DoofersDad

To be fair, I don't think there is a lot they can realistically do. It's not their fault the game in Scotland is going down the tubes. The problem lies with the way the world-wide game is marketed with the game increasingly structured and financed to cater to a global TV audience. The masses watch football from their arm chairs and not the terraces and they want to watch the big name players rather than their home town team. It becomes a self perpetuating circus. They have changed the big european club competitions from straightforward knock-out competitions to mini leagues and a shorter knock out stage in order to ensure the best chance and the most games for the biggest teams. Should one of them slip up against a less glamorous side that happens to have gate crashed the party the league gives them a second chance to let the big boys win. Worse still, several teams that then fail to progress in the champions league are given places in the Europa league. The 2 Manchester sides for instance, fail miserably in the champions league and are now earning further mega millions in the Europa league as a reward for their failure. To play the number of games these top clubs play, they have to have big squads of top players and television and sponsorship money means they can pay these players stupid sums of money. Some of these players hardly ever play but are there when needed. Unless a club receives massive investment there is no way teams can ever aspire to reach the top - the gap is too wide and the promising players and managers are plucked away with offers they can't refuse. A few years ago a talented manager at an average club could bring together talented players, keep then together for a few years develop a brilliant team and acheive great things - Brian Clough at Nottingham Forrest being number 1 in my list on that score. The dream that your club might just do that sort of thing is part of what draws people to support their local clubs, but as the market and financing of football has changed, that sort of team progression no longer happens. Get a couple of years out of a good player and they are off where the grass is greener. Clubs like us and the Pars get squeezed. We have to pay players more than we can really afford in order to keep the standard to a level the fans want to see. But we also need to keep ticket prices at a level which allows us to pay the wages. The problem is that increasingly the fans are voting with their feet and saying the ticket price is too much for the standard of football on offer. It's a grim thought, but from a business angle one might now consider that winning the league title is simply an unattainble goal. You have to buy success these days because market forces (and the Bosman ruling) break up teams that could develop together and progress to success. There has never been more money in the game, but it's all in the wrong hands. A cap on player wages and agreements that a much larger proportion of the television monies is shared throughout the game is required. I can't see that happening and I can't see that the SFA can do much about it either.

It's not the win bonuses that's got them into difficulty, that's for sure. It's a sign of the times and a lot of clubs are going to be struggling in the next year or two. Teams will not have the money to attract and hold on to half decent players, standards will drop, crowds will drop, finances will get even worse and so the downward spiral continues.

New on the BBC website. Knock on effect of the Rangers debt. http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/17210537

I was thinking along similar lines but not because I think he was as bad a Mahonio does, but because I thought he was just the normal standard of referee we see and therefore poor. I wondered therefore whether to tick the average or poor box as he was both. I wonder, Scotty, if "average" in the poll could be changed to something nuetral such as "Acceptable" or "OK"? Given that most of the refereeing we see is of such a poor standard "average" in this context actually means poor.

Barry Wilson for Elgin V Clyde. At the age of 40! Well done Barry.

Going round in circles a wee bit here. I'll make 2 points. Firstly, whilst we were defensively poor on Sunday (but well done, Proctor!) I think the rubbishing of our side is generally unfair on the team. Those few of us who actually bothered to stay to the end will have seen how hard the team tried to turn 4-1 into 4-2. They never gave up. Rubbishing our team's effort is also actually rather disrespectful for a Rangers side who played very well indeed. These were players whose future is in the balance through no fault of their own, they were hurt by the defeat to Kilmarnock and they were very much up for it. They were playing for their contracts and did themselves great credit. No shame in losing to that Rangers side. I don't think there is a particular problem with the defence if we can keep the players we have and keep them fit. Sunday was a one-off. As I said before in this thread, between the 2 Rangers' games we conceded just 4 goals in 7 games including a trip to Parkhead to play a rampant Celtic side. That's top 3 level defending and achieved with a range of personnel. I think that is quite impressive and shows not only have we players of appropriate quality but we have good cover as well. The disappointing thing recently is that we have drawn with teams we should be beating and that's because the goals have dried up with Andrew Shinnie injured. Tade, Sutherland and MacKay have not been scoring and despite bringing Winnall in, Terry doesn't give him an opportunity. Of course, it is goals the fans want to see and if we had converted recent draws into wins then we would be well placed for top six and very few would be complaining. So can we please stop moaning about the defence and start moaning about the strikers instead

Well done Graeme. Could you please have a word with Jordon Rhodes about the joys of playing in the Highland Capital?

