PullMyFinger

Actually he's right we were only top for two days

Has he got me on ignore?

9th August 2008, we beat Aberdeen 2-0 at Pittodrie which had us top of the league after the first round of fixtures, we then went on to secure 1st division football the next year. We're doomed.

bbc had him scoring 6 too

1 Where were you born? Johnston, should be a buddy 2.Where did you spend your childhood? Inverness, Dalneigh 3 When did you start following football in Inverness? Late 70s/early 80s 4 What is you current location? Forres

Okay, until a yes vote the questions can't be answered definitively as Westminster will not pre-negotiate. I have yet to hear a genuinely positive case for staying in the UK. I believe the people of Scotland would be better served by people who live here solely elected by people who live here in an Independent government. Nothing will change for the better unless we make it change and we have the opportunity to do just that next year.

There are some very good reasons to consider independence, but statements like that one risk making the Yes campaigners look like fantasists! Breaking it down: 1. Vote no and you'll still actually get get democracy 2. Vote yes and you'll still actually get austerity 3. Sheesh! Which conspiracy theory website came up with that one? The sole aim of any government is simply to get re-elected, and taking a course of action which p1sses off the vast majority but favours a few people who would be voting for them anyway isn't going to help one bit. Austerity is a necessary evil to prevent an even worse economic crisis on the scale of, say, Ireland's and Iceland's. Two countries that the SNP no longer seem to hold up as role models, incidentally. Independent countries that didn't have the benefit of a bigger partner to soak up most of the pain for them. While I'm at it, other reasons I hear put forward like "a fairer society", "no illegal wars" and "no Trident" are also offputting drivel, because matters like that would be determined by whoever is in power at the time and you just don't know what decisions they will actually take on anything. And anyway, a lot of people actually want a strong military deterrent in order that we can defend ourselves and the oil fields on which our economy depends. Personally I think the only truly valid reason for independence is that localised decision making results in better decisions for the local area in question. But it's a point that that seems to get lost amongst all the other noise. You haven't answered my questions Yngwie

This is an excellent site if you want a little inspiration for what's possible for us. http://www.nordichorizons.org/

http://nationalcollective.com/2013/07/15/raymond-soltysek-independence-is-the-triumph-of-hope-over-fear/

http://nationalcollective.com/2013/07/17/a-time-for-troublemakers/

I started to respond to that and then realised there is so much bluff and bluster in your statements I didn't know where to start. So, I've broken it down. Vote no and you'll still actually get democracy Vote yes and you'll still actually get austerity CHANCELLOR George Osborne is under increasing pressure from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to ease his austerity programme. http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/imf-tells-osborne-ease-the-austerity.20832556 The IMF suggested George Osborne should consider changing his plans in the light of lacklustre private demand. http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/imf-austerity-call-is-rebuffed.20820349 Sheesh! Which conspiracy theory website came up with that one? Resorting to insults? The sole aim of any government is simply to get re-elected, and taking a course of action which p1sses off the vast majority but favours a few people who would be voting for them anyway isn't going to help one bit. Ah, that's what democracy means is it? Just get re-elected? The current cabinet are selling off everything they can to their buddies and relatives. The corruption is so blatant but the media can't see the elephant in the room. Austerity is a necessary evil No, it's not. What's necessary is to rid ourselves of child poverty, to ensure our most vulnerable citizens have enough money for food and shelter, that they are cared for should they need it. to prevent an even worse economic crisis on the scale of, say, Ireland's and Iceland's. They're in a better state than the UK, what's your point here? Two countries that the SNP no longer seem to hold up as role models, incidentally. What has this got to do with the SNP? They're not the only show in town. Independent countries that didn't have the benefit of a bigger partner to soak up most of the pain for them. Please elaborate how you believe being part of the UK benefitted Scotland? While I'm at it, other reasons I hear put forward like "a fairer society", One where everyone benefits from a booming economy and there's a net to catch them if they fall? "no illegal wars" I don't believe we would have invaded Iraq without a UN resolution, there is talk of that very condition being placed on a future constitution document. and "no Trident" are also offputting drivel, Why do you think we need Trident? http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-prescott-its-time-sink-2096704 because matters like that would be determined by whoever is in power at the time and you just don't know what decisions they will actually take on anything. I believe a Scottish government will only be looking to defend our lands and seas. And anyway, a lot of people actually want a strong military deterrent And a strong military deterrent will be more affordable without the need for nuclear weapons. in order that we can defend ourselves and the oil fields on which our economy depends Again, more affordable without Trident. Personally I think the only truly valid reason for independence is that localised decision making results in better decisions for the local area in question. I agree completely and the process has started already. http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/greater-control-for-islands-if-scotland-votes-yes-in-2014-x.21705519 But it's a point that that seems to get lost amongst all the other noise The-Silent-Crisis-Summary1.pdf

