CaleyD

Caley and ICT for me....not got any other teams but I do regularly take a look around to see how some past players are getting on with teams they are at. The BIG question for me is, who did Mantis support before Caley were formed?

All "ifs" and "might haves" in his defense....my opinions are based on the facts of how things played out. For me it has nothing to do with him (or Pele) leaving, nobody can deny the great job they did whilst here and I'll always appreciate that. What gets on my goat is the manner in which he conducted himself on his departure and that smarmy ersed interview in which he showed a total lack of respect for ICT....that kind of behaviour cannot, for me, be excused. If he chose to do a signing at the stadium I wouldn't lose any sleep and if the club shop chose to stock it and make a few quid themselves, then great. I'll probably buy/borrow it for a read at some point as it contains sections on his time at ICT, but I'll not be falling over myself to meet him to get a signed copy.

Off Topic posts moved here

Yeah, because agents operate with absolutely no self-interest whatsoever!!! The fact that churning is illegal in many industries (apart from Dairy obviously) and yet football agents earn a living from it says it all really.

I'm not so easily sold on that last paragraph. If the mindset existed to take such a huge gamble on achieving promotion, I'm not so sure they wouldn't have continued to take big risks in order to sustain SPL status and/or climb the table. I'm also not convinced that those who made the decision to gamble weren't fully aware of the fact that failure would mean administration (or worse)....and therein lies the problem when you have a setup whereby the decision makers are not held properly accountable to the wider community, morally or financially. Not a situation unique to Dundee and the fact that clubs are in a position where they are almost forced to take risks that no other business would take is, again, an indication of the fundamental issues that exist with how the football industry operates...from top to bottom.

PMF....just as we were happy to see our team promoted at the expense of Dundee, or any of the other teams struggling to make ends meet in Div 1. That's the (unfortunate) nature of the beast and none of us would refuse promotion for our club in order to "save" another....so your point is unfair in that regard. TWS, not only is Heilandee a long standing and welcome member of these forums, he is also well known to many of us in the real world and has been in attendance at the home end of TCS on many occasions. Please don't latch on to my posts and attempt to use them as a GIRUY reference aimed at this user....I far prefer to engage in more sensible conversation on the matter, as has been the case between myself and Heilandee. I think we all have some "right" to be a little aggrieved at the Dundee situation, but it would be extremely foolish to assume any kind of superior position or to look down our noses at the Dundee fans. The majority of the fans at ICT wouldn't be able to spot an ICT Director in a crowd of two, let alone have any idea about the clubs financial situation or the mechanics of the clubs operation.....a situation mirrored at the majority of clubs up and down the country. Situations like this should serve as a warning and have us asking questions of our own clubs to ensure it doesn't happen closer to home. Choosing to instead play a game of pointing and laughing at the misfortunes of others is a dangerous game and one which does little more than tempt fate.