Some interesting thoughts on here. There may be differences about where we think we ought to be and how well we are actually doing but there does seem to some general agreement that we could and probably should be doing better. Notwithstanding the disruption to team selection that injuries have caused the level of performance does seem to be very inconsistent. But I would like to respond on a couple of points. The first is regarding some of the so called "pish" that Terry has brought in. That doesn't bother me in the slightest. The financial position of the club forces him to bring in players who are basically off the radar of others and who are hardly setting the world on fire in whichever lowly club he gets them from. Some, like Stratford or Aldred don't make the grade but some, like Jonny Hayes most definately do. Players can look promising based on what you see or hear of them in a different setting but until they arrive and become part of the set up at ICT and get used to the Scottish game you have no real idea whether they will blossom or not. I think enough of his signings have proven their worth to make the policy justified. And remember there is still a good crop of young local lads on the books who have every chance to prosper if they are good enough. The second is on the question of what it is we want from the club. Some are clearly unhappy about the quality of football on display even though we are competing well in the top league in Scottish football. Some have said previously they would rather watch a more attractive brand of football even if that meant we played at a lower level. That's maybe a valid point but not one I agree with. I want the club to win at the highest level for two reasons. Firstly because at the end of the day it is those successes that one remembers and treasures, but also because I honestly believe that on balance, regardles of the style of football played, the more successful the club is the better the quality of football is and the more enjoyable it is. I'm sorry, but if people thought we played "pish" in finishing 7th last season then they failed to appreciate an awful lot of good football. Realistically with the wages we can afford there will always be a significant element of "pish" in the mix or esle the players would be signed by Celtic and the like. Just accept that there will always be some "pish" and enjoy the good stuff that is on offer as well.

How many times is Butcher going to trot out that line? Why do paid professionals need punishing like this in the hope of producing a professional display? If motivation is an issue, then it's simple, don't pick those who can't be arsed or won't play to their potential. Tansey for me looked the worst offender in this department yesterday. Ultimately the question has to be asked, why are they not motivated? Ah! We agree on something! 100% agree with you on this.

*Short post containing not a single fact or argument to support the depressing negativity In his earlier post Jay 7 says "As things stand, it's going to be a very long, long time before I ever pay to get back into that stadium again." How is the club supposed to get where you want it to be (however unrealistic that may be) if nobody goes along and gives support to the club when it needs it?

I think it's officially something snappy like "converted kicks from the penalty mark". If they were classified as goals, Liverpool would have won the match 5 - 4 yesterday.

Much as it pains me to mention this, a certain Andy Barrowman played in the Scottish Cup final after leaving us. He was also joined by Iain Vigurs and Garry Wood.

