If we have failed to switch on the USH 4 or 5 days ago because of cost it raises the question og where our cash has gone? This weather isn't unique, every forecast has been predicting it all week and it has been colder this week with frost since Tuesday!

We have more season ticket holders than ever before - hence more readily available cash flow.

We received a large 'parachute' payment, circa ?250,000

We got cash ?20,000 or even ?40,000 for Imrie

We got rid of Smith who must have been on a big salary

We got rid of other staff members

The players surely aren't earning as much

So how can we not afford a couple of thousand quid to get one of the most important games on when we are riding high and it was a beautiful day?

Here's a question about money, that I was thinking about recently. Does anyone else recollect hearing that when Niculae was away at the Euros, it was reported that ICT would receive something like ?50,000 a day, that he would be away. What happened to that money? Do ICT still have that money? Where is the money now?

I think it was more like ?50,000 in total, not per day. All been spent on Barrowman's wages.

Yes it was a total payment, just under 50k Euro's, I would imagine its gone on lawyer fees

This threadis a prime example of the BIGGEST issue that exists with ICT at the moment....communication between club and fans.

The club have been caught out or shown to have been very economical with the truth on so many occasions over the past few years that it's little wonder that people are in the habit of questioning and doubting everything that they do and say....what's more, they tend to go looking for information from other sources as we either get none from the club, they are very slow to communicate or the little info we do get is so heavily spun it only assists in raising more questions.

Even those who have been in the position to get information straight from the horses mouth have been made to look stupid on more than a few occasions because they've gone to bat for the club on an issue believing what they have been told and then finding that they perhaps weren't given the whole story.

You'll get no argument from me that forums such as CTO are an ideal breeding ground for conspiracy and Chinese whispers....but it doesn't have to be like that and if the club would just get back to the way things were 6 or 7 years ago when they did pro-actively talk TO fans then more of the talk on the forum would be about the game as opposed to those running the game. We'd still have issues, but it's better to be informed on those issues as opposed to not knowing what on earth is going on and wasting our time fighting for answers instead of doing what we would all rather be doing and diverting energy to finding and helping with solutions.

Fans may not be the biggest financial contributor to clubs in this day and age, but they are still the most valuable resource any club has (they are the club) and ICT need to learn, and learn fast, how to embrace and fully utilise that resource.

Seeing as I started this thread I may as well try and end it.

Thanks to all for contributing, I learned more about finances of the club and under soil heating than I would have from any club spokesperson!

For example I didn't realise that we were still paying the players SPL circa wages. Surely we will learn from that and have a clause in place for the future that if we get dumped down a division then wages also go down. It's up to the players to earn higher wages by keeping the club in a higher league. Bit like the Bank employees getting their performance bonuses, uuuuuurrrrrghhhhhh.

I agree totally that we have one of the best if not the best groundsman in the Country, he does a terrific job and I bet he doesn't get paid well enough.

Great point made that as QOS and their fans were here or almost here we could, with their agreement, surely have held fire on the decision for an additional hour or so. I see Gordon Chisholm in press today saying that he heard 'that the players believed on Friday night that there was no chance of the game going ahead'. Wonder who they heard that from? No EWS this is not a conspiracy statement just a question!

Anyway we are still very much in the mix and I look forward to welcoming some of the these soft southern teams up here on a cold wet windy miserable night in March. Bring it on.

Seeing as I started this thread I may as well try and end it.

Thanks to all for contributing, I learned more about finances of the club and under soil heating than I would have from any club spokesperson!

For example I didn't realise that we were still paying the players SPL circa wages. Surely we will learn from that and have a clause in place for the future that if we get dumped down a division then wages also go down. It's up to the players to earn higher wages by keeping the club in a higher league. Bit like the Bank employees getting their performance bonuses, uuuuuurrrrrghhhhhh.

I agree totally that we have one of the best if not the best groundsman in the Country, he does a terrific job and I bet he doesn't get paid well enough.

