CaleyD

I disagree, if we still had as much coming in from TV and sponsorship then clubs would just be in an even bigger hole. The problem is not the amount of money coming in, it's the amount going out (or not given the debts) and it's a massive swing in mindset of those who run/are allowed to run the clubs in this country that is the issue. Under the business model used for the majority of clubs there's no incentive for Club Boards to ensure finances are kept properly in check. They can sanction deals and spend without fear as, when it all goes tits up, they can simply walk away. Even if they have invested in clubs it is often by way of the magic "soft loan" and, as is being borne out in Dundee's case, they can use that situation to hold those they owe to ransom...i.e. If you are going to insist on us paying what we owe you now then we'll just put the club in administration and you can join the queue for your 7p in pound settlement. As has been pointed out, we did not have these issues 30 years ago. That's not because we have more or less money coming in to the game, it's because club ownership models have changed. What shocks me is that the changes have proved to be a disaster from day one and nobody within the upper echelons seems willing/able to see that the only way to get things back on track financially is to return to what worked for both clubs and the game for over 100 years previously. Football clubs MUST get back to a community ownership based model or we will just continue to lurch from one financial disaster to another. Only when those changes happen will honest, unselfish and truly democratic decisions start being made which are for the benefit of clubs, the fans and the game as a whole.

Quite happy to see us giving the younger lads a chance and it would even better if more people gave a little appreciation to the contribution they are making instead of looking at, what is no more than mediocre (at best), past players.

I'm guessing BBC Alba might want to change things as it's not going to be too exciting there on Wednesday now!!!

Text from the game suggesting that Nick Ross coming on really changed things for us...for the better. Get the lad on a 10 year deal now.

This could be a very clever move on St Middens part, and one which may just bring about a positive change in regards to the situation surrounding the SPL's "You Must Sit" policy. Imagine the scenario...... St Mirren: Hello SPL, can you confirm the policy on standing at matches. SPL: It's not allowed. St Mirren: What, not under any circumstances? SPL: No. St Mirren: Surely it's an impossible task when people stand up to sing, chant or celebrate a goal for stewards to enforce such a thing. SPL: Yes, that would be ok. St Mirren: So we're not expected to instruct stewards to intervene when people are standing to give vocal support to the team? SPL: That's correct, we wouldn't expect the rule to be enforced under such circumstances. St Mirren: Thank you for clearing that up. St Mirren: Ok fans, we've had it confirmed that so long as you are singing or supporting the team vocally whilst standing then the "You Must Sit" rule is not to be enforced. All you need to do is make sure you are generating noise for 90 minutes in the sections allocated and you'll be just fine. All we need now is for other clubs to follow suit and support St Mirren for being the ones to get the ball rolling. As a slight aside. Those at Celtic Park on Wednesday will have noticed that those of us towards the rear of the Away Support stood for the majority of the match and never got so much as a second glance. However, when we visit there in the league then standing will have suddenly become a dangerous pursuit and people will, more than likely, be forced to sit. Further evidence to back what I have said elsewhere about the whole "sitting" thing being a piece of SPL generated nonsense.

Would that include those who chose to shout abuse and bile at our own fans? That does NOTHING to support the team and to be quite honest, we can do without it. Not everyone goes to a game to jump about, sing and chant like a looney. They certainly don't deserve the crap that was directed at them by a small group of those who proclaim to be somehow better than other fans for whatever disillusioned reasons they may have. As I've said 1001 times, people should worry about themselves and what they do...sing, chant or whatever and others who want to join in will. If some people don't wish to join in, that's fine. I didn't see them turning around to tell people that they should support the team in the manner they choose, and to be honest, had I been among those the vitriol was being directed towards I am not so sure I would have been so restrained in ignoring it. The whole thing was rather disgusting and far more embarrassing than the scoreline.

Don't think he did much wrong, but I would find it hard to place him ahead of Nick Ross on the basis of individual performance last night.