Those players and others associated closely with the club who read this site must wonder why they bother - maybe they won't bother in future and who could blame them. Yesterday we were outclassed by a very motivated Rangers team who played very well on the day, but this seems to have spawned a constant stream of completely OOT negativity. You can't judge a team or a manager on a single performance so let's look at a few facts. People are concerned we might still be relegated. We are 8 points clear of Dunfermline with 2 games in hand. If Dunfermline accumulate points for the rest of the season at their average for the season so far, they will end the season 2 points behind what we already have. We are not going to be relegated. People say our current form is poor. Since Rangers defeated us at Ibrox in December only Celtic have beaten us until Rangers beat us again yesterday. Looking at the longer term picture, we have not lost to another bottom 6 club since we lost 2-1 to Aberdeen on August 20th. People say the defence is poor. In the 7 games between the 2 defeats to Rangers we conceded ony 4 goals. We have been particularly hard hit with injuries this season. We must all understand how hard that makes it to field a consistent side and we all know that you need a consistent team to get the best out the players. It has also meant that for much of our season we have been without players we would regard as first cloice. People say this season's pish is a continuation of last season's pish. Memories are short. Last season we equaled the best ever finish by a Highland side in the history of Scottish football when we finished 7th - 9 points clear of the 8th placed team. Looking at the broader picture this is all pretty impressive. I might not always agree with what Terry does and to be honest some of it baffles me, but at the end of the day you can't argue with the overall record of acheivement. We are a small club with limited finances and to be in the SPL at all is good, Yes we can hope for a top 6 finish and / or european football but to acheive that will require a number of things to come right at the same time. We will hopefully savour it when it comes but we have no right to expect it. Just staying in the bottom 6 of the SPL is hard enough and to acheive that, the players, the manager, the club need the support of the fans. It is reasonable to express opinions which are critical from time to time but this constant tirade of negativity is not support. Typical of the nonsense is the comment in a post above which states "During last season, I regularly pointed out that our defence was no where near good enough for this level. A remark which, whenever I brought it up, was equally as regularly told that I was being too harsh and I expected too much of the team." It is astonishing that the poster repeats this nonsense a year later in the knowledge that his assertion was emphatically disproved by the fact that we equalled our best ever finish last season. It really is beyond pathetic. Just what do some people expect? If you want your local team to play breathtaking, silky, attacking football week in and week out then I suggest you move to Barcelona. As for me, I'm proud of my local club, of what it has acheived and what it still is acheiving in very difficult circumstances. I'm not suggesting everything in the garden is rosy; the lack of goals in recent games is a concern, for instance, but the bigger position is good. Exchange of views and opinions is healthy but please, can we have that debate against a background of realistic expectations for our club, realistic understanding of what we have acheived and realistic understanding of what we are currently acheiving. This is a supporters' forum. Come on folk, let's get behind the guys and show some real support.

Are we talking about worst or biggest here? It might be the biggest defeat but it was not the worst. We've played worse and won. Of course, if you are talking about the worst performances in losing there will be large numbers of people who would not be able to make an objective comment on that because when we are losing they b*gger off home before the end. Today was a case in point. I know I was coughing and spluttering a bit at the match but to see the way the seats emptied all around me you would have thought I had bird flu. Those that left early will have missed a superb bit of skill from Jonny which very nearly led to what would have been a great goal. Just be grateful you're not a Spurs fan today!

I would accept that we are not playing particularly attractive football and we got well beaten today. But in the recent form league (last 6 matches) we are 6th. If, after 6 matches at the start of the season we were lying 6th having played and lost to both Rangers and Celtic I think we would be pretty exited at the prospects for the rest of the season. Whilst I am critical of the manager today, I think his outburst at the players is because he knows we actually are good enough for a top 6 finish and the facts bear that out. Given all the injuries we have had and the inconsistency this has forced on starting line ups, a top 6 finish would be an absolutely wonderful acheivement. Crisis? What crisis? Dougal, you have made some half decent post in recent weeks. Your contribution above is not one of them.

FFS, we lost to Rangers - not Dunfermline. Reading this thread it's like the end of the world is nigh and the R word is being used again. Had we won today it would all be about top 6 and even Europe and Terry would be a God. Several players did not play well and tactically we were very poor - but this is just one game. We are 8 points ahead of the pars with 2 games in hand. Get a grip, folk!

