CaleyD

For years going to the football has been my main priority on the weekends but I chose to go do something else yesterday and despite ending up cold, wet, dirty and sore it was more fun than all matches I've attended this season put together....so we're in no disagreement whatsoever about how bad the season has been. It would be totally naive of the club (or anyone) to ignore the fact that people are turning their back on the game (and it's not just ICT). Whether they agree with people's reasoning or not...whether you and I or anyone else can agree on the reasons why it's bad and what needs to be done to fix it...none of that matters a jot. What matters is that moves be made to prevent the same mistakes being made again, and what's even more important is that the club better manage the expectations...both internally and with the fans. Had we started off this season with people being told we were going through a transition, that things would be tough and survival was the aim then I doubt we'd have so many hacked off fans as we do right now. Instead we spent the whole season hearing nothing but talk about getting top 6 and nothing being done on the park to back it up. Endless broken promises will piss people off far more than inadequate performances will....and that's what happened this season. In regards all the other stuff I've said above....I stand by it. It's everything that has come before that has placed us in the position we are in. What's gone on this season is, IMO, just poor management of an inevitable situation. Having managed it differently would not have improved our position in the league, but we would all have been better placed to deal with it.

I'm not apportioning blame for this season on Brewster...just highlighting that he was twice involved in extra cash being spent which served us no good whatsoever. First the signing of Barrowman for way over the odds and on ludicrous wages, the second being money given to him to strengthen the squad, which didn't do anything to turn around our fortunes, and then the late decision to get rid and the subsequent relegation have all contributed to what was effectively "wasting money" and damaging the clubs finances. Ultimate responsibility for those decisions lies with the Board at the time and there's no doubt that, in combination with several other things, they have culminated in the current situation where we have little money and need to rely on loan signings and getting players for free/on the cheap. No idea where anyone would get the impression that Butcher has had money thrown at him. The only additional spending we've seen has been the result of taking players in on loan/short deals to cover injury, and even in some of those cases it has cost us nothing because Butcher has the contacts to make these things possible.

The club (on many fronts) is going through a transitional period. Our reliance on the old guard was always going to have to change at some point, and whilst I can accept there's an argument that Butcher hastened that a bit by releasing certain players, it was going to come last year or this year regardless of who was the manager. In truth, we should have been preparing/positioning replacements for these guys long ago, so the sudden transition cannot be placed entirely at Butchers feet. A fair bit of financial damage was done when the club decided to throw money at a failing Brewster. We signed players to bolster the squad to save a season that was already bust. God only knows what Barrowman cost us in terms of the bottom line and whilst the Niculae deal made a profit on paper it could have been so much more and the damage done to the clubs reputation is, IMO, still hurting us now. One thing ICT have been very good at over the years is alienating guys who could have (financially) been very good for the club. Could you imagine what it would be like if all these people had decided to set personal differences/egos (whatever you want to call it) aside and worked together for the good of the club? Sutherland, Fraser, MCGillvray, Savage, Catto...those are some pretty big hitters. Instead we've had to rely on selling off all the family silver year after year, just to get the books to balance. We are where we are now and hindsight is wonderful thing when seeking to criticise. Was it avoidable, could it have been any different? Open for debate, but it's an argument nobody can win. I do know that we don't have the resources...financially, or otherwise...to support a squad which matches the expectations of some fans. We'd be lucky if we could afford to put a squad together without a good spattering of loan deals....some of which cost us nothing. So, my argument is that the damage has not been done in the last season, the last 2 seasons over even the last 3 seasons. Our position has been worsening pretty much from day 1. Progress on the park was not the result of some genius master plan, it was a series of short term measures and fixes which have finally caught up with us and there's a price to be paid. Is Butcher the man for the job? Unless we know of anyone else with the contacts to bring players in so cheaply or loaned in for free and who can keep us safe and/or deliver more....then yeah, he is. Would he be the man for the job if things were different, if we had a bit of cash in the bank to spend on signing players on 2 or 3 year deals? Who knows!!! That would be pure speculation....and since things aren't different and aren't going to change any time soon then it seems a little pointless dreaming of what ifs. I don't like the situation any more than the next fan...but a new manager (regardless of who it was) is not going to magic up a larger budget, better players, fewer injuries or any of those other things which all seem to have become Butchers fault in some eyes. He may not be getting everything right, but who does!!! I don't believe Butcher is the only person that could be doing the job, but I do wonder how anyone, with the resources available and the luck we've (not) had could be doing much better. In fact, we could be far worse off than we are now and I wonder if some people should be more concious of the saying "Careful what you wish for!!!".

Hope not.

9 Goals (all from open play) despite being played out of position for large parts of the season and not having a suitable partner up front for the rest. Only thing that surprises me is that there's not other teams chasing his signature.

Just glad nobody has uncovered the Libyan connection!!!!

Not uncommon for companies house to list inaccurate "nature of business" details. All I can add is that in order to register a company using the word "Trust" in the title, then there are some very strict rules in place in regards to the nature of the business that can be conducted.

Thanks for all the input. Seems clear that the majority of those who voted/posted disagree (morally if nothing else) with the idea of a newco being granted automatic submission to the SPL, which was really the main purpose of the poll. Lots of interesting opinion on where the level of financial impact would fall under either scenario, but almost universal agreement that there's going to be challenges for everyone (financial and otherwise) as a result of Rangers failings. Another thing that's certain is that it's far from over and we'll have a few twists and turns yet!!!

