Livingston FC

[CaleyD]

The timing is unbelievable, it's 60 hours roughly until the start of the season and unlikely the league's can go ahead as planned.

Ross County were to play Livi on Saturday, now they won't.. they will play Airdrie (now promoted).

Or will they? I think a appeal will be launched so no match will take place, Airdrie will be in limbo as will Livi as will Cowdenbeath as will their opponents...

This could result in the SFL having to put all league matches on hold until this is resolved.

Going to Dunfermline this Saturday (You may need too think again!!) wouldn't surprise me if all league matches are called off until this is resolved.

What a mess!! Well done SFL!!

This is the kind of panic the Livi fans and the new consortium will be pedalling, but...at worst...the only games that would be postponed are those involving Livingston, Airdrie and Cowdenbeath....which is likely to happen regardless of an appeal as some teams looking at home games will now be away and vice versa and may not be suitably prepared.

Livingston could only bring an appeal if they have further information to bring to the argument that has not been already considered, or they believe that the decision breaches an existing rule or the law. An appeal on any other basis would/could/should be rejected.

Livingston certainly do not have the power or cause to put all fixtures in doubt.

[RiG]

Obviously these guys wouldn't have come in to save Livi, if relegation was on the cards as their buisness plan hung on Livi being allowed to remain in SFL 1 (this season).

Which in itself is an absolutely ridiculous decision to allow them to stay in the league. ICT had an SPL budget last season and I'm aure they could have put together an SPL budget for this year if they wanted. But whatever budget you come up with doesn't give you the right to "choose" what division you play in. Livi can't say "We have a Division 1 budget for the club" and be granted a place in SFL1 based on that alone. The guff spouted by some Livi supporters and McDougal and Rankines hilarious attempt at "blackmailing" the SFL to stay in the league was incredible. They backed the SFL into a corner in the last week and it has backfired big time.

I have every sympathy with the players and staff who look likely to lose their jobs. However I have even more sympathy for the people Livi have screwed over only to end up in the mess they are now. But what about creditors who had to make make their staff redundant thanks to Livi pissing away money they didn't have and shafting them by not paying them?

Livi are getting their comeuppance and it's about damn time. They have shafted so many people in a short space of time they can no longer be allowed to get away with it. Whilst the fans might not have been able to do much the SFL cannot tolerate financial mis-management especially from a team who is rapidly developing a history of it.

Edited August 5, 2009 by RiG

[CaleyD]

Thats sad sad news, the livi5 had there plan and money.. if they stayed in the first, and for them to put up a team to the second with less than 2 weeks to find a team for the first is unreal, will they be put staight back down... who know, I however do feel its a really sad desision.. the players, the fans and the others trying to make it work when over all the only person to blame at this point in time is that ershole thats ran away happy with his deal... i hope all SFL teams have learnt there lesson.... sorry livi

Hold your horses just a moment.

This is the 3rd time in 14 years that Livingston FC have been in administration and this is the first time they have been punished in any way shape or form.

They have climbed through the leagues, paid wages for players they could not afford and done creditors out of over ?11 Million in the process.

Whilst I have some sympathy for fans, they were happy enough to see these debts being accumulated and written off by way of CVA's whilst all the time it was bringing them success on the park. It's only now when the success is no longer coming and they face oblivion that they start playing the "don't blame/punish the fans or those trying to save this club...it was the bad Italian man" card.

They have learned no lessons and done little to prevent this happening time and again.

Are you honestly suggesting that they should be allowed to continue to reap the benefits of those actions by staying in the Div 1 and giving them money from a league at a level they have not achieved by honest means?

The only message that allowing them to stay in Div 1 would send out is that it's ok for teams to buy success with money they don't have and continue to benefit from that even after they get found out.

I would imagine that Airdrie and Cowdenbeath would have had to agree to being moved up a league before the decision was made and the early hassle will more than compensate them in the longer term with increased gates/revenue.