Great point made that as QOS and their fans were here or almost here we could, with their agreement, surely have held fire on the decision for an additional hour or so. I see Gordon Chisholm in press today saying that he heard 'that the players believed on Friday night that there was no chance of the game going ahead'. Wonder who they heard that from? No EWS this is not a conspiracy statement just a question!

Anyway we are still very much in the mix and I look forward to welcoming some of the these soft southern teams up here on a cold wet windy miserable night in March. Bring it on.

Just becasue someone replied saying that doesn't make it true. There is no way the players are all on the same pay as they were in the SPL. There would have been relegatin clauses in the contracts and I'm sure almost every player has suffered a wage reduction.

Joe, I like your optimism, but I'm afraid I believe that there were only 1 or maybe 2 players who had a relegation clause and therefore a pay cut. More than that got a pay rise in line with their SPL contracts.

I don't believe ICT considered relegation an option. The players with relegation clauses were the ones who signed during the last half of last season when it was looking like a possibility

Just becasue someone replied saying that doesn't make it true. There is no way the players are all on the same pay as they were in the SPL. There would have been relegatin clauses in the contracts and I'm sure almost every player has suffered a wage reduction.

This is coming from a club that as it stands, cant even negotiate a standard contract with an International player and are just now trailing it through the courts so i doubt there are enough braincells between all the board members to say" hey if we go down, shouldnt we have some sort of clause in the players' contracts that reduces their wages?". unless the board come out and say that there are clauses in these contracts then we can assume for the time being that there isnt any.

If we are using "standard SPL contracts" as has been trotted out regarding Mr Niculae, then I find it strange to think that the SPL would not include a relegation clause in that standard contract as one of their members should succumb to that fate every season.

Having said that, with regards to wages, and I will concede that I have no clue on the actual numbers, but are we really paying considerably more now than we were previously?

We have always been touted as the team that paid the smallest wages in the SPL and even in the 1st last time round we just sat on or about the "average". I know there are probably notable exceptions to this rule - Niculae was paid a bit more (but not as excessively as we were led to believe by some) and Barrowman was picking up what could be termed a ridiculous wage in respect to his contribution to the cause - but most are now gone. I cant really see Rossco, Granty or others picking up a huge wage?

If we are using "standard SPL contracts" as has been trotted out regarding Mr Niculae, then I find it strange to think that the SPL would not include a relegation clause in that standard contract as one of their members should succumb to that fate every season.

Having said that, with regards to wages, and I will concede that I have no clue on the actual numbers, but are we really paying considerably more now than we were previously?

We have always been touted as the team that paid the smallest wages in the SPL and even in the 1st last time round we just sat on or about the "average". I know there are probably notable exceptions to this rule - Niculae was paid a bit more (but not as excessively as we were led to believe by some) and Barrowman was picking up what could be termed a ridiculous wage in respect to his contribution to the cause - but most are now gone. I cant really see Rossco, Granty or others picking up a huge wage?

yes but the income stream from the SPL would have cushioned any blow we had on wages, now in the 1st we are feeling the full effect of 6 months of paying Barrowman & Imrie on SPL wages and no TV income nor big money attendances.

Oh and do Rangers & Celtic have relegation clauses in their contracts aswell? :021:

Oh and do Rangers & Celtic have relegation clauses in their contracts aswell? :P

Yes, the clause states that they won't ever, ever(1) get relegated.(2)

(1) ever!

(2) subject to hell no freezing over

Joe, I like your optimism, but I'm afraid I believe that there were only 1 or maybe 2 players who had a relegation clause and therefore a pay cut. More than that got a pay rise in line with their SPL contracts.

I don't believe ICT considered relegation an option. The players with relegation clauses were the ones who signed during the last half of last season when it was looking like a possibility

Is that a fact LG?

