DoofersDad

Thanks Davie. I'm not suggesting CJT go to the club and complain, I am merely suggesting that the level of concern on this issues is such that the club should be aware of it. Any successful business should want to know when it's customers are not happy. We may be fans, but we are also the club's customers. Of course, it would be silly to imagine you would go to the Board in response to every little thing individuals may raise on CTO and you have to use your judgement as to when it is appropriate to raise a matter. That judgement will no doubt be influenced by your greater knowledge of what is going on at the club. I am in no way questioning the manager's position, indeed, from what I have seen of Hughes I really like the man and very much hope he succeeds. But without repeating the arguments raised in this thread, I would suggest that there are precious few fans who do not have some level of concern about what they have seen or heard. This thread is remarkable for it's lack of people posting that they think Yogi is doing a great job. There are clearly some who want him gone but I think the majority view can be summed up as "Hmm. Not great so far but fingers crossed it all works out". You may, of course, disagree with my assessment of the mood of the fans and I fully accept that you are in a better position than me to assess it. All I am saying is that if my assessment of the mood of the fans is correct, then it is something I would expect CJT to ensure the Board is aware of. I read CaleyD's upbeat post with interest and sincerely hope he is correct. There are things I like about Hughes as well, but equally there are things which concern me which I don't think can be ignored. I'll give one example - the apparent desire to pass the ball out of defence at all cost. We have lost goals through doing this and yet it has been suggested that it will continue and all that needs to happen is that the players need to get used to the idea and get better at doing it. Let's be clear, there is nothing wrong with hoofing it when a defender is under pressure - Liverpool scored a great goal at the weekend which started with a defensive hoof up the park leading to a swift passing attack, and they are top of the EPL. What is needed is a bit of balance between philosophy and the reality of the situation and of the abilities of players. The evidence from too many games recently is that Yogi may insist on a style that gets the balance wrong. CaleyD's post suggests that Yogi may have the flexibility to learn from mistakes and to get the balance right. If he does, then we could be in for exciting times, but if not ....

What this thread shows without any doubt whatsoever is that, rightly or wrongly, a lot of fans have some significant concerns about some of what they have seen on the pitch and heard off it. Only a small proportion of the fan base contribute to the forum but the numbers coming through the turnstiles shows that these views are widely held and are impacting on the club. Clearly folk at CJT are well aware of this and it doesn't need anyone to specifically request someone from CJT to discuss it with the club for CJT to raise the fact that there is a concern. One would expect that when it is clear that a significant number of folk on this forum have a particular viewpoint / concern, CJT would raise it with the club regardless of whether it is a view personally held by them. Hopefully that is the way things work now so forgive me if I am eroneously picking up an impression that issues will generally only be discussed with the club if their is a personal request or if the issue has been posted on the "ask the club" forum. I would also echo what IHE said about the forum being a place where fans can post views about anything without being subject to personal abuse in response. The fact that a poster has not also personally raised it with the club does not make those views any less legitimate. As long as contributions are within the rules of the forum they should all be welcomed.

You posted an article and took the opportunity to have a little dig at those who have, as you put it, "certain views". My response was simply to point out that those who disagree with those views have also not commented on the article. I have in no way, shape or form defended anyone holding a particular view point. You have then come back and commented on my innocent reply as "just another example of the lack of logic in the manufactured and error strewn "facts" perpetuating from certain people." That's a pretty strongly worded and wholly unjustified attack to which I responded briefly and light heartedly. You have now responded in a way that fair takes the breath away with it's vitriol and rant about things which seem to be completely unrelated to the post you are responding to. "Lazy, spuriously dismissive", not giving "any real thought", talk of things being "branded a lie". Where on earth do you dig up all that from in response to my innocent little observation? And what is all this about the "opposition"? I wasn't aware there were two sides - if there are, can you please tell me what they are and which side you think I'm on. I thought we all wanted what is best for ICT but simply have a wide spectrum of views on how that might be achieved.

Now that is an interesting little snippet. Thanks for posting that.

Some won't have seen it, but it really is pretty standard player toeing the party line sort of stuff. It has, of course, also been ignored by folk opposed to those with "certain views"! "Togetherness" has broken out again and it appears everyone sees the article for what it is and sees no point on commenting on it. If (as some have claimed) the players have no respect for, or fear of repercussions from, Yogi....why would they feel the need to be toeing any party line? Just another example of the lack of logic in the manufactured and error strewn "facts" perpetuating from certain people. Nowhere in my brief post have I made any suggestion or implication that players or Garry Warren specifically "have no respect for, or fear of repercussions from Yogi". I'm therefore assuming your second paragraph is a comment on your first.

