DoofersDad

We won't get relegated. But if we did we could always look forward to doing some giant killing by knocking County out of the cup. No! Considering beating County as giant killing is just to awful to contemplate We cannot go down. We must not go down. We will not go down.

What Luke said. About the only sensible post on this thread,

To be honest, I have not been following all the machinations behind the scenes - just don't have the time. But over the last 2 or 3 years they have had and sold most of England's midfield with Young, Downing, Milner and Barry and basically replaced them with youngsters from what has always been a good youth set up. Randy Lerner seems to have not put the level of funds into the club that were expected and has appointed a manager who adopts a playing style which is not popular with the fans. I am not a fan of McLeish but to fair to him, he's not had a lot to work with. Blame has to lie with Lerner and Board.

You're wrong I'm afraid, If Dunfermline win all 3 games they will have one point more than we currently have. If Hibs lose to Dunfermline and win their other 2 games they will have one more point than we currently have. If we lose our remaining 3 games we will still have the same amount of points as we currently have. That is the only combination that will see us down barring some freakish scorelines to change the goal difference. If my bum is squeeking it is not because of ICT's plight, it is because of the plight of my English team - Villa. Having taken Birmingham from mid season safety to relegation last season, McLeish seems determined to do the same for Villa this season.

Great to see these clips. It is good to see the clips of Ian Stewart showing what a class act he was. His chip against County may not be spectacular but the skill level to do that is unreal. Wonderful also to see the typical uninhibited enthusiasm of Pele in the post match interview.

Maybe we should hope he doesn't

Si, oui, ja, ndiyo. I don't care where the players come from. I care about how good they are. I agree that it would be great to have more local youngsters in the team and I have posted on other threads about how important it is to have a good youth system, but they should only be in the team if they are good enough. If you want ICT to succeed at a high level you have to accept that we need to get the best players we can. If you feel you only want to watch a club that has local or perhaps scottish players then I suggest you go watch Clach instead. Some would argue that with free movemment within the EU these days, none of the squad are foreign. It is just that some are more local than others.

Fer f*cks sake Terry. Why didn't you tell me you were only joking.??I've just signed for the gudgies!

Seeing as it was Doofer who started this topic and he obviously feels so strongly about it, I thought I ought to find out what he was on about as I've been a bit out of touch with the news recently. I'll perhaps be a bit controversial here but I think Evans has a strong case for appeal and it would not surprise me to see him get acquited in due course. For those who don't know, the story goes like this. (Children and those easily offended should stop reading now!) Evans and friends of his, including another footballer, Clayton McDonald, booked a hotel room and went out seperately looking for a girl to take back there. They were not together at the time when a very drunk young woman literally fell out of a kebab shop into McDonald's path. McDonald seized the opportunity and took the 19 year old back to the hotel. He texted Evans to say he had "got a girl". McDonald then had sex with the girl whilst 2 other men watched and videoed the events through the window! Evans then arrived and claims he asked the girl if he could join in. He says she consented and McDonald backs that up. The girl says she can't remember what happened. McDonald then left and when he had finished with the girl, Evans left the room and then left the hotel by the fire escape. The girl awoke in the morning to find herself naked in the bed and with little recollection of what had happened during the evening. She was distraught and made her way to friends who encouraged her to go to the police. Both Evans and McDonald were charged with rape. McDonald's verdict was announced first and he was acquited. Evans shared his friend's jubilation at the verdict but then was shocked to hear his own verdict of guilty and the judges sentencing of 5 years prison. Now, Evans is clearly a nasty peice of work and his behaviour on the night in question was dreadful, however, that does not stop us having some concerns about the conviction and sentence. Remember, that we live in a country where to be convicted the prosecution needs to prove a case "beyond reasonable doubt". There is no room in a legal decision to moralise about someone's behaviour. Let's look at some facts here. The girl could not remember whether she consented or not. The girl was not physically harmed. There was no witness to suggest that the girl did not willingly go to the hotel with McDonald. Whilst she was clearly drunk, there is no suggestion that she was too drunk to speak or otherwise indicate that she did not consent to sex. In sentencing Evans, the judge said that he should have been aware that the girl was too drunk to give consent. In other words he is saying that even though she may well have told Evans that it was OK for him to have sex with her, that does not actually constitute consent. And if there was not valid consent, then it must be considered as rape. The judge may have considered Evans should have been aware that she was too drunk: but was he? Whilst Evans' behaviour is totally reprehensible, I cannot see how the evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt that the sex was non-consensual. How many vodka and cokes does it take for "yes" to mean "no" regardless of how willing the person appears to be? Even if the judge is correct on the matter of law and Evans' actions were technically rape, there is no evidence to suggest that Evans had any intention to do anything without what he understood to be her consent. In that case, a sentence of 5 years seems harsh to me when you consider similar sentences are handed out to criminals who set out to rape and deliberately hurt and terrorise their victims. Many perpatrators of vicious pre-meditated assults which leave victims disabled and scarred for life get sentences less than 5 years. The bizarre thing here is that if Evans was guilty, then why was McDonald adjudged not to be? After all, he is the one who took advantage of the girl and helped her tottering back to the hotel. He, much more than Evans would have been aware of how drunk she was. A further twist here is that Evans is white and McDonald is coloured. Just to add a little more controversy I wonder what the equalities groups would be saying if it had been Evans who had picked up the girl and McDonald was the one who got 5 years? From a morality point of view you may think Evans got what he deserved - but have we got justice? By the way - liked the joke Bauhaus!

