Charles Bannerman

That would be a bit difficult given that the ICT 1 Celtic 0 result was on 23RD MARCH 2003.

I think much of the problem is that Britain has ceased to be an industrial power so we have to employ people instead in Sports Administration and Health and Safety. :) Seriously, though, I do have a suspicion that the legal profession and the media have a lot to answer for. However if I were to allow this response to take a political turn I might also suggest that since the mid 90s, and especially since they came to power in 97, the (New) Labour Party, having ditched Socialism for the cause of electability, needed a substitute bandwagon and espoused Political Correctness. But to return to lawyers and the media. In an increasingly litigious society where firms of solicitors specialise in compensation claims there is an increased risk that someone will sue and the Law will be assinine enough to uphold the claim. As a result those who call the shots are less willing to put their necks on the line. As for the media, certain sectors of it (and I would single out Fascist rags like the Daily Mail) are obsessed with attributing blame, even when blame is not really all that relevant a factor. For instance on Saturday the Mail's weather coverage plumbed the depths of blaming the forecasters. Again, those who call the shots have become unwilling to put themselves in the firing line. Also, as the generations which suffered the Depression and two World Wars die out, we are left with a society which has known nothing but the Welfare State (which has become the Nanny State) and has never had it so good. (I suspect Harold MacMillan was just a few years early coining that phrase.) Life has become incredibly soft and always manages to offer an instant fix which also maybe means that people have become terribly precious about themselves as well as rather incapable of making their own realistic decisions.

Or, as the Howden Enders sang at the Jaggies at Inverness Derbies during the merger..."What's it like to, what's it like to, what's it like to play in blue..."

OK... I've just come back to this thread after several days and I see that it has had further activity. Initially, please note that in my original post I deliberately placed the term "Trust" in inverted commas to acknowledge the fact that there are varying viewpoints on the nature of this arrangement. However I would have to emphasise that, in almost a decade now since the "arrangement" was made, I have never really been aware of its precise nature being an issue among ICT fans. For instance it's not exactly the kind of thing that groups of scandalised people sit around discussing over their post match dram in the Social Club week in week out, nor is it the talk of the terraces Saturday after Saturday. Yes, a certain view of the arrangement does exist, but apart from one or two people on here it really seems to be a viewpoint which, despite having being stated very forcefully by those who subscribe to it and having had a decade to gain currency, has spectacularly failed to do so. I think the take of most fans (and this is my take as well) would tend to be:- * In 1999-2000 Caley Thistle's financial situation had become dire in the extreme. That threat to the future of ICT was removed by a transaction involving the Stadium. * In 2004-05 the extreme need to return from playing SPL football in Aberdeen to a 6000+ seat capacity stadium in Inverness was met and financed in a very short timescale. And it would appear that, in the view of the vast majority, these vital ends are what matter while very few people seem to feel "disadvantaged" or "cheated" or "done" or whatever by the means of achieving them.

Given that vodka is in effect a 37.5% solution of ethanol in water, I could guess about minus 20 centigrade, so unless you are in the darkest inland Highlands you should be OK. :021:

On the other hand, compared with British School of Motoring cars (as opposed to learners in general) Tesco and Morrisons lorries are extremely fast! I have to say that Tesco used to be slower than Morrisons though.

Going on what I've just heard on Radio Scotland Travel, Inverness is in effect almost cut off. As at 4pm the A9 was reported as shut at Daviot and shut southbound at Blair Atholl. It is also blocked at two points in Caithness and the A96 is closed between Keith and Huntly. The railway, as we have seen above, is closed and the bus service to Aviemore from where you could take the train is presumably also out of action because of the road closure at Daviot. I believe the airport is currently open. Does Morrisons' stuff also come up by rail? I try to buy as little as possible from Tesco for a number of reasons (although I do welcome their decision to remove the dreaded Tesco Lorries from the A9) and do most of my shopping at Morrisons.