You know me well enough to appreciate that my comments are certainly not born out of any "self righteous indignation" and that I would not put ICT forward as holding any moral high ground when it comes to financial matters. A little naive if they thought 26% would prevent/protect against a single investor taking overall control and whilst I haven't read the DFC Articles and Memorandums I would imagine the only thing it does give you is the power to block changes therein. As the club is effectively controlled by the Board, whoever controls them controls the club. At ICT we have/had* a situation whereby Tulloch Homes only required a 25% shareholding in order to appoint 75% of the Board and the Chairman....they have, in effect, become self selecting (the Board choose new Board Members) and it would take a 75% vote to change it. As Tulloch Homes own more than 25% then, effectively, someone could buy up all other shares and still not have control. Like Dundee, we are exposed to the same dangers...as, I imagine, are the vast majority of clubs. (*Changes to the number of Board Members permissible at last AGM will have an impact on this situation) We've had cash in the bank for many years, and in that regard have been fortunate. However, it came at a cost as we don't own the stadium. You could argue that was a good thing as it has removed the temptation to borrow against the family silver and you could argue that it's a bad thing as it has left us heavily indebted to others..even if not in a financial manner. We are all fully aware that last year was budgeted for with an element of risk and we were told so at the time, but the risk was one which would have done little more than empty the bank had it failed. What's more, we had already made many cuts immediately following relegation and that included a player wage structure that was heavily weighted towards performance related bonuses. In fact, the club ended up about £200k worse off than budgeted for over the season as a result of the good run we went on, so even our success had some negatives!!! What we wouldn't have been faced with is insurmountable debt and we would have been in a position to cut the cloth and bring spending within the means of the club. Had Dundee cut costs at the start of this season I feel it would have done little more than delayed the inevitable as your problems, as it now transpires, go back even further. Even as we speak Dundee are not operating within their means as they are relying heavily on fundraising to get by...they may not be in receipt of that money, but the promises and signs that money is there is preventing the plug being pulled. I fully understand what a CVA is and was making no interpretation, simply pointing out that I don't necessarily agree with the mechanism. Also, let's face it, if decision were made purely on "viability" then no administrator in his right mind would allow a football club to continue trading under current business models once it had gone into administration. The point I'm making is that what right does Dundee FC (or any business) have to "be saved" if their mismanagement has sent others to the wall? What makes someones job there more important than a job which may be lost as a result of their only returning X pence in the pound to someone they owe money too? Liquidation does not mean creditors get nothing, it means all assets are sold and the proceeds divided up among them. What I am saying is that if that process would give a larger return for creditors then it should be the one used unless investors (and or fans) are willing to provide sufficient funds to make the CVA the more attractive offer. If it's affordable and not to the long term detriment of the club, then why not? For the record, and I am sure I said it elsewhere, I have no desire to see Dundee go to the wall or disappear. However, I am getting fed up of the same thing happening time and again within football and nobody doing anything about it. Fans do little/nothing, clubs do little/nothing, our football associations do little/nothing and our government/courts do little/nothing. There's small glimpses of positive change coming from higher up at FIFA and UEFA, but they are a few years off and we could easily lose a half dozen clubs by the time they come in to effect. Until we ALL start getting our head out of our butts and start facing up to the fact that nearly every one of our clubs is one bad decision being made by one small group of people away from extinction then nothing will change and we'll continue to lurch from one disaster to another. The days of throwing money in buckets to help has passed, IMO. It is not curing the problem and lessons should have been learned long ago and continually throwing good money after bad is not the answer. The fact that fans are going around cap in hand to raise money to support a regime which shows no sign of changing for the better is, quite frankly, obscene and until that changes then we are every bit as culpable for the problems that exist in the way clubs are run as anyone else.

I wouldn't support an instant liquidation order, but I do think the regulations should stop CVA's which offer ridiculous levels of "compensation" to those due money. If a liquidation would generate more money than a CVA then that should be the route taken. If the clubs/fans/investors wish to prevent that then they should pay out what is due. A system which allows clubs to continue trading without paying it's debts and risking the financial well being of other businesses is wrong. Whilst everyone rallies to help Dundee FC, who is rallying to help all the companies that have lost money due by the club to them? I would support a system which offered a reduction in the penalty for paying debts in full and coming out of administration with a fixed timescale. What I don't currently support is a club/organisation/business which is allowed to continue trading and is being kept alive by fund-raising methods which bypass "the pot" and do nothing to improve the offer that can/will be made to those owed money. The figure of ?500k additional income was been floated around as the amount that was needed to keep the club alive till xmas, so we already know that even under the administrator and taking into account all the cuts made it is not standing on it's own two feet and operating in a profitable manner....in other words, they continue a trading practice which is detrimental to the business and continue to benefit from spending more than they have!!!

Those bidding on such items are likely to be attracted to the "signed" aspect of it and perhaps willing to pay a little more than normal due to the cause it is raising money for. How the Poppy has been applied will make little or no difference in the grand scheme of things and it doesn't make sense to reduce the amount raised by increasing the cost of the application....every penny spent up front is a penny less going to where it is needed.

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Do I really need to make a new one? Click each for full effect....

We don't have a reserves league, but I believe we have been organising regular bounce games to help with getting guys fit and keeping fringe players as sharp as is possible given the circumstances.

There has been a great turn out from ex Caley players who want to play in Roy's testimonial to mark his ten years service to the club. Mark Brown, Jimmy Calder, Bobby Mann, Stuart McCaffrey, Barry Wilson, Liam Keogh, Barry Wilson, Charlie Christie, Paul Sheerin, Dennis Wyness, Graham Bayne & Craig Brewster have all signed up for the night and John Robertson and Pele are going to be managers for the night. Looks like it is going to be a good night with alot of the old faces coming back to Inverness for the night. Barry is such a Legend he's going to do the job of two men!!! Already a great potential line-up in that lot, but I understand there could be more names added yet. Glad to see Brewsters name in there, regardless of what we thought/think of Brewster the Manager, not much fault could be found in Brewster the Player. A word to the wise for Terry & Mo....don't underestimate your opponents for this match!!!