This is exactly what the UK government are relying on. The Yes side can't answer these questions with any conviction. Westminster refuses to pre-negotiate any terms. Until there is a commitment from Westminster to discuss negotiations then we proceed through the biggest campaign that any of us will ever experience without definitive answers. This will only happen after a Yes vote. What we can do though is take a look at how Westminster is managing the economy......and how we can do things different. Here's a library of reports, documents and thoughts already put to the "Common Weal". Worth perusing and there's going to be things you like as well as things you don't. That's the beauty of it, it's our chance to create a new country with our own values instead of neo-liberal elitist values. http://reidfoundation.org/the-library/

This is not on offer as yet, but independence for Scotland is. Northern councils are however looking at close links to an independent Scotland after eyeing us with suspicion for many, many years due to the settlement we receive from Westminster having a legal framework. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2013/jul/26/scottish-independence-northeast-england

That would be interesting but for one inconvenient point, we live in a country which was once independent but was sold out by the ruling classes at a time when only the ruling classes had a vote. The first logical step to localised federalism is independence and then for the regions to get autonomy. Scottish Government is already working with the Islands Councils to come to an arrangement for that very thing. Vote Yes for democracy or no for continued forced austerity, make no mistake this austerity is by design to make the richest even richer. Privatisation of things like the state NHS down south to the cabinet's members, friends & family cuts our share through Barnett consequentials. ATOS creating mountains for an already stretched DSS causing delays for claimants is driving people to desperate measures like foodbanks, payday loan companies and in extreme cases suicide.

