FoolPhysio

Gents, both good points and I welcome the reasoned debate. Addressing the point re: young referees - there is scope in the Laws and during the training to allow "discretion", but often the individual will think that the easiest way to approach it is as a jobsworth. The Laws themselves allow for this discretion to be applied (the quick free kick, play on etc) but only experience, maturity and dare I say it talent can make the difference between a good decision and a bad one and on such things can a game pivot and the ref suddenly find themselves struggling to retain control. The training process requires refs to progress up the grades (it certainly was in my day and I presume is the same now) so they go via Amateur / Junior, HL and lower leagues before they get anywhere near Div 1 or SPL. There is a fast-track process for those who show both enthusiasm and some basic capability as well but they still need to gain experience first, even if it is cut short in terms of timescale. However, these youngsters are getting the same if not worse abuse at these lower tiers and only the strong-willed would want to power through to the highest levels. Unfortunately, they may not have the required talent to go with that stubbornness and those that did have may have been lost by giving it up as a bad idea. Totally agree with the obvious errors, and this is where the assistant could and should be helping, but I have stated before that the amount of assistance provided is at the discretion of the referee prior to the match and can change on a game by game basis. Effectively, the ref may tailor what they want depending on who is assisting, who is playing and what the type of match it is. There is no hard and fast rule in what the assistant must do, only limits to what they can do, according to the LOTG. One important thing to note is that the referee does have the option to change their ruling, but only before play restarts. They obviously have to be careful that they do not do it often (especially in the one match!!) but we have seen it happen before and will no doubt see it again and in my mind it actually is the mark of a good referee when they can admit the mistake, change it there and then and crack on. However, remember Lennon throwing the toys out at the Hearts match a couple of seasons back? That may explain why, even when they are right to do so, referees now hesitate to be seen to change their minds as it can sometimes be easier to just power on rather than put up with the kind of abuse that King Richard the Third dished out. The irony was, the ruling had actually been in Celtic's favour at the time but Lennon used it as a means to attack the ref when it turned out the reason he gave after the match was not the whole truth and nothing but the truth and he was sensationally accused of being a liar. Not a good way to promote open dialogue but then Lennon was at war at the time and didn't care about the collateral damage he was causing.

Thanks Charles. Much what I suspected, so unless I can get the kids off to their scratcher in time I might miss a portion of the game live, but can keep updated until then. Looking forward to it . . .

I suspect one of the reasons why technology is being resisted is that the Laws of the Game are applied equally regardless of level. There is also the cost - if you choose to introduce it, are you creating a bias where teams eligible for promotion to a higher league based on results is unable to do so due to prohibitive cost? I realise that the same argument could be applied to stadium upgrades but that is just my take on it. The half-ar5ed response to this persistent call for technology to be introduced and especially for determining if a goal has actually been scored was to bring in "line judges" in the Euro 2012 competition, as it was easier to introduce another official. However, this was shown up to be a farce in the England game when a blatant goal was not recognised despite the chap looking at the goal with fierce concentration. Mind you, with the introduction of Sky Sports we have become used to the media using cameras on goal lines yet there are times when even they cannot clearly identify if a goal has been scored (or given incorrectly) so I don't know how effective it would turn out to be. Might resolve some of the more blatant ones though. With regard to fouls well . . . just look at our own discussion regarding OTJ being sent off. It ranged from "obvious red card" to "wasn't really a foul". Watching it time and again may or may not help a referee decide, and consensus of opinion should be avoided at all costs. After all, it is said that the elephant is a cheetah designed by committee!

Had to be them - they needed to give us a change from Celtic . . .

Picked this up off the OTB site (just had a quick reccy to see which way the wind was blowing) - actually a good read: http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/sport/football/barry-wilson-looks-forward-to-a-first-ever-highland-derby-in-the-top-flight-1-2555740

I won't get to see this - don't have ESPN or anything like that - so does anyone know if the BBC Radio will be covering it live or if it will be available online?

Scotty, your post was made while I was composing mine and you have captured some of my points eloquently. Your suggestion of meeting the managers is a valid one but experience tells me that if there was something contentious during the match then often that is NOT the time to do, while emotions can still be somewhere in the stratosphere. I see no benefit in a ref "defending" their performance, because that is what it would be for most fans. Being open and honest is not as welcome or comfortable as some people would like to think it would be, and it could easily degenerate to something resembling a blame-game contest.

Quick question for you - are any of you current or past referees, or (heaven help me for even suggesting this) personally know or be related to one? I am just curious, as no-one here (or on other boards) seems to speak much about the definitive referee oversight mechanism or how it works. And it not only applies to the highest grades, it applies to all SFA qualified referees regardless of the level they choose to officiate at. From the commentary on this and other threads where this is discussed, many seem to think there is no background activity regulating the performance of the referee and that they are the ultimate authority, which although correct in terms of the Laws of the Game and the actual match itself at the time it is played, is not the case in the wider scheme. Referees at the top level will always have an observer present, who is responsible for making a report on their performance and where there is cause for concern, this will be dealt with via internal means. They have to meet minimum performance standards on a consistent basis over an average of matches played. Those who are persistently below par will be quietly replaced. Problem with this can be two-fold - 1) there needs to be games that they are poor in before this can trigger the process and 2) who are the thrusting young up-and-comers pushing to take their place? If there is no one stepping up to be counted, you are left with what there is and if that is not good enough, then who can we really blame for that? People are put off being a ref because really, who apart from a masochist or the mentally challenged would want to do it nowadays? So the problem will never resolve itself. There also has to be an understanding here as to why the authorities are so protective of the concept of the referee as the arbiter of the game - just look at the way nearly every decision is challenged by players, often in an aggressive and confrontational manner. If the status of the referee were to be even slightly diminished, this would only get worse and it would lead to even worse performances at times as refs second-guess themselves or allow bias to creep in just in an effort to keep the aggro level down. It should not be allowed to happen and it may go some way to explain why the SFA seems to have such an entrenched position on the matter. Never underestimate the influence of FIFA in these things as well. Certainly there are times that I, as an ex-referee, will watch a game and see a poor performance that sometimes I just shake my head at. But while a player or two can be below par on the day they can hide more easily - the ref cannot. Their faults and foibles will be there in the limelight for all to see. Talk about pressure. But there are just as many times when I listen to or read comments from fans who make comments on performances that are simply unfair and at times totally unrealistic. What I find strange is that the SFA does not do more to explain about the observer process, but it could be much to do with the points I have made above. I realise this may not be a popular post, and I am not defending referees just because I used to be one, but I hope you will appreciate that I am giving an honest view from what may be seen as "the other side". Only by understanding how it works can we decide if it really is failing and from there work together as lovers of the Game to make it better. Constant dripping about how cr4p it is and how standards are falling is not fixing it, just making it worse.