Whilst mathematically possible we all know top 3 isn't going to happen. Even if we win all 5 games, we need Motherwell to get a maximum of only 7 points from their 5 games. In addition, our current form is currently the poorest of the top 6. Whatever we do, a top 3 finish is entirely in the hands of others. Much as I would love a little european adventure (even if it did hit the club's finances) I think it is time to cut our losses for this season and start thinking about next with Europe in mind. As I say, I would love a European adventure and in my view, next season gives us the best chance we will ever have. There will be no Rangers and no Hearts to compete with, Hibs are rebuilding and are unlikely to be a threat next season but will return stronger in time. On the other hand, we have our best squad ever and a settled one at that. We may never have a better opportunity for a top 3 finish other than these last 2 seasons when, for various reasons, we have let it slip. If we are going to have success next season it will be vital to get off to a flier and not spend the first round of matches experimenting with systems. By the start of next season we need to have found the right balance between the abilities of the players we have and the manager's philosophy for the way he wants the game to be played. Rather than focus on trying to attain the unattainable this season I think we would be better to use the opportunity of highly competeive matches against good quality opposition to devlop the playing style for next season.

Some won't have seen it, but it really is pretty standard player toeing the party line sort of stuff. It has, of course, also been ignored by folk opposed to those with "certain views"! "Togetherness" has broken out again and it appears everyone sees the article for what it is and sees no point on commenting on it.

If shinnie had been sent off then we all know we play better with nine men. 4-0.

What a boring thing CTO would be if comments were restricted to those "qualified" to make comments! This is a fans' forum and not a managers' professional help line. The views of all, no matter how ill-informed they may appear to others, should be welcomed. In any case, just because you are not "qualified" (whatever that means) doesn't mean you are wrong. Let's keep the diversity of comments going however barking mad they may sometimes be. As long as we respect the right of people to have views different to ourselves and don't respond in an offensive manner, then this forum will continue to be both worthwhile and entertaining.

Great to hear the OGC is going to raise this formally. Don't know where Davie gets the idea that there is vitriol directed against Don. Others can make their own judgement by reading who has said what above. The only thing I would add is to pick up on Davie's point about ICT having signed up to the "see me" initiative. That is commendable, but surely it makes it all the more disappointing that nobody associated with the club apparently did anything to try to repeat a repetition of the chants following the previous County game. There really is little point in signing up to a policy advocating social responsibility if the club then does nothing when a small number of it's own supporters behave in exactly the manner which the initiative is trying to stamp out.

Personally I would have thought Shinnie was worth a good deal more than that. But why would either go to Hibs when next season the team they are in could really be a force to be reckoned with. Success here will considerably raise their stock for coming years. Sure they might get a bigger wage for a short while but I can't see it being in their long term interest. Owain Tudur-who?

Picture of TB on the BBC website tonight. I hope his red wine is ageing better than him since he moved onwards and downwards.

Yup.

I wouldn't consider most of what is on this thread negative at all. A few have certainly had it in for Yogi from the start and will jump on anything to justify their pre-conceived views but I think that most share Macduffer's view that they really want Hughes to succeed. I don't know why there are so many people who interpret criticism as negative. Criticism is made to draw attention to things you think are not right and much that has been on here is not just criticism, it is constructive criticism in that it is giving positive suggestions for improvement. Of course nobody likes to be criticised, but the best managers and the best performers actually welcome it. Indeed, processes of objective criticism of individuals are key management development tools. It is only by being honerst about the moments that are, as you put it it, "less than sterling" that you can properly identify and analyse weaknesses and address them to improve performance. Personally I think Hughes has the potential to be a very good manager indeed, but the Motherwell match was the most alarming 90 minutes of football I have ever witnessed and I make no apologies for saying so. What is negative is to refrain from criticism when things are not as they should be. That's a sure way to mediocrity. Let's applaud the team when they do well but equally let's criticise when criticism is due. Of course, some of the criticism offered will be good and some will be complete rubbish but most will be made with the best interest of the club at heart. If the manager and the players at this level can't use criticism to analyse their own performance then they really have no business being here. Just to illustrate the point. If you want someone to go from A to B and see them setting out on what you believe to be the road to C. What do you do? Do you, like me, say "Woah! where are you going? That's the road to C" or do you say nothing trusting that the person knows what they're doing. If you take my line they may say "thanks but there's a short cut to B this way" or they may just say "So it is, thanks for letting me know" Either way, the "criticism" is welcomed and they get to B in the end. Of course they may just ignore you and insist it is the right road and then end up with egg on their face when they get to C but at least you are no worse off than if you had said nothing at all. If you say nothing at all there may be a short cut but equally the person may end up at C and be pretty annoyed you saw them going on the wrong road but said nothing.