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

The fans of Livi have not actually shown any desire of note to prevent repeated mismanagement of their club. Our fans may be quiet at home games but have attempted to influence decision making at the club. There are many genuine Livvy fans but they too must feel cheated by those who have used them in effect for their own ends. The two new 'owners' are far from philanthropists. I see little evidence for Livvy to survive unless they are prepared to bite the bullet and this is what the SFL have provided them with albeit as I earlier posted 'at the speed of Bobby Mann giving Mark Yardley a piggy back.'

Airdrie is a harder tie for Ross County than Livvy so we have something to smile at.

Livvy may have the right of appeal but unless they go to the Court of Session with an injunction they probably have little power to stop all 5 fixtures taking place. They also have little money for an appeal and very little support. Perhaps Massone will gift them ?25k of his ?50k payoff although I suspect he has had to buy out the agreement on his flat in Edinburgh with some of that.

[Georgeios]

Wow CaleyD I know there back story, I feel that the wrong people are being punished for it, the board in the last 14 has changed... every finger to be pointed at have left.. the ones being punished now are the people trying to pick up the pieces, the players and the fans, The should look to punish the people responsible for it getting this way.... Its a fair punishment as they fell out with the rules but there are a couple of SPL sides nearing this situation, and numbers of SFL clubs too... not as bad but how many are covering up there problems? If it turned out that we were in this shape thorugh no fault of ours or the players faults how would you feel? The players have played at least 2 games unpaid....

[kiltarlity]

Livi's new owners have been led up the garden path by the SFL ( as much as Livi are in the wrong! ) two wrongs do not make a right!

Why ask for this huge bond payment? as a guarantee that they can full fill there SFL 1 fixtures.. and then relegate them.

Like it or not Football needs money men to come in and help clubs that are in a financial mess. What message does this give to future investors... in clubs. Where would we be without Sutherlands jiggery pokery losing our debt.

Whats more Livi have players under contract so they are now going to be a third division club paying 1st division wages from third division gate money. No they will cease to exist...

Edited August 5, 2009 by kiltarlity

[Georgeios]

I agree 100% with that..... kind the point i was trying to make but you put it better.. they should have stepped in a long time ago, i think its SFL that should be learing not livi

[CaleyD]

Livingston FC..the club, the name..have benefited from the actions of all those past owners/directors/chairman. It's that overspending that pulled them up through the leagues and kept them in existence for 14 years and the only way to right that wrong is to put them back to the beginning and make them start again.

The only reason Massone has not been punished is because the Livi Consortium paid him off...that was their choice, and the moment they bought those shares, they bought everything that came with them. They went into this eyes wide open, they knew the severity of the debt, they knew that their was the very real chance that they would face sanctions from the SFL.

As for the fans...as I've said elsewhere, and it doesn't just go for Livingston fans...they gave up the right to play the victim the moment they sold/sell out and pass control into the hands of an individual or a small group of individuals. They were/are happy to take all the glory that comes with the money these guys spend and until it all goes wrong they are happy to bury their heads in the sand.

If the fans are not willing to accept the risks, then they should keep control of their clubs....that's the only way they can assure that they are run the way they want them run.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think people like Massone, Flynn, Keane (at Livi) and the many others at clubs all across the country should be allowed to create these situations and walk away...but they have been doing it for years and nothing has been done to prevent it. We, the fans, have not learned from the mistakes and problems over the years, and until we do, and until we take action then it will continue to happen time and again.

There is people at Livingston who have been shouting about this for a while, just as there's those among our own support (me included) who have been trying to get fans to wake up and realise that unless we ask the questions and keep tabs on what happens at our club then we could all face the very same fate. The "it'll never happen to us" and the Board know what they are doing" excuses for taking no interest are the reason why Gretna went to the wall, why Airdrie went to the wall, why Livingston are in the mess they are in, why Hearts are never more than one court action from the end, why there's more insolvent than solvent clubs in this country who are all living on borrowed time and are one bad/wrong decision away from oblivion.

The whole game is in a mess and everyone involved, be it fans, shareholders, directors, owners and football associations has to take responsibility because so long as we keep passing the buck and pointing the finger at each other and everyone else then nothing will change and we'll only see these events become every more frequent.