A subject that's been done to death over the years (largely by myself) but I believe all the question on stadium ownership etc have been answered and there comes a point when going over old ground does nobody any good and you need to draw a line under previous events and look forward. That's not to say we need forget or ignore them, just view them as lessons for the future....be that good or bad, what to do or what not to do. Yeah, the Trust has been dormant pretty much the entire time it has existed and it was never used as we were previously led to believe it would be, but it looks like there's a desire to breath some life into it now and it's maybe better to judge it, and those involved (especially the new faces), on where it goes from here.

Dynamic pricing is totally different and is geared towards getting sales in sooner and does not (as a matter of course) offer "discounts for all" as is being promoted by Livingston. I would say that Dynamic Pricing in the football situation is actually very risky. Those who would benefit from the cheaper prices are generally those who won't be able to stump up the money needed at short notice...so they will miss out and end up paying more, or worse, not being able to afford/justify the cost so a fan is lost. Will be interesting to see how it pans out for Hearts, but I think it could turn out to be an own goal.

They'll just combine fans and team bus.

What Doofers Dad said. As hard as I find it myself at times, some questions/situations just don't need the obvious pointed out because it's not about being right or wrong, it's about football!!! For what it's worth, I didn't think for one second you were trying to undermine the efforts of anyone and I already knew you were really a Staggy

Setting aside his questionable work rate...he seems to have been a victim if circumstance (in much the same way as Sanchez was, IMO) in that he was never really given the opportunity he maybe should have been, or would have benefited from in order to earn a new deal. That's not a go at anyone, just the way the cards fall sometimes.

He's been having problems on the farm - Clicky

If only they had taken both stands/enclosures from Kingsmills instead of just the one...charcoal is great for improving drainage!!!

Anyone who purchases shares in the football club is doing no more than making a donation. As for the bricks, this was no more than a novel means of posting a list of donors - or are you suggesting that if the people who stumped up to get their names on these integral parts of the main stand actually own them, they would therefore be perfectly entitled to take their "property" away with them at any time? Well done Charles, the next time ICT (or a related organisation) gets told to do one when trying to raise funds then I'll think of the admirable job you did here in totally devaluing what was being offered and the effort being made. You sure you're not a Staggy?

Just to clarify (for those not already aware) the Trust talked about in the article is NOT the Supporters Trust.

Regionalisation would only ever take place at the lower levels....where it's actually of benefit to clubs who can't afford to be forking out 10's of thousands on travel every season.

You effectively pay a deposit which amounts to the minimum cost. The number of Season Tickets sold is taken as at 1st July. If they reach the lowest discount level then nobody pays any more, if they fall short of that then everyone pays the balance between the deposit and whatever level they reach...so yeah, everyone pays the cheapest price. Those who don't pay the balance are issued with a ticket that covers the first 9 home (league) games. For a team like Livi who will have lost a few fans after all the mess they went through and who are growing that again as they progress and climb back then it's a fairly safe bet and a good way to get those bums back on seats. The problem is that you actually need to be confident of fairly sizeable increases in sales to make it work, so it's not such a clear cut no-brainer for clubs with more established support. e.g. If you have 3000 Season Ticket holders then to give them a £1 discount without losing revenue then you need to sell an additional £3000 worth of tickets...let's say 10 tickets at £300 for simple maths sake. So to discount a tenner then you need 100 extra ST sales. But you also have to factor in additional costs that come with more ST holders, so maybe you actually need to increase sales by 120 to offer £10 discount....and that's just to reach financial par with previous season. The obvious aim of increasing bums on seats is to increase revenue, so maybe you have to start looking at 150 extra sales so it's worthwhile venture to give a £10 discount. That's only about 50p a game saving. You are going to want to be able to offer £50+ discounts to get people interested...so you need 750 additional ticket sales to make it worthwhile for both club and fans....that's 25% increase (based on 3000 base level), fairly ambitious as we already know that discounts generally don't support themselves with the increased numbers. So yeah, in principle a sound idea...in practice, not so straight forward and far from a certainty that it would be a success.

Every ICT season ticket holder/match goer/shareholder effectively contributed in the region of £60 to £65 to the cost of the developments we needed for promotion, so asking for £20 a head is not unreasonable in comparison.

Sounds very much like what came out from the recent fans surveys done by Supporters Direct which proposes two leagues of 16 (Premier League & Div 1) with a qualifying league of 10 and then regional setup below that. Copies of the plan are attached and make for worthwhile reading as they go in to detail on the reasons why such a setup would benefit the game, together with information and proposals on how finances should be distributed etc. I believe there's a fair bit of support within the Scottish Executive for the plan and short term funding could be available to ease the transition. What is becoming blatantly obvious in all the discussions that have been going on is that everyone agrees that change is needed and some teams are going to have to give up something in the short term to allow that change....but nobody is willing to do that (despite all the lip service they give it). What the SFA seem to be saying is "If you can't make a decision, then we'll make it for you" and as they can technically pull the rug from under both the SPL & SFL by deeming them not fit for purpose then you have to hope that, if need be, they have the cahoonas to follow through and aren't just blowing hot air. The_Fans_Plan_Executive_Summary_Final_AG__ASH_19.03.2012.pdf The_Fans_Plan_Proposals.pdf The_Fans_Plan_The_Detail.pdf The_Fans_Plan_The_Problem.pdf

I believe Livi average home crowds (excluding away fans) were between 1500 & 1600 this season.

What really disturbs me about Lennon is the aggressive nature of his protestations. Plenty of managers get worked up and animated (including ours), but with Lennon you always get the feeling he's on the verge of physically abusing whoever it is directed at. If anyone else acted like that in any other walk of life then they would quickly find themselves up on charges of breach of the peace and intimidation.

Knowing the SPL, there's probably some rule or other that prevents it.

He should be banned from the touchline sine die.