If so, that is a ridiculous decision by the club. We were in a relegation fight every season we spent in the the SPL and I find it hard to believe the board wouldn't have taken this into consideration.

Basically we cannot afford to run something that (a) might not work in the weather conditions being forecasted and ( :P will greatly reduce the income from a game against let's face it a team who will bring up maybe 200 fans tops.

So knowing the forecast was well below freezing why waste money on switching it on in the 1st place.

Oh and do Rangers & Celtic have relegation clauses in their contracts aswell? :P

Yes, the clause states that they won't ever, ever(1) get relegated.(2)

(1) ever!

(2) subject to hell no freezing over

Concerning the OF i dont know if thats fact or a joke? :P

Joe, I like your optimism, but I'm afraid I believe that there were only 1 or maybe 2 players who had a relegation clause and therefore a pay cut. More than that got a pay rise in line with their SPL contracts.

I don't believe ICT considered relegation an option. The players with relegation clauses were the ones who signed during the last half of last season when it was looking like a possibility

Is that a fact LG?

If so, that is a ridiculous decision by the club. We were in a relegation fight every season we spent in the the SPL and I find it hard to believe the board wouldn't have taken this into consideration.

I couldn't produce the paperwork, but it is certainly a widely held belief that this is/was the case.

Joe, I like your optimism, but I'm afraid I believe that there were only 1 or maybe 2 players who had a relegation clause and therefore a pay cut. More than that got a pay rise in line with their SPL contracts.

I don't believe ICT considered relegation an option. The players with relegation clauses were the ones who signed during the last half of last season when it was looking like a possibility

Is that a fact LG?

If so, that is a ridiculous decision by the club. We were in a relegation fight every season we spent in the the SPL and I find it hard to believe the board wouldn't have taken this into consideration.

I couldn't produce the paperwork, but it is certainly a widely held belief that this is/was the case.

I'd prefer to base an opinion on facts instead of informed sources, as reliable as they may be, but if this is true it is the biggest example to date of how niave our board of directors are. I'm all for the club showing ambition but neglecting the possibility of relegation is an incredible oversight. I don't know who is providing legal advice to the club but based on this (if true) and the Niculae saga they really need to consider different options.

Joe, I like your optimism, but I'm afraid I believe that there were only 1 or maybe 2 players who had a relegation clause and therefore a pay cut. More than that got a pay rise in line with their SPL contracts.

I don't believe ICT considered relegation an option. The players with relegation clauses were the ones who signed during the last half of last season when it was looking like a possibility

All this is coming from people 'beleiving' this or that or they have heard this or that. I really cant see a club like ICT no having relegation clauses in their players contracts, you would expect it to be a given.

Also I was told what Barrowman was on in the SPL and what he was on in the first division so it would seem his wage was reduced and he wasn't a player signed in the last half of the season. I know this is also something I was told and not hard fact but it was one of the players who said this so I wouldnt expect it to be rumour.

But again everyone has this information from word of mouth or a 'belief' that there was no clauses and no one knows for fact so I don't think we can really asume they are all on the same wage as last season and it is almost 'beyond belief' that a club like ICT wouldnt have relegation clauses.

As I understand it, even when we were in the SPL, we were not paying SPL wages! How many other clubs fielded first team regulars on ?350 a week? Obviously this excludes Marius.

Would also be prepared to take a wager (small one mind :024: ) that there are at least four teams in our division one with a significantly higher wage bill than ours.

For me, our problem is not our wage bill but the dramatic fall in revenue from gates, corporate, TV etc we had in our SPL years.

It seems to me that we're missing the balance and stability that we had when we were in div1 previously.

If i remember correctly J.R. had all of the players in his squad on the same wages, no stars just a solid TEAM.

I don't know how much power and influence TB is given over player contracts, especially considering that he's only signed up until the end of the season himself. But as everybody is saying, we need to secure our players for next season and our management team as well. Whether that will be TB & MM or not.