The SFL have sent a message saying that if you spend beyond your means and benefit from that on the park then you will be punished and they will rectify the situation by sending you back to the start. Livingston should be lucky they never expelled them from the league altogether and it's only this attitude that exist amongst sports business that we all have some kind of duty to keep everyone in existence that has saved them. The only person with ANY duty to keep them in existence is themselves and their customers and the rest of us should not be expected to tolerate cheating just because it might prove a little inconvenient to dish out appropriate punishment.

[CaleyD]

Livi's new owners have been led up the garden path by the SFL ( as much as Livi are in the wrong! ) two wrongs do not make a right!

The meeting last week was called by McGruther in order to tell the SFL that they could or could not fulfil the fixtures for the season. As part of that meeting their was discussion surrounding what might be acceptable to the SFL in terms of a guarantee that they could fulfil fixtures.

The consortium gave assurances that even if they could not obtain the Massone shares they would fund Livingston (whilst in Administration) for the next 12 months.

Their was insufficient LMC/SFL representatives at the meeting to give any assurances on anything, it was suppose to be a meeting where information was exchanged and those representing the SFL could only give their opinion on what may be acceptable to a full LMC committee. Given that 3 or 4 of those present from the SFL have "Livingston" connections, it's not surprising they were making all the right noises in terms of trying to help Livi as much as they could.

Why ask for this huge bond payment? as a guarantee that they can full fill there SFL 1 fixtures.. and then relegate them.

The SFL never asked for the bond, the consortium offered to pay a bond as their guarantee that fixtures would be fulfilled....and asked how much that would be. They were not given a figure at the meeting, this was sent to them (The Livi Consortium) afterwards. It was given as an "if we did accept a bond, this is how much it would need to be" not as a "pay this bond and you can stay in Div 1 with no other penalties"

Like it or not Football needs money men to come in and help clubs that are in a financial mess. What message does this give to future investors... in clubs. Where would we be without Sutherlands jiggery pokery losing our debt.

BS, Football needs to learn to live within it's means and wake up to the fact that the reason these "businessmen" are rich is because when push comes to shove they look after #1 and if that means screwing over and casting aside one of their play things (football clubs) then they'll do it....and fans are stupid and gullible enough to let them waltz in and out doing it time and again.

Some might call what Sutherland did to make our debt disappear "jiggery pokery" but you can be sure...in fact you can be 100% certain that what we were told is not what happened and that he is the person who stands to gain most from that particular slight of hand parlour trick....thankfully not everyone is blind to what really happened.

Whats more Livi have players under contract so they are now going to be a third division club paying 1st division wages from third division gate money. No they will cease to exist...

Livingston couldn't/can't afford to honour player contracts in the 1st Division, so it makes no difference. The moment the club go into full administration and draw up a CVA they will be included and they'll be told they can walk away or take a new reduced deal....so Livingston FC are not "lumbered" with, and not likely to be lumbered with, paying 1st Div wages in the 3rd Div.

[kiltarlity]

Would you believe it, the chairman of the SFL commitee that made the decision to relegate Livi was none other than Airdrie's representitive.

No vested interest there then !! (lets ask Turkeys if Christmas is a good idea!!)

Stinks even more.. !!!

Edited August 6, 2009 by kiltarlity

[CaleyD]

Yes, but the main for keeping Livingston in Div 1 was that it Airdrie and Cowdenbeath would lose out from being promoted because they're not prepared and/or don't have the squads to compete at a higher level and they would be disadvantaged also.

If you accept that, then you also have to accept that the Airdrie representative would have voted in favour of keeping Livi in Div 1 as he wouldn't want to disadvantage his club.

If you don't accept that, then they must be happy to be promoted and that removes the whole "other clubs being messed about" argument and makes the SFL decision the correct one because only Livingston have been punished.

As I said to a Livi fan.....you can't have it all ways!!!

[Georgeios]

CaleyD it is the right thing to have done but I still think its bad news for SFL teams all over.. I have my opinion on it, you have yours, fair enough. I do however hope the same rules are taken in to play when - Hearts / Killie / Mwell and yes Rangers... go to the wall...

[RiG]

Whats more Livi have players under contract so they are now going to be a third division club paying 1st division wages from third division gate money. No they will cease to exist...