This defies belief. Can you back up those assertions with evidence? Yes These are the results of all the general elections since 1945 and show which party got the biggest share of the popular vote in Scotland and in England. 5 July 1945 - Labour (Clement Attlee) Scotland voted Labour (47.9%). Got Labour. England voted Labour (48.6%). Got Labour. 23 February 1950 - Labour (Clement Attlee) Scotland voted Labour (46.2%). Got Labour. England voted for Labour and Conservative exactly (48.8% each). Got Labour. 25 October 1951 - Conservative (Winston Churchill) Scotland voted Conservative (48.6%). Got Conservative. England voted Labour (46.1%). Got Conservative. 26 May 1955 - Conservative (Anthony Eden) Scotland voted Conservative (50.1%). Got Conservative. England voted Conservative (50.3%). Got Conservative. 8 October 1959 - Conservative (Harold MacMillan, and Alex Douglas-Home) Scotland voted Conservative (47.2%). Got Conservative. England voted Conservative (50.0%). Got Conservative. 15 October 1964 - Labour (Harold Wilson) Scotland voted Labour (48.7%). Got Labour. England voted Conservative (44.0%). Got Labour. 31 March 1966 - Labour (Harold Wilson) Scotland voted Labour (49.9%). Got Labour. England voted Labour (47.8%). Got Labour. 18 June 1970 - Conservative (Edward Heath) Scotland voted Labour (44.5%). Got Conservative England voted Conservative (48.3%). Got Conservative. 28 February 1974 - Labour (Harold Wilson) Scotland voted Labour (36.6%). Got Labour. England voted Conservative (40.1%). Got Labour. 10 October 1974 - Labour (Harold Wilson, and James Callaghan) Scotland voted Labour (36.3%). Got Labour. England voted Labour (40.1%). Got Labour. 3 May 1979 - Conservative (Margaret Thatcher) Scotland voted Labour (41.5%). Got Conservative. England voted Conservative (47.2%). Got Conservative. 9 June 1983 - Conservative (Margaret Thatcher) Scotland voted Labour (35.1%). Got Conservative. England voted Conservative (46.0%). Got Conservative. 11 June 1987 - Conservative (Margaret Thatcher, and John Major) Scotland voted Labour (42.4%). Got Conservative. England voted Conservative (46.1%). Got Conservative. 9 April 1992 - Conservative (John Major) Scotland voted Labour (39%). Got Conservative. England voted Conservative (45.5%). Got Conservative. 1 May 1997 - Labour (Tony Blair) Scotland voted Labour (45.6%). Got Labour. England voted Labour (43.5%) Got Labour. 7 June 2001 - Labour (Tony Blair) Scotland voted Labour (43.3%). Got Labour. England voted Labour (41.4%). Got Labour. 5 May 2005 - Labour (Tony Blair, and Gordon Brown) Scotland voted Labour (38.9%). Got Labour. England voted Conservative (35.7%). Got Labour. 6 May 2010 - Conservative/Lib Dem Coalition (David Cameron) Scotland voted Labour (42%). Got Conservative/Lib Dem Coalition, England voted Conservative (39.5%). Got Conservative/Lib Dem Coalition This shows that since 1945 Scotland has only failed to get a UK Government in line with the popular vote in Scotland on 6 occasions out of 18. That is actually not very different to the English position. Apart from the elections of 74 and 64 mentioned earlier England did not get the party of the popular vote there in 2005 or 1951 and the results of 2010 and 1950 did not entirely reflect the popular vote. I think views are clouded by relatively recent history and the Thatcher years, Four of the six occasions when Scotland did not get the Government it voted for were the four consecutive elections of the Thatcher / Major years. There seems to be an urban myth that Scotland votes labour and we are lumbered with a Conservative Government - but when you look at the bigger picture you see that the Thatcher / Major years are the exception rather than the rule. The only other times Scotland has not got the Government it wanted is with the current coalition administration and in 1951 when, believe it or not, Scotland voted Conservative and England voted Labour! As for my last point about devolution I am sure you can't seriously mean that part of my argument defies belief. Even when Scotland does not get the Government of the party of the popular vote, Scotland controls those matters devolved to it. The English do not have that luxury. I stand by what I said. All I am saying is that whatever the other arguments may be for independence, the argument about being disenfranchised in the voting system and being governed according to the English vote is simply not supported by the facts. Scotland gets the Government it votes for just about the same as the English do - that's a fact. Not disputing devolved powers but decisions taken in Westminster do affect the funds available to us through Barnett consequentials. The fact that England as part of the UK may get a government that it didn't vote for shouldn't stop the people of Scotland voting Yes to always get the government we vote for, that's absurd!

I just thought I'd like to add that of the 300+ years of union, only since the 1918 Representation of the People Act did all men over 21 and women over 30 have the right to a vote and only from the 1928 Representation of the People Act was the right extended to women over 21. The age was dropped to 18 in the 1969 Representation of the People Act. Now tell us again about how the people of Scotland have influenced the Union.

Looking at this in 1964 and 1974 there would have been "hung parliaments" without Scottish Labour MPs and in 2010 there would have been a Conservative majority. However if we also take out the Welsh and N.Irish results into account in those years the conservatives would have had a majority. I say this is not acceptable for the poor English and demand they are given their independence. Incidentally, in general elections in Scotland Labour have had a clear majority since 1959 and we've had Conservative government for 25 of those years versus 19 years of Labour. If that's something you're trying to defend then good luck! You need it. http://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/ http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp2003/rp03-059.pdf (Results from page 9)

This defies belief. Can you back up those assertions with evidence?

For those who believe BBC and MSM are not being impartial there's a petition to direct Scottish Government to approach OSCE (part of ODIHR) to request an election monitoring mission. Only 5 more signatures required. http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/the-scottish-government-approach-the-osce-and-request-an-election-monitoring-mission

