CaleyD

Couple of things that I saw watching the game on TV that people at the match probably missed that really worried me about Burley. First thing was that with about 5 minutes to go Butcher was trying to convince him to make a change of some kind and Burley just stood there shaking his head saying no....looking very much like a man who had given up. Second thing was that during the post match interview he came across as being a bit "out of it". He looked like he was struggling hard to keep his composure, a man on the edge. I'm not saying he should be sacked....my opinion on that at the moment is that with the current football setup in this country (from top to bottom) then it doesn't matter who the manager is as they are battling the odds....but, regardless of the players available and the setup in place then we need a manager who is mentally strong and Burley seemed to be wavering a bit in that regard. I believe that there's only one man able to bring abut the changes needed in football in Scotland....Sir Alex Ferguson....like it or not (and I actually sway towards the not liking it) he's probably the only person with enough presence and clout to get us sorted out. Nobody in the game in this country is going to deny him what he wants, and although that might bring a few problems in the short term, it would benefit us in time. I'm not necessarily talking about making him the Team Manager as he'd probably be more effective as head of the SFA or something along those lines where he'd have real influence.

Only here for the money??? You're having a laugh right? As I've said before, I believe Vigurs was released because he was asking for more than we were willing to pay. So, if anything, we've got rid of a mercenary who was more interested in money than playing for his "local" club.

I highlighted one extreme and ridiculous point about the expectations of one person who thinks an improvement on last season would be what they found acceptable. I questioned that because being in a different league with a different budget etc makes it impossible to quantify as an expectation. You make a very good point about the club statement on bouncing straight back. A bad move by the club, IMO, and setting themselves up for a fall, especially when they haven't done anything to back it up in terms of spending. People talk about Board Members etc investing money in the club, and whilst I'm of the opinion that it should not be expected of them, I am also of the opinion that if they are going to make wild claims about the clubs aims then they should be willing to back that up. As it is, they have made the statement and now expect the Manager to deliver it on a shoestring....and when it doesn't happen, it's the manager and players who will get the flak. So, some people's expectations have been elevated by that statement from the club, and they do have to accept any backlash from that. Butcher can only work with what he is given, and I think he's done pretty well to put together the squad he has considering he's had NO money for transfer fees. What I'm looking for this season is a return to a team that plays with a bit of fight and gives 100% out there on the pitch. At the start of the year we had all but lost that under Brewster, we had a squad who's heads were quick to go down and a lot of players trying to hide when out there on the pitch.....so in that respect I think we have already improved. What would be a failure? Not getting the best from the squad we have and/or signing a load of duds. The first point is up in the air at the moment as the team are still gelling, but I think the second part is mute point because I'm pretty satisfied with what I've seen from most, if not all, of the new signings. Has the football improved? Hard to quantify, but looking at football under Brewster and then when Butcher arrived then yes....moving in to this season, I think it's very much a case that we have to accept that we're going to get a different kind/standard given the different league. Has the squad improved? No, but in saying that I fully expected the standard of the squad to have dropped given our situation. You can't drop a division and expect the squad to get better....especially without any money to spend on it. Some people seem to be under the impression that Butcher released all these players simply because he didn't rate them or whatever. Whilst a couple may have been released for those reasons you also have to remember that some had already decided to move on before the end of the season, the club decided to get rid of most of the U19's (Butcher had to fight to keep what he did), the club weren't willing/able to meet the wage demands of some so had to let them go and some just weren't willing to sign new contracts. I actually think we were lucky to hold on to some of the players we did and not to find ourselves in a situation where we were looking at a totally new squad. Yes, we're looking at a team with a high % of new players, but that is also in part due to injuries and suspensions. Tokely is back now, but we still have Imrie and Odhiambo out, both players who I would expect to see as strong contenders for coming back into the starting line-up when fit.....meaning we're looking at a starting 11 with only 3 or 4 new faces, which is what you might expect going into any new season, regardless of whether you had been relegated/promoted or not. It's very easy to take a polarised view on something because it allows you to ignore the facts you don't want to give consideration too in order to try and make a case for your opinion. All I'm saying is that, as in many cases, the actual situation probably lies somewhere in the middle. I'm not claiming that everything is great and things are 100% as the might/should be....but we're a long way from the picture of disaster that some people are trying to paint.

It really is quite a sad state of affairs when some fans start to almost will failure on the manager. It's as if the desire to be able to say "I told you so" outweighs the desire to see the team/club succeed. I appreciate that times arise, such as with Brewster, when enough is enough and even with the best will in the world it's impossible to accept what is happening, but surely we are a long, long way from that with Butcher? I can also, to a certain extent, accept that those who are not willing to give Butcher an inch are of the opinion that he is not good enough for this club, but surely he deserves the time and opportunity to prove himself and that can't be done in half a dozen matches. There's nobody out there who can honestly say with any conviction that things have not improved since Butcher arrived at the club...so the argument that he must move the team forward to win them over is a mute one as that's already happened/happening. I read in the passing that someone would deem an improvement on last year as acceptable....how we going to manage that having dropped a league and working on a far tighter budget? It's almost as if some people are still in denial of the fact that we were relegated and still expect us to operate on the same level as we did in the SPL. I've yet to see anything which comes close to a convincing argument for the stick that Butcher has been getting from a small (but vocal) minority of people on here....and the observations cast upon us by the visiting Brentford fan are well off the mark, yet some will see it as vindication for their views.

I've spoken with the Supporters Trust and they have agreed (in principle) to assist with the running of the bus for this. I'll be getting some costings and stuff sorted for it this week so will be able to give more information on that soon.

Butcher says in the Courier that he rested Lionel following the treatment he got from the fans at the County game and he'd not had a chance to talk it over with him yet.