They'll be used to that though what with paying SPL wages when they were in the first using other peoples money to do so because they had none of their own.

[Georgeios]

needs must, Anyway, I'll give them 6 mths if at all the livi 5 are talking about walking away now as there plan was based on playing in the SFL1, they said they would walk if they went to any other leauge, dont blame them.

So when livi pass in to the once green yonder, Forres Mechs for SFL football....

[RiG]

needs must, Anyway, I'll give them 6 mths if at all the livi 5 are talking about walking away now as there plan was based on playing in the SFL1, they said they would walk if they went to any other leauge, dont blame them.

So when livi pass in to the once green yonder, Forres Mechs for SFL football....

As I've said above this was a spurious proposition by McDougall and Rankine who were effectively holding the SFL to ransom over their position. I'm delighted that their attempt at blackmail hasn't worked. I doubt ICT could go to the SFL and say "Look, we had an SPL budget in mind for this season - can we get promoted again?" Can't see that happening.

[Georgeios]

Aye but we were relagate fair and square. the Livi5 tryed to pick up the pieces as it stood not after being stuck down, anyhoo we can run round and round on this, end of the day IMO i feel sorry for the fans and the players..

Yes you can argue the fans should have acted, but look where we are and whos fault it is, The fans can voice all they want its the board who are to blame.. or the ex-board.

In work this morning we were speaking about it, as much as i get a slagging from them for the "franchise Pi5h" they actualy said (it was a hibbee) that we are one of the best run clubs out there....

[absent friend]

I think what is also being missed at this time is the lack of financial options open to all clubs this year.

This time last year we had benevolent bankers opening their strong room doors to assist any club that required a bit of help.

This year - hee haa! Now try and run a football club with a ten month season, bulk of income in month one and then, if lucky, just covering costs weekly. Add in players values dropping due to lack of trading because of said lack of cashflow (Setanta money) and imagine trying to present that to a bank, in the form of a business plan at this time, to stay afloat.

We have this oil support company gone to the wall yesterday with a full order book, good historic trading but no bank wants to address the cashflow situation right now. Compare their business plan with that of a football club!!

Not only have Livi little chance of surviving but I would suggest that many teams are looking over their shoulder hoping foreign banks will return to these shores with an easier borrowing mandate.

The 'money men' backing clubs are very often the most reliant on borrowing and if one area of their financial empire crashes, like cards, the rest could follow. Unless there is a end product for injecting money into a club I don't see the same 'Saturday toy' mentality prevailing for a while so I'm afraid it is goodbye Livi.

.

[CaleyD]

CaleyD it is the right thing to have done but I still think its bad news for SFL teams all over.. I have my opinion on it, you have yours, fair enough. I do however hope the same rules are taken in to play when - Hearts / Killie / Mwell and yes Rangers... go to the wall...

It already happened previously with Gretna, so where people get the idea from that this is a new thing and Livingston FC are the first to suffer I don't know.

Livi were relegated from the SPL, they were in administration and the SFL then relegated them to Div 3 before they eventually went totally bust before the season started. The only difference was that it happened in time for them to be replaced.

It's also worth keeping in mind the the SFL and SPL operate on different rulebooks, so any precedent set in one league does not automatically apply in the other.

[CaleyD]

I think what is also being missed at this time is the lack of financial options open to all clubs this year.

This time last year we had benevolent bankers opening their strong room doors to assist any club that required a bit of help.

No they weren't, banks have been clamping down on football clubs for a few years now. It was the bank calling in a fairly small overdraft at St Mirren that triggered their selling up and moving to a new stadium.

This year - hee haa! Now try and run a football club with a ten month season, bulk of income in month one and then, if lucky, just covering costs weekly. Add in players values dropping due to lack of trading because of said lack of cashflow (Setanta money) and imagine trying to present that to a bank, in the form of a business plan at this time, to stay afloat.

It's this kind of attitude that's getting clubs into trouble time and again. They are like any other business and they should have to budget/plan accordingly to income and the pattern of that income. This mentality that it's somehow acceptable for clubs to run up debts...even in the short term...has to stop before any progress can be made in improving things across the board.