I would be the first to agree that this was certainly a significant element in many situations and I indeed took it as a "given" that the good fortune I referred to was to a very large measure accompanied by what Yngwie speaks about. I don't think ICT could have got to the SPL and survived there for five years without decent measures of both benefits - ie the right people being there at the right time allied with a number of rather fortunate breaks I'll go through each of my points in the context of Yngwie's suggestion. *I really don't think anyone would really want to attribute the eventual emergence of the merger out of the chaos of Rose Street, Deryck Beaumont's office, the Sherriff Court and the District Council chamber to "brave decisions and initiatives from the boardroom" although a couple of resolutions put to the Third Battle of Rose Street were as shrewd as they were merger saving! *Certainly the Board in 1999 played a significant part in getting David Sutherland involved and it was very fortunate that he, his influence with the Bank of Scotland and Tullochs' money were all around just when desperately needed... especially with regard to the manner in which the BoS became involved in spiriting away the debt. Again I don't want to become involved in a debate over the nature of this arrangement and whether or not the means justified the end, since without this it very probably would have been - the end. *ICT coming back from the dead to win the First Division had little to do with the Board but a great deal to do with John Robertson, Donald Park and a great bunch of players. But to be realistic, with two games left, no one would really have given ICT a snowball's. * It cannot be denied that ICT were simply fortunate to be in the right place at the right time when the SPL changed their arrangements amid the chaos of Partick Thistle's legal rearguard. However I would be the first to acknowledge the contribution of chairman Ken Mackie during that fraught summer of 2004. Ken's diplomacy and determination amount to one of the most telling contributions made by any ICT chairman at any point in the last 16 years. This was by no means the only example of the club being lucky to have the right chairman in place at the right time, although he was in no position to influence the internal machinations of the SPL. * The combination of my last two answers becomes my answer to the next point about ICT being rather lucky to get into the SPL in 2004. * Again there was the good luck to have the right man in de facto charge and calling the shots at the right time when you need to build stands very quickly - ie a builder who is also prepared partly to finance the project. (I do realise, by the way, that since relegation certain fans have undergone some kind of revisionist conversion as far as David Sutherland is concerned.) * I would have to suggest that SPL survival for five years was a combination of good football management and good management from the Boardroom at a time when the lower reaches of the SPL were unable to sweep away a club with all the disadvantages referred to in the original post. *My original post here principally referred to the final 3 or 4 games where a 4 point cushion became relegation on GD when victory, or in the last case even a draw, in any one of three games would have meant safety. There has to be an element of bad luck there in addition to any other causes you might like to attribute it to. So I think Yngwie has actually inspired an excellent question for this year's "Higher ICT" Paper - "Assess the relative contributions of good luck and of good on field and boardroom management to the progress of football in Inverness from the Highland League to five seasons in the SPL". Oops... forgot! They don't set Higher questions like that these days!

At the risk of reviving one of the catch phrases of the old days on Caley Thistle Online ("I agree with Mantis" :( ) I have to say that in the case of what I have quoted above, I actually do. :( Consider the following:- * ICT is extremely lucky to be in existence at all. On several occasions between 1993 and 1996 it very nearly didn't happen or "unhappened". * ICT was very lucky not to go under in the 1999-2000 period. It was only the "Trust" deal which prevented financial oblivion. NB - that is a fact and not an invitation to reopen any debate on the nature of the "Trust". * ICT came back from the dead to win the First Division in 2004. * ICT was very lucky indeed that its winning of the First Division title happened to coincide with the very marginal decision made by the SPL to allow groundsharing and to relax its 10,000 seats requirement. The window of opportunity to get into the SPL in the summer of 2004 was very narrow indeed - rather reminiscent of the narrowness of a similar window through which the club managed to squeeze itself to come into existence in the first place after both sides of the merger had painted themselves into corners in 1994. * ICT therefore was very lucky to get into the SPL at all. Remember that in 1997 Dougie McGilvray laid a bet with Tam Cowan that they would do this by 2004 and the response was almost universal derision. * ICT was very lucky to avoid another potentially fatal financial crisis by baling out of Aberdeen at the end of 2004 and getting back to two very rapidly constructed and resourced stands in Inverness. * ICT was widely expected to be relegated instantly but, miraculously, held on in 2004-05 and in the end survived fairly comfortably. In similar terms ICT survived another four seasons in the SPL despite all the disadvantages of geography and low attendances and turnover. * ICT was then rather UNLUCKY to go down last season after battling back from 4 points adrift to a 4 point safety margin and then spurning three opportunities to grasp safety. In as marginal a situation as ICT has been in right from day minus one, it only required one bit of bad luck to send the club back to the SFL. It would therefore either be a very bad mistake, or the result of the inexperience of youth which has known little else, to assume that SPL status is the natural order of things for Invernes Caledonian Thistle.