Whilst we are all obviously disappointed I think folk on here are being overly harsh and TB, as sadly is often the case, is heaping the blame elsewhere when his own tactical failings were a significant factor. McCoist had clearly out thought him tactically and the players he brought in did very well. Terry's game plan seemed to be that the longer we could hold out against a Rangers side with fairly limited fire power, the more they would push forward and the more chance our hoofball would work. This is a tried and only occasionally successful tactic and it is not good to watch. It could have worked but it was blown apart after 20 minutes due to a combination of woeful defending from Meekings and the composure of Rangers front line to create and take their chances. I personally wouldn't criticise the players for effort with the exception of Meekings and Tansey. I thought the rest were all up for it and challenged and harrassed Rangers pretty well. The problem was what they did when they got the ball. The only tactic seemed to either get it wide to Jonny (who was poor in the first half and a lot better in the second) or just hoof it for Tade and MacKay. I thought Tansey was very poor today, Foran was just OK, and Nick Ross seemed to offer a little more potential but Rangers defenders read him very well. Both McKay and Tade huffed and puffed to little effect. McKay had a good first touch but had no options. Tade looked more sluggish than I've seen him - perhaps his achilles tendon is still asleep. Terry was right to replace Meekings with Proctor. Meekings had a nightmare of a game and I think Proc did OK when he came on and better than Tokely would have done at right back. Having gone three behind and then pulled one back we looked for a time as though a second could very easily come. Had we got a second then we would have had a very nervy Rangers side and it would have been game on. I was therefore suprised when he withdrew Ross and astonished when Gnapka appeared. Immediately there was confusion about who should be where and immediately Rangers exploited the space and were up the park to score. Instead of being game on it was game over. And then to bring OTJ on right at the end! What was that about? The game was crying out for a bit of quality in midfield and that is just what he can offer. With Tansey being so poor, he could have replaced him at half time. If he is fit enough, he should be starting and if he isn't he should come on for a reasonable stint - but just the last 3 minutes? Baffling. Yes, Rangers were the better side but I don't think it was a fair reflection of the game. I do think it was a fair reflection of the nouce of the two managers though. And remember, Rangers will have been hurting after the Kilmarnock match and players are playing for their contract. There is no way they were not going to be 100% up for this. Some people seem to think Rangers were there for the taking but that was never going to be the case. As I say, I cannot fault the effort of the players. Rather than bring them all in for more running around I think Terry should let them keep their day off so that he can study the videos of the game and learn where he got it wrong.

What! Elton John's gay? :aghast:

Given the same turnaround that we had over Dundee any team in that division could overtake County but I think they will just hang in there. Today was a good day for them - OK, Falkirk are level on points now but to avoid defeat at Dundee is a big result and they will be happy heading North tonight. Nobody else other than Falkirk is really looking as though they can go on a run and to be honest I think the more experienced players County have got are more likely to hold their nerve. My prediction is that Falkirk will overhaul them only to blow it in the last 2 or 3 games. Elgin have won their last 4 games now so might also gain promotion. Whatever past and present local rivalries might be, having 2 North clubs being promoted in the same season must be good for football in the area. ICT having their highest ever finish in the top flight would be even better.

Maybe the players are paying their own bills. They can afford it on the wages they get.

Someone pointed out to me today that if you put the top four in the SPL in reverse order the first letters spell HMRC. And Rangers are caught in the middle. There is no escape!

Elton John - Furnish

As Mr Yngwie's legal advisor I would just like to point out for the avoidance of any doubt or misunderstanding that Mr Yngwie's comment quoted above is a reference to Mr Hart's fondness for coffee. Mr Hart particularly favours rich roast Colombian coffee - indeed that is why he is known as "Richie". As an aside, it might interest you to know that rich roast Colombian ground coffee is on a "buy one get one free" offer at Tesco at the moment - a snorting good deal if you ask me.

Life is rarely simple. Anyone out there got a mortgage? We all spend money we haven't got and it is leant to us on the expectation we will be able to pay it back with interest. But if house prices fall and I slip into negative equity and then I lose my job and am no longer able to repay my loan even by selling my home, does that make me a criminal? No. It makes me unlucky. Most businesses rely on borrowing to fund them to maintain cash flow whilst the value of the business is tied up in the assets; and a football club is no different. The question is, at what point does the borrowing or buying assets on credit become unreasonable? In Rangers case it was probably quite a long time ago but it is almost imposible for the casual observer to come to any sensible opinion. It is all too complicated and murky. We just have to hope that the processes going on at the moment allow the taxpayer to recoup what is owed and that if the law has been broken, those responsible are brought to justice. We don't want cheating on or off the field.

That's shocking. It was wet a few weeks ago but the last couple of weeks have been pretty dry. A bit of rain today but nothing too bad. There is more serious rain forecast for tomorrow and perhaps later in the week. There is no way that if their pitch was unplayable 30 minutes before kick off it was playable earlier in the day. The only thing I can think off is that it must be everyone at Victoria Park collectively peeing themselves at the thought of County blowing it again.