Given how the whole Football Industry has been going to the dogs financially for years, it's not before time that banks stopped putting the profits of their shareholders at risk by lending so heavily to football clubs.

We have this oil support company gone to the wall yesterday with a full order book, good historic trading but no bank wants to address the cashflow situation right now. Compare their business plan with that of a football club!!

Not only have Livi little chance of surviving but I would suggest that many teams are looking over their shoulder hoping foreign banks will return to these shores with an easier borrowing mandate.

The 'money men' backing clubs are very often the most reliant on borrowing and if one area of their financial empire crashes, like cards, the rest could follow. Unless there is a end product for injecting money into a club I don't see the same 'Saturday toy' mentality prevailing for a while so I'm afraid it is goodbye Livi.

Again, a very dangerous and damaging mindset....Football Clubs have no right too, and are playing a dangerous game by expecting rich sugar daddies to run and fund them. Seriously, what is the basis of this total arrogance among football fans that makes them think they have a god given right to run as they please and have people throw money at them and then, when it goes wrong, play victim and expect every man and their dog to bend over backwards to be lenient on them or bail them out.

[Georgeios]

Jeeezo CaleyD you seem to have the bit between your teeth, no ones going against what your saying dude.. just how we see it in our minds...

[CaleyD]

It's nothing personal, it's just that there's a lot of misinformation and scaremongering being pedalled regarding the whole situation and given that most clubs in this country (including us) are just one wrong/bad decision away from the same situation, I feel it's important to correct the errors an assumptions being made.

That might come across a little pompous and "I know better than you", but that's not my intention and my posts might seem a little long, but that's because I've tried to back up my points with reasoned argument.

I've come to the conclusion that being a Site Admin must be a bit like being on the SFL League Management Committee. You have all these people out there shouting at you to grow some balls and make the right decision, even though you are of a mind to try and cut people as many breaks as you can. You have all these voices telling you that a certain individual is making a mockery of the league/forum and something needs to be done about it for the larger good. You throw out a compromise and that's not deemed sufficient, so you listen to the people and you take action....only to find that they then all turn on you and tell you that you've got it all wrong and that your actions are heavy handed and done with little thought for everyone else.

In short, the League Management Committee were on a hiding to nothing and would have been wrong no matter what they did.....and that's a situation I can certainly relate too!!!

Re "bit between my teeth"....it says it all in my Avatar

[Georgeios]

True enough, you have to admit all the same its bad crack.. hehe

[Sorted]

This Livi saga has been allowed to drag on for far too long and the SFL must take some responsibility for their failure to act before now. The chaos that their late intervention has caused is significant and although we may laugh at our neighbours, they are now in the ridiculous position of having programmes printed, hospitality sold out (alledgedly!) and not knowing if the have a game on Saturday. If the SFL the SFA follow their own appeal procedures then it could be twenty days before a conclusion is reached (never mind the possibility of proper legal action). This is a joke.

For the record I totally support Livi's long overdue removal.

Although the blame for this farce can be placed at the door of Massone and to some extent Flynn, the West Lothian public need to have a long hard look in their own direction. It's all very well to support the team in good times (although numbers weren't huge they were significant) and send thousand to Hampden for finals, they have disappeared faster than a cream cake in Kerry Katona's kitchen. This to me is the biggest worry in football at the moment and our club is fairly typical. Success is demanded and measured against ridiculous standards. How often have we read posts on our forums talking about "failure", "disaster" or "sacking" when we sat tenth in the top flight of Scottish football? I intend to look back at our time in the SPL very fondly and remember lots of fantastic occasions throughout our stay, it was magnificent and may well never be repeated.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Sorted

[absent friend]

"Not only have Livi little chance of surviving but I would suggest that many teams are looking over their shoulder hoping foreign banks will return to these shores with an easier borrowing mandate."

Ironic indeed - just received an email from the Bank of China confirming their return to the financial market here!

[ictchris]

Confusino reigns over County's game tomorrow. They will play Airdrie and the game wil go ahead but if Livi successfully appeal their relegation the result will be voided.

What a farce.