Oddquine

So he had been discussing his future with Butcher before the end of the season...as the first reports of the interview were before the Hibs game and I assume before he received any formal offer? Has there been anything since? Has he refused the offer? According to the HN on 17th May - http://www.highland-news.co.uk/Sport/Football/Inverness-Caley-Thistle/Tokely-deal-in-balance-7903792.htm ROSS Tokely has thrown his Caley Thistle future into doubt by revealing that the club's conditions within a new one-year deal are "very disappointing". The Inverness CT legend, who has played nearly 600 games for the club, spoke exclusively to the HN about the offer on the table but admitted he could walk away. He said: "I am happy that I earned a new deal for my 17th season, but I am very disappointed with the offer - it is not what I am looking for or expected. "I have got to look after myself and make the right decision for my family. I will be in more discussions with the gaffer, but I am unsure whether we can come to an agreement." The player added that, despite his comments, he has respect for the club and is keen to find a way forward. So, if he had categorically been told before season end that he is not in the plans to be considered for a starting place but will be utilised as a stand by squad player.... why have we not heard he has left? And what is he still negotiating? (or was at that time)

I can see the point made in your first paragraph and the first sentence of your second, though I don't necessarily agree with it...as you interpret differently from me....but you have explained your thinking, for which I thank you, and will like your previous post, because I do agree with the rest of it. I don't completely disagree with the rest of your post......but every player in a team is a stand-by player really aren't they? If a player cost a million, cost £20,000 weekly in wages, but is playing badly enough to affect the results and has a bad attitude, would he still be an automatic shoo-in for a start? Seems to me that if Tokely trains and earns his right to a regular starting place, even if he has to prove it from the bench initially, would any manager refuse to play him? Seems to me that, if that was what Butcher said, then it was a stupid thing for any team manager to say...and Butcher hasn't struck me as being that stupid. If Butcher was, given the financial straitjacket, going to give contracts to players who are not even going to be considered for a starting place, then he is wasting the club's scarce resources. We can sign players who won't be considered for a starting place but would fill a hole in an emergency a lot more cheaply by taking in the best from the youth system, or even signing back some of our previous rejects playing for Highland League Teams. Afraid I read At my age, I'm not wanting to be on the bench, or a squad player." as wanting a guarantee of a first team start....and don't interpret it as him having been told he is not even being considered for a first team start...but if you have a link to anything he has said which gives credence to your interpretation, please link to it. Age should not be a barrier until it affects your speed/skill/output/ performance, but, equally, long and meritorious service should not demand a loyalty premium not allowed to other players with less service, and who may be as good if not better. Everybody in a squad is considered for a starting place.....only eleven at any time will ever get it.

Well you have slightly misquoted me there. I have actually raised doubts for the last three seasons in regard to Rosscoe's ability to stay the pace in the SPL, especially as a full back - and I also admit that I was just as unsure about his ability to play as a central defender, as I suspect many others did. But I have also stressed on more ocassions about his saviour performances in certain individual matches and his total committment to the club. If he had gone two seasons ago I dont feel that there would have been such an uproar. But he has simply epitomised the fighting spirit required, has extended his legend status and has even endeared himself more to the fans. At a time that we are going through major change Tokely is the type of character / influence that you need at this club. I admit, as I have alluded to in another thread, that I continue to have my doubts about his stayability but he deserves to be given the chance to stake his claim anyway. And if he has played his last game then he has actually been treated in a more deplorable manner than Munro. Until I read your last sentence, my pointer was hovering over the "like this post" button. I'd like to see Tokely staying, but I can see why he wouldn't if the terms don't suit, and he thinks he has more to offer and thinks some other club may want him....though I'd be sorry to see him go. I hope for his sake, he is right about another club wanting him. I do think a measure of continuity in a team is important, and continuity isn't, imo, just keeping the nucleus of a team signed last year together, but holding on to at least one someone who knows what "playing for the jersey" means and has the ability to impart that to the incomers. (Though I still don't really understand why anybody getting paid to do a job should have to be told that the job needs to be done to the best of their ability....isn't that what being paid is all about?) If you can explain what you mean by And if he has played his last game then he has actually been treated in a more deplorable manner than Munro. I may yet go back and like your post....for the first.....and possibly the last time ever.