Something in the back of my head is telling me that the situation with Forans stomach was in the papers earlier in the year and it was stated that whilst it was creating discomfort, playing wasn't doing him any further damage. In saying that, he does look to have been suffering more the last couple of games I have seen, and whilst he may not be doing any more damage, I think it is having an impact on his game. The question is....are we better off with an 80% fit Foran or someone else? For me, that all depends on the opposition. If/When we are up against more physical opponents I think we need his presence on the park, but I do think Butcher should (and perhaps might be desperate to) seek opportunities to rest him....if it's going to help. I don't think his playing has cost us any games and we have to trust that Terry knows what the situation is, is keeping a handle on it and will change it if/when it looks likely to become a hindrance to the team.

BS...and if people weren't so quick to be running out the gate at FT they would know that.

Working, so only getting snippets. Last I heard was 1 down.....wtf happened? Lol

That's more 90's than Pat Sharp!!!

I was being serious. Whilst some might have been a little cruel with regards your last video, I thought it was great fun and if a few more people took themselves a little less serious from time to time then that can only be a good thing.

No worries. There's a lot of misinformation gets passed around regarding Supporters Trusts, their intentions and how they should, IMO, fit in to the overall structure of the game. Part of that is of their own making, insofar as not enough is done to educated people on the Supporters Trust Movement (although getting people to listen can also be difficult) and part of it is down to the fact that people view them as some kind of 4th emergency service who should have all the answers and be providing all the solutions when things go wrong at their clubs....something that is very difficult for them to do when fans don't get involved during the "good times" to allow them to prepare for and/or prevent the "bad times". It's easy for fans, and even easier for clubs, to be critical of Supporters Trusts and what they do or don't do. They rant on about accountability within clubs, making the decision makers responsible, wanting to be more "in the loop" about what's going on with the boardrooms etc. Supporters Trusts are the only organisations which currently exist which are geared up to try and provide that, yet the majority of ranters wouldn't be able to tell you the first thing about Supporters Trusts. Unfortunately we live in a world which is developing in to one where people prefer to point the finger and where it's always someone elses place to do the work they demand be done. If fans would put even a fraction of the energy spent mouthing off into actually doing something constructive to bring about the changes they want, then we'd all be in a far better place.

I think if you made a tutorial video to teach everyone how to sing it then that might help. You could even do a whole series of videos for all the different songs/chants. Sing a few versus, then put the words up on the screen...that would be cool.

Drop the word "grant", change Ho to Oh and it works.

I think C1C3 was pointing out that it was the same ref in both games against Celtic.

Supporters Trusts are actually Industrial and Provident Societies (Cooperatives) and are registered/regulated by the Financial Services Authority. Dee4Life is the "trading name" of Dundee FC Supporters Society Ltd and are registered with companies house under the number SP2639RS.

Neither team played great football tonight and I think the win was a result of us wanting it more and battling on regardless of the fact we just couldn't make things click and get a proper performance going. It's that attitude we've (re)developed under Butcher that has us where we are and long may it continue. Esson has already received just praise for his performance and I think he may be using glue on the palms of his gloves given some of the saves he manges to hold....the one in the second half where the ball was played low across the 6 yard box with a fair pace and he caught it at full stretch with one hand was tremendous. I'm also wondering if Odhiambo has been taking flying lessons. He wasn't on the park for long but that goalmouth scramble where he seemed to appear from nowhere to steal the ball off the toe as the shot was being unleashed was fairly spectacular. Shinnie was given another thorough testing this evening and whilst he may still have a lot to learn he never once let the head go down....a very mature performance in that regard and one that will stand him in good stead as he continues to progress. Mackie looked to have taken a sore one in the collision with Esson, hope it's nothing too serious.

Not a classic performance by any stretch but chances are coming and we just need to make them count. Wasn't certain Aberdeen had any fans here they've been so quiet, but someone dropped 50p from their pocket when we got the penalty and the feckers went mental until it had been found.