DoofersDad

Swearing at a football match! Never thought I'd live to see the day.

Great results elsewhere today as well!

Good news because I think he can do a good job for us. When our absent midfielders are back there will be a lot of competition which I suppose is no bad thing. A down side is that this will make it less likely that we will see Pepper being given a chance.

Two options. 1. Don't sell Billy 2. Sell Billy and get someone else in with part of the profit. Perhaps there is someone lined up should Billy leave who would like to come here but has other options. Hence a time frame in which the club would do business on Billy. My view is we shouldn't sell. No reason why he shouldn't keep scoring. Keeping him would increase our chance of success at the end of the season and would allow time to negotiate a bigger fee with someone in the summer.

It really is quite shameful and demonstrates that those running The Rangers are not fit people to do so. Despite playing week in, week out against dross opposition, the fans of this odious club support their new team in huge numbers and buy club merchandise thereby putting very substantial amounts of money into the club's coffers. The fact that The Rangers' board now have to impose pay cuts means that they have totally mis-managed the finances of the club despite the scrutiny of what is happening. Their ugly cousins across the city must be laughing their heads off. The sensible approach for The Rangers was to keep wage costs low in the early years and make best use of talented youngsters. Income could have been invested to pay for wages when they hit the big time again. A knock on effect of this strategy would have been the emergence of youngsters who would be good enough to play at the top level and who would not cost as much as the established players they will need to invest in. Their irresponsible strategy may have allowed them to win the diddy leagues by a country mile but it will make them less competetive against Celtic when finally they reach the top tier.

Couldn't agree more. However well intentioned this may be it is simply not appropriate. I don't mean to sound flippant or disrespectful but what would happen if the minute's applause started just as Billy slotted in the opener? Are the Aberdeen fans going to keep clapping for a minute as our team celebrates the goal? If he was a well known and respected fan then perhaps the Aberdeen fans could persuade their team to wear black arm bands, or they could have a few collection buckets for an appropriate charity? At least that would allow the "respect" of the fans to be shown in a rather more tangible way.

I don't think he had a hope of stopping that but I do agree his lack of reaction is quite extraordinary. He barely moves from his relaxed pose even when Brill lands at his feet after his dispairing dive.

Nobody who is expressing a critical opinion regarding Nick Ross is claiming any deeper understanding than anyone else or has "delusions of Fergusion football knowledge", we're simply expressing an opinion and are as entitled to do that as others who think Nick is a key member of the team. It would be nice if we could offer an honest opinion without firstly being criticised by you simply for disagreeing with team selection, and then being subject to snide comments when we respond to that criticism. Perhaps next time you post you might like to enlighten fellow forum members with your views on some topic rather than simply insulting people and acting as self appointed keyboard censor.

So the manager never makes an error of judgement or he wouldn't be the manager of this club. And therefore those of us who watch the matches shouldn't have the audacity to make any critical comment as we clearly have no idea what we are talking about. What complete and utter nonsense! Whilst accepting that the manager usually does know better than anyone on this forum, managers certainly don't get it right all the time. Interestingly you mention how the manager sees the players on the training ground as well as at the game, but actually that is often part of the problem. Often players demonstrate attributes on the training ground that simply do not get translated into the match situation. Managers then persist in them in the hope that they will come good on match day or simply keep picking them because their overall impression is that the player who shines on the training ground is the better player - others don't get a look in. Butcher's insistence on playing Barrowman rather than Rooney when he first came here was a case in point. I also remember more recently when many of us were questioning Butcher persisting playing Shane Sutherland on the wing, Caley D defended the manager by saying we should see the things he was doing on the training ground. Well, he might have been great on the wing on the training ground but he wasn't on a match day - and now he's at Elgin. You don't win points by playing well on the training ground - it's the performance on match days that matter and the paying customer has every right to comment on it.

This'll be to keep OTJ company on the bench?