No more or less than I expected and you have to set aside the disappointment of the result and look at the bigger picture. Our number 1 priority this season is league survival...NOTHING else matters and I will happily see us work to protect that league position by whatever means necessary and if that means getting knocked out of every cup 6-0 nothing then so be it. In the cold light of day their were positives to be taken from last night.... Butcher is willing to make the tough decisions for the right reasons Nick Ross played another great game Sutherland showed signs that he is progressing nicely The majority of the team battled to the end despite the scoreline Granted, we didn't look too hot with so many changes and a team so far from what would be the preferred starting 11, but once I got over the initial shell shock I saw some decent individual performances which give me confidence that we have players waiting in the wings who are capable of playing their part in ensuring we gain the top priority of league survival. And to finish...Mahonio, I have read your opinion and respect your right to express it, but I too think your talking a load of codswallop.

The following update from the club.... Tickets are still available for our 3rd round CIS Cup game against Celtic this Wednesday at Park Head. Tickets can be purchased in person from the stadium, by telephone by calling 01463 227451 or via the internet by visiting www.ictfc.co.uk. Tickets will be on sale in Inverness until 12pm on Wednesday so hurry and get your ticket TODAY!! Tickets purchased over the phone or via the internet from Monday (20.09.10) will be taken to Celtic Park and will be available for collection from the ICT minibus in the main car park. In addition to this, the ICTFC Supporters Trust will take a supply of tickets to the game for purchase from the minibus. However, we do heavily recommend tickets are bought in advance from the Club to avoid disappointment. Prices are as follows: Adult - ?15 Season ticket holder - ?10 Concession - ?5 (over 65 or under 16)

I don't subscribe to the "big step up" theory between the first and the SPL, but I do think the style of football is very different and that's where it takes a little time to adapt. What I have seen so far this season is encouraging and looking at the Hearts game I always thought we appeared capable of pulling the game back and getting something from it....a stark contrast to a couple of seasons back when I had little confidence in our ability to score, let alone come from behind. Also, looking at the wider picture, aside from the OF everyone is taking points off everyone else and even at this early stage it's shaping up to be a tight league with nobody looking to be certain for top 6 and nobody finding themselves adrift at the bottom. Our next 4 games are more of the bread and butter variety and if we continue to play as we have, and we can get a couple of players back fit, then I would be expecting us to take twice as many points from them as we have from our opening fixtures. In short, I have seen nothing to worry about this season and so long as we don't start going backwards, in terms of performance on the park, then I'm confident we'll have a reasonably comfortable finish among "the best of the rest".

Afraid you are all going to have to fend for yourselves today on the info gathering front.

What is it with some people who ALWAYS expect to pay less than everyone else? ?15 is a pretty decent price, ?10 for ST Holders is amazing price and everyone is effectively getting in at concession type levels. It seems the more some people get, the more they want.

I would just like to point out that it is not my Birthday, nor was it my Birthday yesterday and it won't be tomorrow either....that is all.

It is an SPL rule and you agree to adhere to those rules when you enter the stadium so you have no real argument. The point I was making is that standing cannot be used solely as a reason for the use of physical force and/or arrest/police intervention. A steward can ask you to leave for breach of the rules...if you refuse then you have crossed the public disorder line and police can be asked to remove you for THAT reason. In other words, a policeman cannot come up and throw you out "because you were standing". A steward cannot use force to remove you "because you were standing". You cannot be arrested for being asked to leave "because you were standing" (so long as you leave voluntarily). With regards the law and standing, lots of people just assume it is legislation off the back of the Taylor Report and the SPL are happy enough for that myth to continue...probably the reason they communicate the rule to clubs via letter as opposed to including it in their own handbook. I have spoken to stewards, supervisors, police and even football club officials who thought it was law/legislation....so it's not just the fans. I'll dig out the appropriate section from the Stadia Act thingymawhatsit when I get a chance, but it basically says each individual must be submitted to a separate numbered seat....but it says nowhere that you must sit. This is why the problem only really exists within football and no other sport and/or stadium event. It's tough for the clubs as they have to adhere to the SPL rules as part of their licensing, and as such need to enforce it or face fine/sanction. Even the police (in the majority of my experiences) think it's stupid, but if a steward asks them to intervene because someone has refused to comply with rules and is being ejected then they have no option but to comply. Unfortunately the whole process top to bottom (and I have seen it) makes little or no allowance for the use of common sense on the part of the individuals who fall along the chain of command.