Why do you have to qualify your statement about folk being right to be upset by the chants? It comes across as though your only reason for condemning the chants is because it shows the club up in a bad light. I think everybody else who has expressed distate at the chants has done so out a feeling of compassion for a fellow human being. The fact that it paints the support in a bad light is very much a secondary consideration. And why use the derogatory word "bitching" for folk who are demonstrating a bit of human decency? It is also getting rather tiresome that you continue to badge everyone expressing concerns on this issue as hypocrites because they (in your view) are doing nothing about it. Well actually they are doing something about it - they are letting others who are in a better position to act on the matter know their concerns so that they can help to prevent it in the future. It seems perverse that you blame us and call us hypocrites yet seem to have no words of criticism for the inaction of the club in doing anything preventative following the previous match in Dingwall or for those present at the match who were paid to ensure people's behaviour was in bounds. And whilst I'm at it, I would also comment on your earlier statement criticisng folk who offer critical comment but who don't get actively involved in helping the club. There are a lot of folk who for a variety of reasons are unable to do so. Many folk just find a little time to read and contribute to this forum as a welcome distraction from other aspects of their often very stressful lives. They may work long hours in a stressful job, they may have permanent carer responsibilities, they may live too far away to be able to help, they may be disabled or ill, or they may give generously of their spare time for some other cause. You have no idea what their personal circumstances are. To criticise these folk for not actively getting their hands dirty for the club is, to be frank, offensive. In any case, it is surely preferable to take the time and voice a concern on this forum than say nothing at all. Remember that these folk are actually helping the club by giving those at the club their views. These views should be helpful to you personally in your role with the club as it provides hard evidence about what supporters are thinking. We all know you do a lot for the club and I applaud you and am grateful to you for that, but if you want others to help in a voluntary capacity with the club you might find more success in getting recruits if you didn't convey the impression that you think those of us voicing concerns in the best interests of the club are all lazy hypocrites.

Football is the beautiful game. If modern synthetic / hybrid pitches allow skillful players to demonstrate those skills to greater effect, then I'm all for them.

Yeah but surely you could understand when Nick Ross, Danny Williams and Marley Watkins were all on the bench last Tuesday vs Motherwell and the former 2 weren't even used. ...and the full backs had clearly been instructed not to venture into the wide open spaces in front of them.

I think a hypocrite in this situation would be someone who was singing the chant and then came on here to condemn it. I don't think it is fair to call someone a hypocrite who decides not to take their attention away from the game and squeeze themselves between all the other fans in the their row,then to find a steward / police officer to make their complaint to before going back to their seat (and missing an Aaron Doran wonder strike in the process). We spend enough energy telling the referee how to do his job without telling the stewards and police as well.

It is disappointing that this is being discussed again as the same ignorant chant was made at the game in Dingwall earlier in the year and was condemend on this forum then. It is disappointing because one might have hoped that those responsible would have reflected on it after the last match and realised that whilst they might have thought it funny / clever first time round, it really was well over the line. Secondly, it is disappopinting that nobody in the club appears to have taken any action after the last match. This could either have been to have a word with a few of the folk in the singing section to get them to acknowledge that the chant was not appropriate and to pass on the word to others that it is not on, and/or the club could have had a word to the stewards / police to ask them to intervene in the event that this chant was sung. Thirdly, it is disappointing that the police or stewards did not intervene on their own initiative. Surely they aren't so dumb that they don't know that the chant was offensive. Whilst the fans pay good money to watch a game of football, the stewards and the police are being paid to do a job of work and I don't think it is unreasonable to expect them to do their job. Yes it would be good if more folk had the guts to get out of their seats and have a word with those doing the singing but please let's not condemn those that don't. I personally have seen some guy (quite a big guy at that) being subject to a tirade of aggressive abuse from 3 or 4 young adults in their 20s or 30s when he tried to intervene on some other offensive chant. It is little wonder that others stay in the seats and expect the stewards and police to do what they are being paid to do. I should, of course, add, that it would also be nice to see these people do their job amongst the home support at Ibrox and Celtic Park.