You already live in a pretty free country. Struggling to see what more freedom there will be. Is a Scotland in closer ties with the EU than the UK is willing and with the Bank of England as the keeper of it's monetary union really independant? If England changes the interest rates, Scotland will have to jump but with less consideration paid to it's needs. And with such a large competitor next door, will Scotland become a much less desirable place to do business? It's not about blind bravehearts but about fiscal sense. It's not so simple, so I'm undecided. For me, it's mostly about a more representative government. That's why I'm much more in favour of devo-max and even more increased federalism. Power at the most local level. Below that of London or Holyrood. So, neither option especially appeals. The case isn't simple for me, so I'm still undecided. Yep, totally agree with most of that especially the freedom bit. Re Scotlands EU membership being closer to the EU than the UK is at the moment, where do you get that from? Do you realise that our fisheries were sold down the river by the UK govt. to maintain "our" rebate? The UK negotiates on our behalf but we haven't seen any benefits for an awful long time. The rebate the UK gets goes to Westminster and does not make it's way here in Barnett consequentials. Westminster managed to find £billions for the Olympics though. What did Scotland get? One football match. A monetary union is in the UKs best interests and initially is what the current Scottish Government propose to do. They are not going to raise interest rates any time soon and I can say that with an unbeleivable amount of confidence. How? Look how much the national debt is and what effect interest rates would have on repayments. They aren't going to bankrupt themselves to spite us. Even if rates increased, savers here would benefit. Devo is not on the ballot paper even though it was the most popular option according to countless opinion polls. This was a condition imposed by Westminster in order to approve the referendum deal. Now ask yourself why they didn't want it; they want to govern us not serve us!

Please explain why you think my post was gutteral. Indeed. To be honest I'm finding this whole independence saga rather depressing actually. For such a monumental vote, the run up to this referendum should be the most interesting, the most informative and the most exciting political event of our lifetime. And what has it become? Nothing more than a dull, scaremongering, chest-beating cringefest. I am still undecided on how I'll vote, and can still be swayed either way and it should be the job now of these two groups to persuade the undecided folk either way. If this is the best they can do, then I'll probably not be voting at all. Sorry to correct you here but as a voter is it not also your responsibility to look into the options? That is what I do and unlike some people, can see arguments from both sides. Are these two groups about convincing people to vote their way, or are they just about preaching to the converted? If they're so poor at convincing people like myself I'll probably remain undecided until election day. The Better Together arguments tend to be along the lines of scaremonguering, whereas YesScotland offer a positive alternative. Claims made by YesScotland can sometimes only be confirmed post referendum, such as EU membership but it is increasingly looking like there will be a UK referendum on that and support for withdrawing is on the up south of the border. Moving Trident is being discussed too with MoD stating it will cost £billions whereas a report they commisioned stated the cost of decommisioning would likely be less than £150 million. I can see why undecided voters are in a dilemma, there will be a perion immediately before the election when the media have a responsibility to be impartial and this is when most undecided voters will decide.

Indeed. To be honest I'm finding this whole independence saga rather depressing actually. For such a monumental vote, the run up to this referendum should be the most interesting, the most informative and the most exciting political event of our lifetime. And what has it become? Nothing more than a dull, scaremongering, chest-beating cringefest. I am still undecided on how I'll vote, and can still be swayed either way and it should be the job now of these two groups to persuade the undecided folk either way. If this is the best they can do, then I'll probably not be voting at all. Sorry to correct you here but as a voter is it not also your responsibility to look into the options? This isn't a run of the mill election, it's a referendum which could mean years more austerity as the Forbes list get so filthy rich that they're writhing in their own excrement or the good guys win. Not that I'm biased or anything. Haven't heard much from Lawrence about the post office lately.

All very valid and interesting viewpoints. Let's take this out of the box though and start from scratch. What do you want our newly independent country to be like? What if anything would you like to keep? What should we introduce? How should we finance our institutions and welfare? There is a very interesting conversation going on right now and it's only started, everyone is invited to contribute and it's the brainchild of those people at the Jimmy Reid Foundation. Remember him as the man who led industrial action on the shipyards like had never been seen before - a work in, in an effort to stave off redundancies and yard closure the workers carried on working without reward. It was futile in the end but showed what lengths the workforce were prepared to go, to preserve their futures. The Common Weal invites everyone to have their say, no matter what walk of life you come from. This is our chance to create a democratically elected, socially just, independent country in Scotland. This is a pdf file, only 5 pages but provides food for thought. http://reidfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/The-Common-Weal.pdf Scottish Common Weal website http://scottishcommonweal.org/ Scottish Common Weal library http://scottishcommonweal.org/the-library/ Hours of fun