I have a distinct recollection of being in B and Q's car park, waiting for a FT (sorry... Full Time score, not Football Times!) before going into the shop when that late equaliser went in at Broomfield. Then, to my infinite and ongoing regret, I was not at the replay and on this occasion - unlike February 8th 2000 when it simply was not practicable - it was a conscious decision. I basically decided that I really was due a night in with my then young family, plus the fact that the BBC had staff covering the match so I was surplus to requirements....and the freezing weather probably put the tin lid on it. That is one occasion which I really, really regret missing. I can just imagine the atmosphere in the Howden End during the shootout! I also note from DJS's excellent account on the Caley Nostasgia Page that the 20th anniversary of that night comes up three weeks today. Oh, and also that the crowd was "only" 3000. I might actually have expected more even though it was so cold - given that almost exactly 2 years later 6000 plus (allegedly although I have heard claims of more!) packed out Telford Street for the St. Johnstone game. And indeed I really wonder if, IN PRACTICE, that 1992 attendance has not actually been beaten by a cup tie in Inverness since that day, notwithstanding the size of the crowds for the Aberdeen game in 2000 and the Celtic game in 2003?

I suppose the next question the weather may pose could be over this coming Saturday's Scottish Cup tie against Motherwell. Realistically, even if there isn't a significant thaw, it would really require another hugely badly timed big dump of snow to bomb this one out. But, looking out at the winter wasteland brought back a number of memories of Baltic weather and Cup ties in years gone by. For instance - Early 1979 - Inverness Thistle v Falkirk. The late 70s produced two consecutive extremely hard winters (to the extent that there was speculation that we were entering another Ice Age!) and this tie at Kingsmills was postponed a record 29 times before it eventually went ahead weeks late (and Jags unforunately went out.) January 1990 - I seem to recollect that the legendary replay where Caley put out Airdrie on penalties at Telford Street sailed pretty close to the wind in terms of the weather and went ahead on a really bitter night. Amazing, isn't it, that the 20th anniversary of that famous occasion comes up in a few days time. February 1992 - in similar terms Caley v St. Johnstone looked very unlikely to go ahead but the frost relented and a famous 2 all draw took place in front of a packed house on a pitch the consistency of treacle. January 1996 - ICT v Livingston at Telford Street. This came at the end of an incredibly cold spell with temperatures below minus 20! No one thought there was any chance at all of this game going ahead but the frost suddenly gave way and the pitch thawed out in the nick of time but was again pretty viscous. ICT took a 2-0 lead but were pulled back to 2 all before Alan Hercher SPRINTED (sic) :D through to grab the winner. Subsequent defeats of East Fife (in a replay at Methil) and Stenhousimuir (1-0 away - wonderful Brian Thomson goal) paved the way to a quarter final against Rangers. It's a while since we've had a really cold spell and in fact the current one is probably the worst since that extremely severe 95-96 episode, but this weather certainly brings back a few frozen Cup memories. Let's see what this weekend brings.

Oh My God! Interesting isn't it that the people who seem to whinge most volubly about this decision to popstpone are not the ones who would actually have to contend with the consequences of any problem which might arise as a result of it being given the go ahead. On the other hand, bitching from the sidelines is SO atypical of CTOL.... isn't it??????

Very generous of you to say so but, to be honest, when I posted that I hadn't by that stage touched a drop! (That came later and is now wearing off!) But hang on... anyone who can use "grammaticise" accurately at 2:53 on New Year's morning needs major respect! :music03:

If they have snow ploughs in front of them... the more the merrier! :( Seriously... the thought of Ross County fans helping to clear the snow at TCS, as realistically requested by Darren in his press release, really caught the imagination of the BBC "dahn sarfh" who couldn't help but see the contrast between this and the unthinkable prospect of one half of the Old Firm helping out the other. It sort of injected an element of civilisation into Local Rivalry. On the strength of this, ICT's snow clearing activities found their way on to BBC Scotland Radio and TV and also Radio 5Live.

Can they no just do it for the good of their club. After all thats what supporting is supposed to be all about. Yes, but i think you'll find that every club that usually gets fans to help, they will give out free tickets. And then they probably have to deal with compulsive whingers like Mr 23... such as folk with season tickets complaining that they couldn't benefit from the free tickets. As far as I am concerned, this thread boils down to:- * Darren's original request for help. * Tabitha's follow up to that. * And Alex's very timely and well worded reminder that the thread was conceived as a plea for help and not a discussion on the merits of volunteering. As for MOST of the rest... well nothing surprises me on here these days..... HAPPY NEW YEAR!