I think a lot of our fans (especially the younger ones) forget that ICT existed prior to our promotion to the SPL.

I think it's a little unfair to compare Fraser and Esson. IMO, Fraser is not yet the finished article and still has the potential to become one of Scotland's top Keepers. Although some might say he suffered from playing second fiddle to Brown for so long, only to get his chance when he left and see it snatched away again when Esson arrived at the club, I'm more of the opinion that he should have shown a little more patience. He jumped ship at the end of the season and we all saw what happened to him on a "bigger" stage at the start of the season....something which will have done him more harm than good, and he's basically found himself right back where he was at a couple of seasons back, with a bit of a black mark on his record. We've been rather fortunate in the keeper department over the years (with a couple of obvious exceptions) and I think we have another great keeper in the making with young Allison who's done himself proud when given the opportunity. As I understand it, prior to pre-season Allison was only ever going to be considered third choice and Butcher was desperate to bring in another keeper. Following his showing in pre-season games he managed to change Butchers mind and is very much thought of as a capable back-up for Esson.

It's not their last hope, they still have the Court of Sports Arbitration and then the law courts beyond that should they wish to pursue the case.

Soon as it went to penalties I turned to my brother and said that it would be Esson that would win the game for us. I believe that to save penalties a keepers mind has to be in the right place, and given the fact that Esson had a couple of instinctive saves during the game I felt he was going to be well up for the penalty shout out. Esson is one of the players I think we are very fortunate to have managed to hold on to this season, especially when you consider that their was a couple of "bigger" teams out there looking for keepers over the summer.

You're right....some people have been absolutely dreadful when it comes to offering congratulations to Butcher and the team.

If it goes ahead, and I think it might from the response, then I wouldn't see any reason why people couldn't picked up on route.

I don't think too many people are berating fans for being upset at the (non) performance against C*unty....it's the fact that some seem to have taken that too far and are calling for heads to roll after only a single defeat that many are challenging.

We should be 5 up by now....sack Butcher :021:

So Feckin Easy......Looks like it was the better Scotland Squad that turned up today.

The way I view it...and I've not always got it right...is that there's a time to speak up and a time to accept that what you say does more harm than good and you just have to accept a situation and try and make the best of it. Some people voiced a concern over Butcher when the initial rumours broke of his appointment, and that's fine as there's a chance (albeit a slim one) that those opinions could still influence the decision. It was the same with Brewster when it first came to light he was being considered (or was a shoe-in) for a return to ICT for a second spell in charge. I was among those who had grave concerns about his reappointment, but once it was a done deal I got behind him and the team and did my utmost to support the team as a whole. Only after a sustained period of bad form/results and it becoming blatantly obvious that he was ripping the heart out of the team did I then take up my "anti-Brewster" stance once again. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows, but I think Butcher should be afforded that same courtesy (as should any new manager). It's far, far too early to be making any call on whether Butcher is up to the task this season and, IMO, those who choose to decry the man at every opportunity only serve to make his job harder. Get behind the man, get behind the team and play your part as the "12th man". If it doesn't work out then you can hand on heart say you did your part.....because right now it's as if we have a certain group within the fanbase that seems to be willing him to fail, and to what ends? So they can say "I told you so?" What good does that do ICT?

What he's done in the past matters not a jot. It's what he does in the here and now. Nobody is being asked to "blindly support" anyone, just get off the guys back and give him a chance to do his job. Get over yourself.

It's all demand, demand, demand and take, take, take with many (maybe even the majority) of our fans. Fans complain that we've not signed this player or that player etc, yet when asked to do their part, to maybe give up a couple of hours of their time or whatever to help out the club to reduce spending and perhaps give the manager a few extra quid then the silence is deafening. I'm sorry, but until such time as the fans can say they are doing all THEY can to support and help this team/club then they have little room to be judging those who are doing their best....let alone judge those who have, so far this season, done pretty well over the piece. Losing faith in Butcher??? Don't make me laugh.....I'm surprised he's not losing faith in us!!!

Not just a roll.....a roll call!!!

Just had a message saying that the Tartan Marchers have made it to Glasgow. Well Done Guys, hope the team put on a show to match your efforts tomorrow. Don't forget you can donate to the good causes they did this for at www.TartanMarch.com

"SWISS"

We've had a few players over the years who've taken a while to get going but proved invaluable to the team. Dargo, Wyness, Juanjo to name three that are in-keeping with the type of player we're talking about.

Would they or should they? Two very different questions. I don't think they would, as I don't believe it is within them to see beyond the end of their own noses at times. As to whether they should or not, that is a call for the Manager to make. If he thinks the forwards would benefit from having some specialist coaching and he thinks that an ex-manager is the man for that job then I don't see the issue if funds are available to allow that to happen. Dealing specifically about Butcher and Robbo, I don't think Butcher would be at all undermined or feel threatened in any way by having an ex-manager on the staff and I also don't think Robbo would bring/cause any issues if he was to find himself in the roll of striking coach.

I don't think anyone is failing to see anything, it's just that some are more willing/able to look beyond the simplistic view that anyone who has left has been as a result of the managers wishes. We lost players through their own personal decision to leave, we lost players because we were unwilling/able to meet their wage demands and we lost players as a result of our U19's being abolished. Sure, we might also have lost a couple because Butcher just didn't rate them, but that happens in most squads when a new manager comes in. Let's not forget that it was only a few weeks ago we were discussing how Butcher actually managed to secure places for 3 or 4 of the younger lads by putting his foot down and demanding that the club retain them/bring them back after returning from holiday to find they'd all been shown the door so it's not all been one way traffic and mass clearouts of everyone. The number of fans who seem incapable of forming a balanced view and who refuse to acknowledge any fact that doesn't fit with their views is more worrying than anything else.