Absolutely agree that all should have moved on - but have they? All I'm saying is that it is not fair to slate the manager for not being there today if you don't know why he wasn't. I'll be first in the queue to criticise if it turns out he simply snubbed 2 of the greatest servants this club has ever had. Focus should be on those 2 and not on Butcher.

Does anyone actually know why TB was not there? He is clearly not Grant and Russell's favourite person and they may have expressed a wish that that he not be present. In any case, the focus of the day has to be on Grant and Russell and his presence would inevitably detract from that. Whoever initiated his absence I am sure it was agreed by all that it was for the best.

Stand back everyone, I'll handle this one. Ummm... He signed the absolute dross that aren't fit to pull on the shirt?? He's responsible for the tactics from which he attempts to get the best out of the crap he's signed? He absolutely will not, nor will he ever accept blame for his part in the worst season in recent memory? (To clarify, as harrowing as it was to be relegated, this season is much, much worse than that one.) Quite why you feel the need to defend the guilty party in all of this is bewildering. I was listening to TB's post match interview just now and was actually suprised by how often he said that he must take the blame. It was almost a season's worth of accepting the responsibility. He was also saying that whilst he takes responsibility he is pretty bewildered by the lack of cutting edge in the final third because he sees day in and day out in training what the players are capable of but they don't produce it on a match day. He made the point that in a lot of games we have had good possession but have lost games because we have not been able to create and take enough clear cut chances and because of errors at the back which have been punished. That is probably true but it is his responsibility to sort it. There appears to be the first public recognition of that but perhaps a lack of knowing how to. Personally I feel that many on here are being harsh on the players. In general they may be playing poorly but I don't think that means they are poor players. I would be more worried if we simply weren't getting the possession. To me the big thing that is lacking is confidence. At the moment all the players seem to be on edge and as a result they either snatch at opportunities or lack the confidence to shoot. And they are on edge at the back because they know if they make a mistake the lack of goals up front means it is likely to be an expensive one. Things seem dire at the moment but If we could just find that spark to bring back the confidence then the goals will come players would be less on edge and we would find the football flowed a bit more. The key questions for me are whether it is TB's management style and tactics that are contributing to the lack of confidence in the first place and is he capable of finding the spark that is needed?

We could still get relegated this season but I somehow can't see Dunfermline winning all their remaining games. I think Butcher did a great job a couple of seasons ago when we went on that run to win the SFL and then we had a pretty decent season last year on our return to the SPL equaling our best ever finish. That is a decent track record. This season has been very disappointing. There have been flashes of real potential and hope but these have quickly fizzled out and he does not seem to have any realistic plan to address the problems. We had real hope of a top 6 finish not so long ago and are probably safe now only because other teams have also been poor. Much of the blame for this poor performance must rest with Butcher. I can accept one poor season on the back of 2 good ones but next season must be better. The Board also has a responsibility here. I don't advocate interference by the Board but it is reasonable to expect them to see there are a few things that need addressing and to expect Butcher to explain to their satisfaction what he proposes to do about them. If we are clear at the bottom come mid November (and current form suggests that is very likely) then he should go. I appreciate that it will cost us to cut his contract short but a drop to the SFL will cost even more.