If either of the players had killed somebody by their actions....would ICT still have signed them after they got out, do you think? You have to shake your head at the justification for the signing presented by the chairman of Swindon Town....he has the chance to give something back, to show the tragedies of drink-driving. How is he giving something back OR is showing the tragedies of drink driving by playing first team football? He is just showing that there are no tragedies for the perpetrator just tragedies for the victims. Perpetrators can come out of jail and continue where they left off......victims don't have that luxury.

Rehabilitation doesn't have to mean playing football in the public eye earning first team wages, though. He can earn a living in football by taking coaching certificates during his rehabilitation and doing youth coaching or something less upfront, though probably less profitable. Anyway, football may be the only job he knows....but it is not the only job he can do, is it? What would he have done if he had crashed and only injured himself badly enough to not be able to play football, but not badly enough to throw him on the mercy of the welfare state for the rest of his life, as he did to the father of the children he killed? He's not yet 30........he has time to try many different careers yet. People who have done nothing wrong and have been in the same jobs for 30, 40 and even more years are being obliged to change horses in midstream....what makes it that he is incapable of doing that? In his place, I'd be keeping low profile, in the certain knowledge that, for as long as I am playing and in the face of the family affected, they are going to get no closure....and no amount of money would be worth that to someone with a vestige of a conscience. Edited to add..but would someone with a vestige of a conscience, still sitting in prison, have a football agent chasing around trying to get him a place back in football?

Point at any post where I gave an opinion about Tade at all, pretty please....so the bit I didn't understand was the Huissean/Oddquine reference...or do you think Oddquine is, given your spelling problems, an alternative way to spell the nick of whoever did express doubts re Tade, along with Huisdean. BTW, I expressed doubts about your level of omniscience.

Don't quite understand this. Care to explain what you mean?

Last Tuesday's Courier says that Butcher is preparing for for a series of pre-season friendlies in Scotland for after June 29th. It also says that it is unlikely any games will be played at Tulloch Caledonian Stadium due to planned work to the pitch and another trip to England has been ruled out. ( so sorry folks who were hoping for a road trip) The Friday Courier gives the Clach game dates. I'm not seeing anything in the Northern Scot re anything arranged for ICT in Moray/Nairn with Elgin or Highland League teams yet....or in the Caithness papers with Wick..but I suppose it is on the early side....I have my fingers crossed for games in those areas.

Of course it does - nothing to do with him feeling that he has been constantly played out of position, often made a scapegoat, dropped and started again on a regular basis and not played to his strengths. And you know this how? Because he/she is omniscient?

According to bauhaus, Chubbs has been released, and no, I don't understand it either. If bauhaus has info right, and he may very well have, of the nine who were signed to the under 19s from the u-17s in the first year back in the SPL, it looks like only Laing, Whyte and Polworth are still here for next season..I suppose playing in the under-20s. I saw Chubbs a couple of times at least at Wick, and thought he was a cracking wee player (but bear in mind I know sod all about all the modern methods of playing the game). I take along Dundee supporters to ICT/Wick Academy games (and pay them in as recompense for getting me there and back home) so when I ask "what the hell are they doing reacting like that?" and "aren't they meant to be closing that player down..so why aren't they?" they can explain modern tactics/thinking etc (not that I really understand it yet, and probably never will). I do sometimes wonder (being of an era when if you were good enough you were also big enough, as well as old enough) if the likes of Jinky Johnstone or Willie Henderson would ever get a game in this modern set-up which seems predicated as much on height and body strength as on the ability to actually play the game superbly. Just read the remarks on here about the lack of height of Mackay causing problems......and as someone of 5ft 1inch, the man seems to me a veritable giant.Young Ryan Christie looks a very good prospect for the future...but as he is kinda height challenged atm, in Scottish football terms, if he doesn't bulk up and acquire some height in the next few years, will he be kept on however good he is technically? It appears that currently, the average height of Scotsmen is an inch shorter than that of Englishmen.....and I do wonder if the English average is the one taken as the UK norm. As an aside, and just because the research amused me a lot......it appears that Scotsmen are second only to the French re the length of their todgers..(just a shame that Scotsmen also tend to suffer from brewers droop a lot.)