Wasn't able to get to the match but I am hugely encouraged by the reports and the little one sees on the highlights. The previous week was one of rather alarming developments with both what we saw on the pitch and heard off it. I don't think I have ever been as exasparated about the way a team has been instructed to play as I was against Motherwell midweek. It does sound as though Yogi has listened to criticism and hopefully he will be comitted to using width as an essential part of an exciting passing style of play. Clearly Doran was hugely influential yet again. IMHO Doran is the player around which the play revolves when the team play well. The more I see of Watkins the more impressed I am with him and have long been an advocate of Shinnie as a central midfielder. Comments about Billy being burnt out seem to have been found to be misplaced, with a bit of width and drive the chances were coming and Billy looked pretty sharp for his goal. With Draper back and Tansey replacing Vincent further forward I think we have a line up capable of playing a style of play which is perhaps, as CaleyD says, a compromise bewtween the Butcher style and the vision Hughes has. This balance seems the right style for the very talented squad we have available for next season and all the ingredients are there for a really exciting end product. It will be interesting to see whether Hughes sticks to this for the rest of the season or tries to add in other elements of his longer term vision too soon.

- and I've never been happier, darling.

While I wholeheartedly agree with majority of what you have said Davie but where I have highlighted is what I have to disagree with. At our recent home games especially I feel that that team are getting into great spaces but then they play it through the middle leaving great spaces in the edge of the oppositions box (I highlight this on the Motherwell match thread with screenshots to back this up) Now, during the Butcher reign a lot of the time, we would see Shinnie and Raven for that matter overlap the wingers, exploiting the flanks and getting a good cross in for Billy Mckay, Richie Foran and Ross Draper to get a head to. By playing the narrow style of play, we are simply trying to walk the ball into the net and ocassionly have belter of goals like Christie's and Polworth's for example. The tactics that are being employed at the moment will take time to master because it's the complete opposite to how they lads have played the last season and a half. I am not saying the tactic will fail far from it but I think there should be a happy medium of both narrow and wide play especially at home. With all due respect Davie, I don't agree when you say we don't have the striker needed to convert them. Billy Mckay converted them during the Bucher reign, what's changed that he can't convert them now? Agree. Worth looking at the highlights of the last County game where getting wide behind the defence caused county all sorts of problems. That was not passing through the middle type football, that was counter attacking with pace both down the wings and through the middle when width had created the space. It was a joy to behold with bith Shiinie and Raven involved in the goals and Doran pulling all the strings. That is not the way the team were instructed to play against Motherwell.

If Hughes wants to play like a Spanish side he should go to Spain. He needs to understand that it is the quality of the final ball that is important - not the number of passes leading up to it. It is interesting that he mentions Barcelona and to reflect that for the last 2 seasons Barcelona have made visits to Celtic Park. In 2012 they lost 2-1 and last autumn they won just 1-0. The continental style is to sit back and defend the space. This gives players a bit more time on the ball. The reason why Barcelona have struggled against Celtic is that Celtic pressed them hard in the Scottish way and disrupted their passing. If Barca and their highly skilled players struggle against Celtic what on earth makes Hughes think that our good honest laddies can compete with Celtic playing in the Barca style? Can't fault the guy for ambition but perhaps someone should tell him that we've already beaten Celtic a few times - and with squads not quite as good as we know have. It was done by playing to our strengths.

The players made mistakes even when we playing at our best earlier in the season. If they didn't make mistakes they wouldn't be playing for us. Mistakes are more noticable now because we are creating less and scoring less and this makes the errors more costly. And maybe we are making more mistakes. But the question is, why? Different style of play, fewer chances created, more errors, same players, different manager.

It may have slipped some folk's notice, but there is a derby game on tomorrow night. I can't remember a match against County which has been less eagerly awaited and about which there has been so little discussion beforehand. Do we know how many tickets have been sold? How full is the away stand going to be? We really should be filling it every time but will it even be half full tomorrow? We were critical of County fans who stayed away from TCS in droves earlier in the season but will there be any more ICT fans in Dingwall tomorrow night? Will the stand even be half full? There are a lot of reasons why folk might stay away:- The game comes at the end of a long run of games including 2 home games within the last week. Many folk simply can't afford to go to all these games. It's on TV People are disillusioned with the way we are playing and are less inclined to go because of that. With recent results all but extinguishing the chance of improving on last season's position, there is little to play for other than bragging rights. I'd go if I could but I'm committed to attend a retirement do. I can't really get out of it because it's my retirement do! I really hope other folk are up for the game and give great support to the players. There is always a buzz about derby games and often recent form and managers' instructions go out the window. A win tommorrow with the buzz of the occasion and the away support roaring the team on could just get the players doing what they do best and could help turn things around. One thing's for sure, a defeat tomorrow playing a "through the middle" approach will ensure the home stands at TCS are all but empty for the rest of the season. Hopefully there will be a great support tomorrow night and the fans who go will be rewarded for their loyalty.