Apart from power, another attribute for a penalty is accuracy. Rooney had a great record of penalty kicks and whilst the keepers always knew it was going low to their right they could never get there. He was always so accurate with his placement and hit it firmly, but not so hard that he lost control of where it was going. That's a rare skill which not many have. But if you mix it up a bit so the keeper is genuinely guessing then you have more margin for error. A success rate of 80% shouldn't be an unreasonable ask. In the EPL from the start of season 2002/3 to the present, 79% of all penalties have been scored. Sneckboy's figures above suggest we are around 70% so we really should be doing a little better in this department

Fair enough to have a go at folk who shout abuse at players at a game but I fail to see what is wrong with making objective criticism of players on this forum. If this forum is not for expressing opinions then what is it for? I don't think it is supportive to the team simply to praise the praiseworthy and keep quiet about aspects which are not so good. If folk feel particular players are not making quite the contribution to the team as they should be and feel there are better options, then it is surely supportive to the team to voice those views. Nick Ross has been a "promising" player for a number of years but IMHO has not lived up to that promise. He has some nice little touches but rarely makes a particularly telling contribution to the game. He has now had a long run in the team and in my view the team needs someone rather more creative and incisive and with an eye for goal. I can't see that we would be any worse off by giving Christie or Pepper a decent run in the side. If all our players were available then I would put Shinnie back to left back and play Vincent, Draper, Foran, Doran, Watkins, and Mckay. With the option of Tremarco at left back releasing Shinnie into midfield as well as the availability of Greenhalgh, Christie, Pepper, Williams and Polworth then Ross would struggle to even get on the bench. TM4J's suggestion of putting him out on loan is a sensible one in my view. Personally I feel Ross is not quite up to the standard required, but if he does have the ability to justify him being selected ahead of these other players, it is not being translated into performances on the park. A period on loan at a lower level may just give him the opportunity to shine and gain a bit of confidence. In my view that would be supportive of both him and the team. No doubt others will leap to Nick's defence and that would be good. That is what the forum is all about. Support the players on the park however bad they play, but please let's not stifle honest opinions about the players on this forum.

No. It's people who don't like short contracts saying they don't like short contracts when short contracts are offered and people who don't like longer contracts saying they don't like longer contracts when longer contracts are offered. My take is that longer contracts should be offered for the better players. It provides consistency and offers potential for income should decent offers come in. A longer contract is a real risk with fringe players (unless they are not being paid much) but the carrot of a longer contract should be there if they can prove themselves.

Can't accuse the new manager of lacking passion. Had to have treatment at half time for a cut on his head caused by cutting it on the duggout when he jumped up to celebrate Billy's goal! Said on his post match interview that he may need to wear a helment like Peter Cech. Quality!

This was my first chance to go to a game since Yogi took over and I fellt it was a pretty good game on the whole. For a while after they equalised I feared we could get over-run but we tightened up and gave their more creative players very little space when on the ball. As the game wore on we got better and created some decent chances. With Foran, Draper and Vincent all out this was the sort of match which could have been difficult and I think credit must go to Shinnie in particular for us managing to have the majority of the possession. Shinnie was my MOTM but apart from that I think IHE has it about right. The disappointment for me was again Nick Ross. He can be a neat and tidy player and it was he who put Shinnie through for the penalty incident, but apart from that he huffed and puffed to little effect. We suddenly looked far more threatening when he came off and surely his days in the starting line up must be numbered. Williams was OK, but having moved wide I was hoping for a bit more from him and Greenhalgh offered more guile and threat we he came on near the end. Good calls from Yogi to substitute the 2 of them although doing so earlier might have reaped rewards. Brill rode his luck and hopefully he'll learn from today. However, just one observation about his distribution. Sometimes it is very poor and I wonder why he doesn't quickly throw or bowl the ball out more. It was an open game and often he had Doran, Williams or Tremarco in clear space but just hoofed the ball up the park. In contrast, Cierzniak threw the ball out on two or three occasions and set up promising moves. More positives than negatives today though. It looks to me that we could consolidate our position as a mid table / top six side under Hughes - and do that by playing good attacking football. We just need that little bit more confidence in front of goal and we could go on a run again.

I for one would be pleased if he returned. I felt he was under-rated when he was here because he started slowly and I think had already been written off by many as just an average player at best before he began to develop some decent form. He has good vision and IMHO is a better player than Nick Ross and would provide more incisive linkage with Doran and Mckay. He also scores more than Nick and is probably better at free kicks than anybody we have at the moment.

I think he will be a good signing for them. It is a very strong attacking line up United have and I would not be surprised to see them end the season as runners up.

...and 5 points ahead of them. Had Dundee United not got a late equaliser we would still be 4th but only 3 points ahead of the team in 6th.

I'll not be buying it but it borought a smile to my face and fair play to the guy for the effort - I wish I had the talent to do something like that. It's not going to be a club anthem but it's the sort of song that if sung to a group of fans in the pub or the coach would earn a big round of applause.