Don't be so naive as to think we do not have one or two lads who think they are beyond reproach and can do as they please within our support Johnboy. Some were weeded out from the support at TCS last couple of seasons and I hope the club weed out any who appear/reappear this season as they can very quickly spoil things for the majority. I'm not talking about those who stand and sing and say the odd naughty word. It's the ones who really take piss, blatantly break rules (even when rules have been softened to accommodate a happy medium) and then when it all kicks off they play the victim and/or hang their mates out to dry for problems they have caused. In my experience it is rarely the instigators who are collared and carted off....IHE being the obvious exception!!!

As far as I understand it a Steward cannot use Physical Force on anyone unless that person is posing a risk to them, those around them and/or has committed an indictable offence (an offence which would be tried in a magistrates court)...which would allow them to use reasonable force to detain you until a police officer arrives to take over. The laws for treatment of adults and children is pretty much the same from what I gather, although children do have some additional rights under the Child Protection Act. With regards the enhanced disclosure...not sure. I know that those working security in hospitals, community centres etc are all required to have it as they could potentially have to deal with children and vulnerable adults and it's not a huge leap in logic to say that similar could occur at a football match and as such it should be required. In short, unless a person (adult or child) is acting in an aggressive/confrontational manner and/or is posing a risk to safety* of others then a Steward should not lay so much as a finger on them. (*Going by the letter of the law/legislation [sPL Rules are not Law] then standing does not, in itself, pose a risk to safety).

http://caleythistleonline.com/2525-families-to-get-a-kick-out-of-saturdays-game

I agree with TM4TJ....to a point. Everyone knows the rules and by purchasing admittance to the game you agree to adhere to those rules. However, the problem arises due to "human nature". None of us like being told what to do, especially in an aggressive or insolent manner and many of us don't react kindly to such treatment. When we "break" a rule then none of us can have complaint if we are pulled up on it, however we do have complaint when the action is disproportionate to the "offence" being committed. The more disproportionate the action taken against us, the more we dig our heels in and the more pig headed we get. Right or wrong, that's human nature, and those working in a steward/police roll should be more aware of that than most. You then have the fact that as a relatively small travelling support we tend to make it easy for police and stewards to single people and/or small groups out. Add to that the pressure these guys are under from the SPL and the Clubs to spend a disproportionate (there's that word again) amount of time and resources on petty matters such as standing and the odd sweary word instead of dealing with the real problems in some crowds and at some games and it's no wonder the whole thing is a shambles. Heading slightly off topic, but police and stewards are quick to play the "bigger crowds are harder to handle" excuse....nothing but BS IMO. Why? Because if they are claiming a crowd is too big for them to effectively maintain order then they should not be allowing that crowd to gather in the first place. Solution? Limit the number of tickets supplied to clubs where they have a known problem. It won't happen as we all know that money talks and it's easier for them to get their quotas and/or look like they are dealing with issues by ignoring the main ones and focusing on the easy targets. I actually think it's a credit to the likes of ourselves and other smaller travelling supports in the SPL that they haven't (yet) caused a major incident as a result of the treatment they face from police and stewards at some grounds. I also would like to know why the police were in there. It is not against any law/legislation to stand at a football game in Scotland....it is nothing more than an SPL rule. If you are asked to leave by a Steward and refuse, it then becomes a matter of public disorder and police can be asked to assist, but until that point, they have absolutely no jurisdiction whatsoever when it comes to telling you to sit down.

I discovered CTO just at the tail end of the Rivals.net days, joined up there and then we moved a couple of weeks later. Originally posted under BigD/Don. Had a few suspensions and a ban from Sportnetwork before life events forced me out of the picture for a couple of seasons and I then returned as CaleyD, managed to wangle a mod position and from there went on to co-develop the first "stand alone" version of CTO with Scotty when the site effectively outgrew Sportnetwork and could no longer provide the facilities we wanted in order to develop the site and take it to the next level. CTO is kinda going through it's next major transition at the moment on the non-forum side of things and hopefully things continue to develop as we seek to increase the amount of user content. CTO has certainly grown and developed over the years, hopefully that has been largely in line with the wants/needs of the majority of users. Some of it has been better than others and some of it has been a "necessary evil". We haven't always got it right but I like to think that CTO has never been afraid of change or pushing the envelope and has been the better for it. I've had my fair share of disagreements with people over the years but, apart from one, would happily enjoy a pre/post match pint with anyone on here...and have done so on many occasions. Good experiences as a result of CTO certainly outweigh the bad and long may it continue.