I agree...even though I think that they are as boring most of the time as an ICT game where a large chunk of the team are there physically but not mentally. So you are agreeing with me that women are not equal to men except in areas where physical abilities are irrelevant? I gave up the concept of women's lib when we achieved equality under the law.....it seemed pointless after that. Everything else, like female boxing. football etc is just women trying to emulate men (or trying to place them in an inferior position vis a vis women's "rights" to be protected from themselves), and I rather always liked the idea that we are nothing like men...but are different to (and much better than) them.

Well, bully for you...but we have only your word for your 100% certainty. All the rest of we ignorant and outside the loop individuals have only the media reports on which to base our responses. I have been informed, and I am 100% certain that it is correct that Messi has expressed an interest in joining ICT at the sweetie level of income we can provide! Sheesh! But given that we have absolutely no idea what 100% of the income Tokely was receiving was, even if you do.....how do we know that 50% of his previous wage is not still silly money, given the ludicrous levels of football wages even for the most average of players? Not saying it is, btw...but why would we take your word for it?

He only wants an offer equal to what he is getting now which is considerably less than some others! As to who said he is being offered less money - well I think that is glaringly obvious. You appear to have information not available to those of us who simply read the media reports and come to conclusions based on them. Care to share?

Read in a local paper a few days ago that he has said "At my age, I'm not wanting to be on the bench, or a squad player." and "If I'm not going to be a regular, it won't be for me next year." Given his age, that seems to be a bit dictatorial. Is any player 100% guaranteed not being on the bench or a squad player? I always thought that was what football was all about....a team game, where the egos of players are subsumed to the good of the team. Seems to me if he is prepared to fight for his place as he said he was, why would he need guarantees of a regular game. Wouldn't his own performances give him the opportunity to play if he makes sure he can't justifiably be ignored? If it's about money, or if he has been told he is going to be kept not to play at all but to mentor the younger players as the only ICT real old-stager left , then that's one thing, so if he can get more money elsewhere then good luck to him......and I can see why he wouldn't want to be last choice in an absolute emergency for a game....but if it is just because he will be a squad player and not an automatic first team shoo-in then you kinda have to query his attitude. Nobody is entitled to a place in the starting line-up.or even on the bench. If he was wanting to go elsewhere I,m sure he would be gone by now. Let me ask you a question, Assuming you are good at your job and have been employed by your boss for over 15 years and come your salary review he asked you to take less money, what would you say? I'd do what I thought would benefit me......and if that meant taking less money rather than being jobless with nothing else on the horizon, I'd take it. I have bills to pay, after all. Been in the jobless with bills to pay situation and much better to be able to eat and pay bills....or at least be in a position to come to some accommodation with creditors. That's not to say I'd grab it with both hands on first offer....but I'd most likely grab it if nothing else was turning up and it was still on the table. I'd much rather be employed than unemployed. A drop in wages might make for some problems...but not nearly as many as no income bar the dole will produce with commitments to meet.

Devil's advocating here, but.... Why do we have women's football at all, bar the incessant screaming of the equality and we can do all that men can do brigade insisting we are entitled to be upsides with them in everything....and some entrepeneur thinking they can make money out of yet another pointless sporting activity? In the mid 1960's there was a woman's football team locally to me.....I think the sister played in it for a while, though where they found their opponents i can't remember...but sure as hell it wasn't from the even the local male mostly half-cut pub teams........but it was more a fun, keeping fit thing, not remotely a professional money-making activity thing and it was, frankly, so monumentally boring as to be unwatchable if you didn't personally know anybody playing (and even then, there was a lot more cringe factor than enthusiasm... honestly!) And I have to say that the elevating it to a professional money-making activity as it is today hasn't made it any more exciting (imo)..unless you are intrigued by the jiggling busts and longish toned female legs. Equality to me means competing with men on equal terms....not making concessions to us for the fact that we are not equal and expecting and accepting a lower standard so we can compete on unequal terms.....on much the same lines as positive discrimination does.