Can't agree with that. It is after all only a handful of players from the 50s and 60s who are talked about as "greats". The 3 exceptional players Dougal mentions undoubtedly bear comparison to the likes of Ronaldo and Messi in the modern game but bear in mind we are not comparing like with like as the nature of the game and the level of media exposure is so different now. Eusebio, Puskas and Pele played in a much harder era. Pitches were much more uneven and referees did not afford the kind of protection flair players receive these days. Flair players were targets for the defensive hard men who not only tackled hard but who routinely kicked and dead-legged opponents off the ball. They got away with that because there were few games being televised and even when they were, there might only be one or two cameras following the ball. It was only exceptional players with a mental and/or physical toughness to go with exceptional ball skills that came through these handicaps to shine. Remember also that the limited TV coverage of matches means that only a fraction of what these players did on the park is recorded and therefore it sometimes gives the impression that their fame is based on just 2 or 3 outstanding performances. Make no mistake, the 3 players Dougal identifies were exceptional players in their day and would have been exceptional players in any era.

You seem to forget that prior to Butcher leaving, Foran, when asked about his future, had stated that it depended on what the manager was going to do. Butcher goes and Foran signs. It's interesting but it doesn't stink. Any candidates coming to the club knew that Foran had signed and if they didn't like it then they had a choice as to whether to apply or not. I reckon the signing of Foran will have been seen as a positive thing as far most managerial candidates were concerned.

Far too early to make judgements on Hughes' performance although perfectly reasonable to comment on specifics such as Raven's omission from the starting XI. All teams have good and bad spells. Dundee United looked invincible recently with a run of 6 wins on the trot, scoring 4 or more in 5 of those games. They have now lost 3 in a row including losses by 3 clear goals to St J and St M. It happens.

Having been away for a few weeks I have yet to see ICT play under JH. Whilst not my first choice, I was not unhappy with his appointment but from what I am reading there are some worrying signs. To be fair to Hughes, it is always difficult taking over a team that is doing well. If you go into a winning dressing room and immediately change things then you set yourself up for criticism if the level of performance dips at all. I think Hughes has taken the view that he wants to observe the set up he has inherited. That's fair enough but the dip in form which had been apparent before Butcher left has accelerated. Before Butcher left we had lost the fluidity of early season but still managed to win ugly from time to time. With the uncertainty of what the new manager wants and now with Foran's injury the form has slumped further and points are hard to come by. Hughes has now had plenty of time to observe the team and it is time to take some decisive action to stop the slide. We do have to be patient though. In my view, the success of early season was built on the midfield strength of Vincent, Foran and Draper. They were effective at breaking up the play and providing defensive support to allow Raven and Shinnie to press forward on the flanks. This in turn created space and opportunity for the forward players to create scoring opportunities. The loss of Vincent has been a significant factor in a gradual loss of form and we can't expect the same level of performance with Foran out, let alone Draper as well now. We are going to struggle in the next few games whatever Hughes does and this must be seen as an opportunity to give other players a chance and see how they perform on the big stage. Coaches may learn a lot from the training ground but you never know how players will perform in a match until they have a genuine opportunity on match days. Hughes will not be unaware of how we played earlier in the season and he will have studied all the videos. What worries me, therefore is why on earth Raven is not starting at right back if he is fit. Surely Hughes knows how effective he was pressing forward and how much better Doran plays when Raven is offering support? The experiment of playing Shinnie on the right must end. Raven is better at RB and in the absence of both Vincent and Foran (and now Draper as well) I feel we really need Shinnie playing in a ball winning midfield role. The limited use of subs is also perplexing - there would be a lot to learn by using subs earlier when certain players in the starting XI are having an off day. We also have to play to our strengths. Up front we have an instinctive but very small striker in McKay supported by Ross and Doran who are also small. The long high ball is clearly not the way to go. We need to stretch the play wide and play the ball to feet and into the spaces. It really isn't rocket science. In that context, one final point about the importance of Raven playing down the right is that most teams in the league are better defensively on the right than the left. IMHO Raven and Doran should be encouraged to expose these weaknesses, get behind the defense and drill low balls into the centre for Billy. Not only is this likely to be our most productive route to goal, it is also great to watch.

Hartley was not impressed with the boards dilly dallying I hear . That may be true but that would not be a reason for turning down an offer. It would suggest that Hartley was not convinced that the job was for him and was looking for an excuse to turn us down. Our Board may not do things quickly but I am sure they do things correctly and Hartley would know that he would get good support from this Board. But if he doesn't want the job then so be it. It's a shame because I think he would've been good for ICT and ICT would have been good for him.

BBC news reporting that both Hartley and Shiels have been ruled out. Hughes has also been interviewed and is now expected to be offerred the job