They are planning doing a Fifa 13 comp with a prize to the person who scores the most past Caley... That what they call "fantasy football" then??

"sentance" Eye halve a spelling chequer, It came with my pea sea. It plainly marques four my revue, Miss steaks eye kin knot sea. Eye strike a quay and type a word, And weight four it two say. Weather eye am wrong oar write, It shows me strait a weigh. As soon as a mist ache is maid, It nose bee fore two long. And eye can put the error rite, It's rare lea ever wrong. Eye halve put this poem threw it, I am shore your pleased two no. Its letter perfect awl the weigh, My chequer tolled me sew. Sauce unknown

I take it that they have heard of the full stop! Every sentance ending in an exclamation mark takes away the emphasis and therefore the point of it! And just makes it look stupid, as if it was written by a 15 year old Media Studies student! Or perhaps it was!

Feck that was close. Wonder how we will do against Celtic in the next round . . . ?

Yes. I have also heard that they have sold out on all their hospitality and they have a waiting list for season tickets having been oversubscribed with all the thousands of supporters flocking to them. Plus Derek Adams took a weeks holiday in the Middle East and solved all their problems there during one lunchtime. Oh to be . . .

They cannot stock a sports shirt because it is made by someone not owned by them? So they don't sell Norwich shirts in Norwich then. Or Italian replica shirts such as Parma's strip? They seem to be happy enough to sell Puma (Newcastle), Nike (Arsenal), and Adidas (Chelsea) though, despite not owning any of them. Sounds like a fopp. They obviously have some grudge against anyone who is not mahoosive in their eyes. Fair dinkum - limits them in certain respects but they make enough money with the stock they do sell so maybe they aren't that interested in all aspects of sport after all and are certainly not locally oriented but just another large soulless chain. Who cares? They can sell what they like. I seriously doubt that someone passes a JD sports shop, looks in the window, sees a strip and says "wow, how pretty, think I will start supporting them now". And you know when you buy from our club shop that it is the club that benefits, not some tawdry retailer.

The referee was posted his "teams not allowed penalties" list post-match and realised his error for which he is now very contrite. Silly boy. He should have known better - there is only one team on the list and it is the same as last year . . .

I am available to play for National team too. There - now I have said it using a public forum I can confidently sit back and wait for Levein to give me a call . . . :-) Tongue-in-cheek, sorry, couldn't resist. Don't agree that just because he has used a public forum that the first move has necessarily been made, as it shows a bit of cynicism towards the media in "well I did my bit it is him who isn't wanting to do what is right" BUT I also think that now it has been widely reported then there is now an opportunity for the manager (and it has to be the manager, not a lackey) to contact him direct and call his bluff. If they can grow a pair and act like adults then this "mis-understanding" can be put behind them and we can get an undoubtedly talented individual back into the squad and into contention for first team selection. However, the underlying problem remains - Fletcher will expect to be picked for every game if he does come back, since that was the problem the first time, and a manager should not be forced into such a situation just pander to individual egos.

Yes - First Division.

The only thing that has annoyed Paw Broon is the fact the referee forgot that ICT are on the "do not give penalties for only against" list. Soon made up for that by denying a later more blatant claim.

Looks like the SPL did the Peepul a favour now that it seems McCoist has actually found his level - 3rd Division suits him. Oh, how I chortled . . . Arrogant barstewards thought they would just walk the Division and any competition they entered. How wrong they are. Opposition is not so diddy now you have to play them week in, week out, are they?

Good one staggie. And you believe everything you hear from OTB??? :******:

Up where? Linky??

Posted Yesterday, 05:08 PM FoolPhysio, on 30 August 2012 - 10:02 AM, said: Attendance was only 672 though but well done to the ICT singing section who were more vocal in the 2nd half and kept encouraging the players when they were foraging at the Arbroath goal end. They must have found one more after the announcement at the ground then!

I enjoyed that last night. Nice ground, friendly competition and spectators on both sides. No segregation and no need for it - fantastic. Herds of spectators moving from one goal end to the other (never seen that before, fabulous!). Team played with determination and competence, a good flowing style that utilised a lot of passing movement - there was still a lot of high balls up field that worked reasonably well most of the time but could be suspect against a more experienced SPL back 4, but no evidence of the old hoof'n'rush that we have suffered from in the past. And throughout I had an excellent chat with another life-long ICT supporter who is studying in Aberdeen and had also made the journey down to watch the game, good craic. Attendance was only 672 though but well done to the ICT singing section who were more vocal in the 2nd half and kept encouraging the players when they were foraging at the Arbroath goal end.

How do you come by this? Will be leaving work shortly to drive down, just curious.

Absolutely. But potential banana skins all the way.