I neither watched or listened to the match so can't comment on the perfomance myself but it sounds pretty poor. I have been one of many who has expressed the view that some of this season's poor results and poor performances can be put down to the injuries we have had throughout the season. We still have Hogg and Shinnie out but that is only 2 long term. It seams that as players have come back and the injuries have eased we've got worse rather than better. Has Winnall got a "no play" clause in his loan deal? We're losing and the manager takes Hayes off and replaces him with Proctor! I actually have a lot of time for Proctor but when we need goals and you have a striker on the bench, why replace an attacker with a defender? I worry about the tactical nous of our manager at times. Perhaps that knock on the head all those years ago did more damage than was realised.

Please yourself who you watch next season but do us a favour and don't call youself a supporter. Supporters stick by their team through thick and thin

Language

So he's off to Birmingham City then!

Being an Olympic champion has a great ring to it. The point of being an Olympic champion is to demonstrate that you are the best in the world at your sport. There are millions of dedicated athletes in a wide range of sports - some popular and some less so - who train hard for years in the hope that one day they can mount that podium, have a medal put round their neck and have their national anthem played whilst they stand there proudly as Olympic Champion. The Olympics come round every 4 years and these athletes target their training to be able to deliver their best performance for the games. Everyone else is doing the same so if you win Olympic Gold you truly can say at that time, when it matters, you are the best in the world. But football! The World Cup is the Olympics of football and is the competition people aspire to win more than any other. The Olympic title proves nothing and is an irrelevance as far as football is concerned. Worse, awarding gold medals to those who have little hope of ever winning the World Cup devalues the honour of winning gold in other sports. A further problem is that football is such a popular sport that even with the top teams and top players not on show there is considerable media coverage. This means there is less coverage of other sports and that is a real shame. Many of these sports get little coverage at other times and to see them played at the highest level makes a nice change. I won't be watching the Olympic football and don't give a t*ss who is in team GB.

On a lighter note there is a story related to Winnie Ewing who was giving a talk at a North School soon after her historic by-election victory in Hamilton in 1967. A young pupil asked her what would happen after independence with people who had a house both in England and Scotland - would they be considered as English or Scottish? Poor Winnie was a little taken aback at the level of hilarity the question produced but replied that the people would have to decide themselves whether they want to be English or Scots citizens. More laughter. The school was Gordonstoun and the boy asking the question was Prince Andrew!

I really don't follow your logic here. Far from wanting to deny youngsters the opportunity to progress I want a reserve league because I think it is a better environment for them to progress. They will play in a competetive environment with and against more experienced professionals and as a result will learn more and be better prepared when their chance in the first team arrives. I accept that there is more chance of youngsters being released if we have a reserve league rather than an under 19 or under 20 league but in reality the ones being released will be those not good enough to be in the reserve team and they are hardly likely to ever make it to the first team. Better for them to be released and find their level and get a regular game than be kept on with false hope at a bigger club. In some cases they will blossom late and if so, the regular competetive football at a lower level will help in that. The problem with an under 19/20 league is that in order to have a big enough squad to ensure you can compete in the league you are forced to keep some youngsters on who are never going to be good enough. That is in nobodies interest. Whilst I would love to see local youngsters break through to the first team there is no room for sentimentality here. What is required is a mechanism to ensure that there are players in all positions who are capable of doing a job for the first team when required. I believe a competeive reserve league is the best way to acheive this. I come back then to the point that a reserve team can be what you want it to be and I would expect that most clubs, ICT included, would want that to include any local talent deemed promising enough to be potential first team material.

Don I'm not sure whether you genuinely misunderstand what I am saying or merely choose to do so. Just in case it's the former, the point I am making is that ICT and its fans have made a number of parallel and equally laudable efforts to raise cash for their club so it really does appear a little selective - churlish even at this highly successful time for them - to criticise Ross County's commendable enterprises whilst rightly supporting and endorsing ICT's. On your second point, I should perhaps simply echo John F Kennedy's famous 1963 quote of solidarity with Berlin when he visited the city during the height of the Cold War in 1963 and comment "Ich bin ein Staggie!" as a mark of appreciation of Ross County's achievement of SPL football for themselves and hence also of double representation and derbies for the Highlands. Charles, you are being far too objective and sensible. It is really quite unbecoming of a journalist This is a fans' forum where anything done by the local rivals is fair game for instant vilification whilst if we do the same thing it becomes an action worthy of endless praise. Don't take it too seriously.

Last time I paid £20 to ICT I didn't get anything for my money either.

Couldn't they have paid to use another ground somewhere in between? Say Dingwall? I understand the owners there are trying to raise a few pennies.

cricket