Read in a local paper a few days ago that he has said "At my age, I'm not wanting to be on the bench, or a squad player." and "If I'm not going to be a regular, it won't be for me next year." Given his age, that seems to be a bit dictatorial. Is any player 100% guaranteed not being on the bench or a squad player? I always thought that was what football was all about....a team game, where the egos of players are subsumed to the good of the team. Seems to me if he is prepared to fight for his place as he said he was, why would he need guarantees of a regular game. Wouldn't his own performances give him the opportunity to play if he makes sure he can't justifiably be ignored? If it's about money, or if he has been told he is going to be kept not to play at all but to mentor the younger players as the only ICT real old-stager left , then that's one thing, so if he can get more money elsewhere then good luck to him......and I can see why he wouldn't want to be last choice in an absolute emergency for a game....but if it is just because he will be a squad player and not an automatic first team shoo-in then you kinda have to query his attitude. Nobody is entitled to a place in the starting line-up.or even on the bench.

You are joking, aren't you? Where did you hear that? I've been out of the loop for the last ten days with no internet access. I'd have thought they were all shoo-ins for the under 20s. If the under 19s next year are those with birthdays on or after 1.1.1994, then Liam Polworth will be 19 is towards the end of next year and Kyle Whyte 19 earlier next year, so I think both could do another year in the under 19s. No idea what their situation is atm, though.

Psychological or psychiatric crap only works if the people reading it believe in it....much as the continual citing of religion to justify just about anything which blatantly contradicts the tenets of any religion only works if the people reading it are already convinced of the rightness of their opinion as truth and of the complete and utter ignorance of anyone who doesn't accept that opinion as the truth the person propounding it knows it is. In your opinion, it is a really really bad sign when the club start defending themselves on a feckin fan forum with wording of that nature...and you are entitled to that opinion... but not entitled to continually repeat it, three times so far in 18 posts, using varous words, when others disagree with you. Repeating an opinion over and over doesn't make it a fact....or do you subscribe to the Goebbels theory that if if you repeat something frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it? Have to say I didn't notice any more personal abuse in CaleyD's post(s) than I have noticed in your responses to many on here, including myself..but then others can both dish it out and take it...which you don't appear able to do.

Wasn't aware Niculae hadn't trained or played any competitive football in the time since he was injured, before his trial for ICT....and wasn't aware he got injured in his trial period. I stand corrected........you obviously have a much better memory than I do. (No need to shout, btw!)

The difference would be that he didn't complete the trial period before getting injured, wouldn't it? No idea re the answer to your second question....but should the correct question not have been "Who else have we taken on trial/loan with a history of injuries, who has been injured before the end of the trial period and still been signed?" .......though I couldn't give you an answer to that one either.

Jesus wept. Read my post again and re-think your reply. I did read it......and responded to but on the basis of that first half alone, I'd have offered him a deal. I recall saying I'd sign him there and then to all who were around me who attended that game at Grant Street. What's to rethink?

If that is the case, I am horrified. I thought it was because he hadn't been able to get match time since his knee injury last November and the loan was to get him back up to speed before next season. Care to drop a hint as to the source of your assertion?