I have just had a call from Jim Falconer. The game is in danger because there are insufficient volunteers to clear the pitch. Currently they have 10. They need a lot more than that or the game is OFF.

As I recollect the undersoil heating costs something like ?70 an hour to run (maybe more at current oil prices) so if it were to be on for, say, three days that would be about ?5000. That's the equivalent of about 500 (averaged across concessions and adults) on the gate. I would imagine that, compared with the gate for a midweek match later on, there would be that much to be gained from the away end alone should the game be able to go ahead on Saturday. Then there's hospitality, programmes etc etc. A postponement is quite an expensive matter generally so there's every chance that the cost of using the heating would be more than recouped. My doubt is about how effective the heating would be given that there has been frost in the ground since last Saturday. When would they switch it on and if they did, would it be capable of melting ice starting at, say minus 3-5 as opposed to preventing solidification in the first place? I just wonder if the biggest enemy here might be water's rather large specific heat! The nightmare scenario would be if the heating were used and the game were still off which would amount to a large double hit.

John was due to have been summarising at Hamliton v Dundee United which in the end was postponed. The two scheduled First Division games were those involving the top two - Dundee v Morton and QoS v Raith which was also postponed.

And you wonder why Glasgow has got such an appalling health record?

WHY NOT? Because Open All Mics covers all SPL games and usually about a couple of the First Division matches involving the highest placed teams so this week it's the Dundee and QoS games. Another consequence of relegation I'm afraid. Robbo's at the Hearts game. Listeners will get score updates from Inverness within Open All Mics though.

I went down to the stadium this morning just at the time Tabitha was posting to say that the game was on and it was an entirely different world down there compared with the rest of Inverness which I drove through to get there. Visibility right along the sea front was really quite good (at least half a mile) and there was actually a shaft of sunlight shining down on the Black Isle. I have to say that, with the Black Isle being Ross County territory and all that, the said shaft of sunlight and where it was landing did somewhat seem to symbolise the current respective fortunes of the two Highland clubs! By the way there is no Open All Mics from Inverness today I'm afraid.

Given an abundance of counter attractions (of which televised football is just one) plus the large number of fans in the local area of the Old Firm and other large clubs, I have a suspicion that to get the kind of numbers you are talking about ON A REGULAR BASIS to watch First Division (or even SPL) football in Inverness the prices would have to be SO low that the activity would become even more loss making than it is now. The unfortunate fact about a great deal of full time professional football is that there is a fundamental imbalance between the wages paid and the fact that the men who receive them can only work profitably for an hour and a half a fortnight. (OK... no jokes about ICT's recent second halves!) The demand is not sufficient to sustain what is effectively economic lunacy. This is absolutely fundamental. However it is perfectly understandable that the fans feel that paying approaching ?20 to watch this level of play for an hour and a half is a lot of money and would like to see that reduced. But I'm not convinced that price reduction would produce the necessary proportional increase in gates at this level of football. It is an unfortunate fact that, even at current prices, these are actually quite heavily subsidised by other activities. In economic terms, I don't think football at this level has the right elasticity of demand for a drop in ticket prices to be compensated for by the necessary increase in attendances.

I haven't seen the incident but I'm sure a carbon copy of it in an ICT strip in years gone by would indeed have brought forth a loud cheer from the Inverness support. And indeed Kingsmills makes the point well that Barry is currently playing for QoS because, a year ago, ICT chose not to extend his contract. It is also worth making the point that when Barry went to Livingston this was, at the time, an opportunity to play in the SPL and in Europe which was not available in Inverness. As far as I recollect, Barry is not currently a member of the ICT Hall of Fame because he was ineligible at the inaugural election since he was still at the club.

Since the matchday thread hasn't come up by the time I need to leave for the Clach Park, I'm just starting this fresh one to say that there is an Open All Mics with Des McKeown from Palmerston this afternoon. (Perhaps some kind Mod could transfer this to the match day thread when it is started.)

You should in fact kill three birds since this is also scheduled to be Ross Tokely's 500th game for Caley Thistle. (I now imagine that some grumpy old mann will complain that this thread has been dragged off topic :P ;) )