulraney and Doran came on, Tremarco could have had a hat-trick! Having said that, there were undoubtedly more negatives than positives. I was actually quite shocked to hear the manager say that Warren and Tansey were up last night with a vomiting bug. If so, why on earth were they playing? They should have been resting up at home and not risking passing a virus to their team mates. Playing them will also have taken a lot out of them and they may now be struggling for fitness for Tuesday's vital game. Draper could have dropped back to centre back with Vigurs and Doran starting instead. Can't have done their confidence much good being benched in favour of a couple of invalids. I don't know if Doumbouye was also not well but that was far and away the poorest I have seen him play. With competition for places quite hot, he should have been really fired up to keep his place but he looked disinterested and his control of the ball was poor. Unless he was also unwell he may be out of the side for a while. Anier had a chance to shine but unfortunately failed to impress. He seems unwilling to head the long balls to him and instead backs into defenders in an attempt to let the ball drop and turn the defender. It's a foul every time. He seemed to work reasonably hard but rarely really made himself available. The one time he did he was harshly adjudged to have fouled a defender. He certainly would be worth another start but rather than be a target man, he needs to play off someone who can win the ball better. Polworth was another who disappointed. He also seemed rather lacklustre today and gave the ball away rather too much. He had a couple of decent chances and really should have scored when put in with a cute pass from Draper. I'm surprised Cole was taken off rather than him because I thought Cole, while not at his best, had a reasonable game. In my view, Doran should have started and if only he could get a confidence boost with a goal he could reinvigorate us as an attacking force. Mulraney did his usual trick of exciting us only to then disappoint us immediately after. He does some great work on the wing to skin defenders but more often than not completely wastes the opportunity he has created. So it's a bit of a mixed bag. I do believe we have the players who can comfortably lift us clear of the relegation zone by the end of the season, but we need players who are fit and well and we need them to be hungrier for the ball than they were today. We need players to take responsibility for driving into the danger areas and looking to shoot. We need players scoring and feeding off the confidence that brings. At the moment we look disjointed going forward and that is perhaps due more to the manager than the players. There needs to be a shake up of tactics as we seem to be playing to our weaknesses rather than our strengths. It's not all doom and gloom yet, but we certainly do need to get back to winning ways soon. There may have been legitimate excuses for today's lack lustre performance, but the bottom line is that if we play like that for the rest of the season, we will be in the Championship next season.

Television is resulting in falling crowds and at the same time television money is allowing top clubs to page obscene salaries to their players. The size of squads these clubs can afford despite the wages paid means that smaller clubs - the life blood of the game - are unable to afford decent players. The gulf between the elite and the rest widens and crowds diminish further. What I would like to see is television money used to subside the attending fans rather than going into the coffers of the the super rich players and their agents. If clubs were required to allow free entrance into televised games and TV companies were required to pay the clubs compensation for the lost revenue up to the number of people who actually attend, then that would have a lot of benefits. The TV companies would show well attended games with lots of atmosphere and clubs would get a boost from being paid back the admission charges for a bigger crowd than they would normally get. It would also introduce the match day experience to some fans who don't normally go and who might be persuaded to attend more regularly as a result. It's maybe a nice idea but it's not going to happen because those who run the game are more concerned about making money than about the long term health of the game.

I'd settle for Morton

Ah! So it is. I should have watched it on a bigger screen first. And to be fair to Boden, a nice little bit of control and lay off to Doran to set up Doumbouya's goal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-38717261 Police wanting mobile phone footage of naughtiness after the game. Was this some Elgin FC folk having a stooshie about the 8,000 unsold tickets?

Having watched the highlights it looks as though Doumbouya lifted his foot out of the way to let the ball through. He may got a slight touch which might have affected the path of the ball. He looks more to blame than Fon Williams. In any case, once a free kick is played short surely the players in the wall should be rushing forward to block. Interesting to note that in all 3 of Doumbouya's opportunities shown, it was Doran who provided a very precise ball into him. Doran does not seem to have recovered the pace he had prior to his long term injury, but he has real vision and is still going to be a key player for us for the rest of the season. I think we will create a lot of chances if we play with Cole and Doran in the side.

Richie was appointed on 30th May and the Boden deal was announced on 9th June. Looks as though discussions would have been going on in the background before Richie was appointed but it would be interesting to know whether he was in a position to stop the deal if he was so inclined. Hughes certainly made some very uninspired signings and Boden seems to fit the mould of a Hughes signing more than a Foran signing. He is clearly behind Doumbouya and Fisher in the pecking order and with 2 more strikers signed I can't see him getting much game time for the rest of the season. I can't see anyone coming in with a bid for him so maybe shipping him out on loan would be the best option. A bit of game time at a lower level may see him gain a bit more confidence and give him the opportunity to show us all what he is capable of.

It's a great draw for us. For a start it will bring in some money. If we win then we will get a huge boost and even more money. If we lose then at least we go out to a side which is expected to beat us. We would be able to focus on league survival without the distraction of a cup run and without the morale sapping knowledge that we have gone out to a side we should have beaten. The danger is that we get totally hammered. Celtic are very strong and we are somewhat vulnerable at the moment. Getting beat 5-0 would be very deflating but there is no real reason to think that is going to happen. Given our record against Celtic in the cup I would imagine that they would rather have avoided us. They know they should beat us comfortably but they also know how embarrassing it would be for them to lose to us yet again. As long as we make a good account of ourselves then we can be happy with that and can then focus on the main business. Actually it is a decent draw all round with a potential Edinburgh derby, County v the Dons and a guarantee that 2 sides from the lower divisions reach the last 8. By the way - any chance of signing Paul Sheerin in the January window?