Don't know about anything else you've quoted but that is not accurate. During that trial, he played the first half against Clach. He produced the single greatest wing display I've ever seen in a Caley shirt (I'm including Robson, Wilson and Hayes in my comparison here). Easy with hindsight, now knowing he's playing for Dundee Utd completely injury free but on the basis of that first half alone, I'd have offered him a deal. I recall saying I'd sign him there and then to all who were around me who attended that game at Grant Street. Where did I say he didn't play in a game..though I did think he had played the whole Clach Game...mea culpa......so he had a trial period which lasted one half of a game and a warm-up. Butcher said it would be unfair to judge a player on one half of football. We will see how they do in our next two games. He didn't manage any other games, and was not prepared to go for a pay as you play deal, which would have allowed us to see if he was going to be able to sustain his fitness....even though that would have probably earned him a proper contract if he had. Maybe he realised himself that he still wasn't 100% fit and needed the time until January to get himself ready to return to the game. If you think We are an absolute joke in a game you didn't attend, what would you have been saying if we had taken Mackay-Steven on and he was paid until January without ever being fit enough to play a competitive game? ICT don't have the money to deliberately employ passengers just in case they come good....it is bad enough having so many with fairly long term injuries earned in competitive matches without taking a chance on someone coming in after a long lay-off having done no training at all. Maybe we made a mistake not offering the training facilities Dundee United offered him when he was at Airdrie......but not inclined to think he'd have been too enthusiastic at the travelling required. Dundee United had the benefit of knowing that, by the stage they gave him a contract he was fit enough to train and play a full game....which was not something ICT could possibly have known without the benefit of the hindsight so many of you are now employing.

Not knowing much about football, but understanding a little of finances to the extent that I know that spending money on something which I thought was a good idea at the time, because theoretically it was a sensible buy because the company which produced it was a well-known company, is money wasted if the buy turns out to be faulty and rarely, if ever gets used. Wasn't Gary Mackay-Steven released by Liverpool as a much as a result of an injury plagued season as anything else? Wasn't the reason he was back home for seven months in 2010 without a team because he was still suffering the effects of the hip stress fracture? Didn't he get an Achilles injury in the warm-up for the Forres Game pre-season 2010/2011 when he was on trial? Didn't he say himself that I got an injury and never really recovered from it. when on trial? Wasn't he offered a pay as you play deal, in order to allow him to prove his fitness? Was he not more keen to sign for a part-time Division 2 team on a contract than chance that he would be able to play to get paid for ICT? Hindsight gives 20/20 vision....and, with hindsight, Mackay-Stevens was a chance missed...but how could he have fared between pre-season 2010/2011 season and the January transfer period if we did not have hindsight to tell us? Fit to play? maybe.....earning a wage while not fit to play? Possibly. Given the way some posters on here react to everything, if he had been signed when injured......and then played as little as those who have been signed uninjured and sustained injuries later have.......guess who would be getting given the pelters for wasting the money which could have paid the salary of somebody fit? Tudur-Jones didn't have a much better injury record...but at least he manged to last the trial period and a game or two as a player to show his credentials. One single trial game, however good, is not a basis for a short term contract, far less anything more.

Good.a lesson learned, then! Nope......just a lot of boredom living somewhere where it's so quiet, the only time you know its not Sunday is when the Archers Omnibus doesn't come on the radio.. Have to say, there was a lot more irritation (I don't really do anger unless I am three sheets to the wind..and I try not to post smashed, because then I can't spell. ) after your "brief therapeutic intervention" than before. On the rare occasions I do angry, I just abuse the dog verbally. He now thinks his first name starts with an F and ends in off. I do realise what forums are about...but I kinda thought this forum would be a break from the polarised opinions to the level of complete irrationality on political forums, and the pink and fluffy stuff on Silver Surfer forums. Pink and fluffy this place doesn't do...but pretty polarised it can, though not to the complete irrationality level.......and, as I have only two subjects on which I have a view which is totally and unashamedly one-sided......and football isn't one of them.so on the rare times I post, .I do try to insert an element of even-handedness in posts I perceive as polarised (or verging on it). Tbh....... I kinda like heated debates...just not pointless ones...and I think this is one of those. I drink OVD and coke for preference (but can do voddie and fresh orange if I must)..take a note in case I ever get down the road when ICT are at home, I don't have to be somewhere else early doors and can invade the local meeting pub (if I can find it). I always buy my own round as well! I think Dougal is a glass 1/8th full of nothing he likes kind of person, while I am more of a glass 1/8th full of stuff I like but 7/8th empty otherwise type....so I think a Dougal/Oddquine ganging up at any time is not on the cards. (Does Dougal know he is called after my dog?) Have to say I'm quite gratified that I scare the crap out of anybody....because in my real life even my dog is bigger than me, which is why I do verbal abuse rather than physical in controlling him....and my kids and grandkids do a lot of when I open my mouth!