For the most part I think the majority of people appreciate the efforts of those in and around Section G. I also think that we finally reached a certain level of understanding between that area and the club in regards to what was acceptable and what was crossing the line last season. What I do worry about is that some within that group will seek to take the piss and push the limits to the point where it will be spoiled for everyone. A situation arose before where one or two were dragging the whole group down with their language and actions and it seems, from my own observations, that there's a danger of that happening again. Nobody on this thread has (seriously) suggested that people should sit quietly but some of the songs/chants aimed at Imrie crossed the line. My suggestion for those at the back of Section G....take heed of what has been said in regards such songs/chants and apply a bit of a sensibility check on yourselves before the club/stewards/police are forced to make an example of someone in order to get the point across and all the work that has been done in finding the happy medium is undone by one or two idiots. My suggestion for the (partially justified) dissenters....get some better fitting underwear and stop getting your knickers in a twist and/or blowing things out of proportion. One ill judged song/chant every once in a blue moon is not the end of the world or cause to tar a whole section of the support in the manner which you do. If you yourself are offended, then fair enough, speak up and let people know, but can we please stop with all this bollocks where you seem to get offended on behalf of others. Worry about yourself and if others are offended then leave it up to them to raise the matter themselves.

Me thinks Munro must read the forum....lol

I was going to say 'unbelievable!' but realise the reverse is more appropriate. Johndo, you did nowt other than create a bit of atmosphere in that morgue... If the cops are so fed up with the stewards why are these problems occuring year after year after year? FFS the cops surely have some authority over these wannabe traffic wardens in hi-viz jackets. The police have no powers to do anything unless laws are being broken. What always gets me though is that if I behave in an "aggressive" manner I can be huckled off under threat of Breach of the Peace, but they never apply the same logic when it's a Steward acting aggressively or inciting problems. Didn't make the game but it's more than likely it's the same stewards who were at Den's last year too. Complete idiots who cause more problems than they solve with their attitudes, one even 'square go'd' me at the end of the 2nd game as I tried to point out that there were better ways of handling a well behaved crowd than being aggressive and threatening to throw people out... Sadly the Police have no direct authority as the stewards are employed by the club alone and the Police are there as a legal requirement. While they work together in a lot of situation, and often quite well at other venues, the Police can only advise the club if there are any issues. Excessive officiousness, unfortunately, isn't illegal so there is very little they can do. Like IHE said above, technically they are correct and can hide behind the rulebook, in reality they are just jobsworth numpties! There's no legal requirement for police to be employed by football clubs at matches. However, the situation is such that the police can more or less dictate how many officers they want in attendance (and being paid for) and if the clubs refuse then they (police) have the power to prevent the match going ahead on the basis of their being a safety risk. A lot of confusion also exists in regards to what is law/legislation and what are club/league rules. The best example being that it is not against the law or any legislation to stand in an all seater stadium. The legislation states that everyone must be assigned a seat, but nowhere does it say you must sit in it. It's an SPL Rule that you must sit, I have seen the letter to the clubs, and on last checking it wasn't one that had made it in to the handbook. I also know, having spoken with senior police officers on the matter, that they have no real concerns over swearing in the vast majority of cases. However, as swearing is considered a Breach of the Peace then if the Stewards flag it to them they have no choice but to intervene/take action. In brief, the whole system with the SPL and stewarding etc seems more designed to create problems than it does to prevent them.

I think it was more of a case that Billy Reid knew how to beat Brewster....as did many other managers. ICT may still have many of the same players, but we are a very different team to the one which Billy Reid knows.

Like the guy as both a player and a person but his time with us is now consigned to the history books and he's now part of the opposition. A gentlemanly welcome as he takes to the pitch and then Munro hitting him with a big challenge early doors to give the message that no quarter will be given and then we can just get on with the rest of the game.