We may have less or no money, but the club has to, within it's means, secure a team for next season. We were only promotion hopefuls last time around with a squad on the same or similar wages but we won the league.

If we do happen to win the league this season i can't see us having much of a successful survival battle next season. and with no long term plan in place we're not going anywhere but backwards..........

A certain County employee (after a few drinks and saying more than he should have apparently...) very recently told one of my colleagues that the ICT playing staff wage bill was THREE TIMES that of RC - and Dundee! So I'm a believer that the contracts didn't have relegation clauses. From what I have heard (I know I know, all hearsay) only one of the playing staff took a voluntary wage cut when we got relegated, hoping others would follow suit. Probably unsurprisingly, they didn't.

I really cant see a club like ICT no having relegation clauses in their players contracts, you would expect it to be a given.

I agree with you there. I reckon very few SPL clubs wouldn't have this clause ie Celtic. Rangers inserted it in all their players contracts whilst they were out 'Marching'. They will next install Ally McCoist as their manager to allow this relegation to take place and then finally have an affordable wage bill.

There is absolutely no way our board would not have prepared for relegation

If we do happen to win the league this season i can't see us having much of a successful survival battle next season. and with no long term plan in place we're not going anywhere but backwards..........

We will win the league. Believe.

I believe.

It seems to me that we're missing the balance and stability that we had when we were in div1 previously.

If i remember correctly J.R. had all of the players in his squad on the same wages, no stars just a solid TEAM.

I don't know how much power and influence TB is given over player contracts, especially considering that he's only signed up until the end of the season himself. But as everybody is saying, we need to secure our players for next season and our management team as well. Whether that will be TB & MM or not.

We may have less or no money, but the club has to, within it's means, secure a team for next season. We were only promotion hopefuls last time around with a squad on the same or similar wages but we won the league.

If we do happen to win the league this season i can't see us having much of a successful survival battle next season. and with no long term plan in place we're not going anywhere but backwards..........

I think that Robbo introduced a clear wage structure for everyone. Not necessarily everyone on the same wage, but all working within a clear structure depending on experience etc

I'm glad we have reduced the wage bill by Barrowman and Imrie leaving as they were the highest earners and I believe both received a wage increase in line with relegation as it was written into their contracts that they would receive a pay rise each year. I'm sure we don't have a higher wage bill that last season as we did release some players at the start of the season, but it also hasn't been significantly reduced either.

As you say, we survived years with "no stars, but just a solid Team". It was an excellent team who went to Parkhead and beat Celtic (I think most could still do a job for us), but most of all they were a team. Something I think we have been lacking this season. I do think that they are beginning to gel now and that we should offer contracts to Terry & Maurice right now.

The same way as it should have worked with relegation can surely work in reverse with a package agreed on a 1st division budget with an enhancement if we were to be promoted. This would get players signed up and act as an added incentive to win the league. I am very concerned that the end of the season is only a few weeks away and we have no management team and only 3 first team players signed.

I don't think anyone could, or should be offered anything until we know what division we will be in next season.

As for TB and MM would you really want them to stay on if we don't win promotion?

Would they want to stay on if we don't win promotion?

Having now thought about the players that left in the summer, im beginning to wonder as to whether Garry Wood, Iain Vigurs etc actually had relegation release clauses in their contracts. Obviously if the club went down they couldnt support an Under 19's team and maybe these guys fell into that catergory in that situation. Surely if we stayed up then they would still be here no?

I don't think anyone could, or should be offered anything until we know what division we will be in next season.

As for TB and MM would you really want them to stay on if we don't win promotion?

Would they want to stay on if we don't win promotion?

I wouldn't want Butcher staying if he was still on (allegedly) ?100,000 a year.

Having now thought about the players that left in the summer, im beginning to wonder as to whether Garry Wood, Iain Vigurs etc actually had relegation release clauses in their contracts. Obviously if the club went down they couldnt support an Under 19's team and maybe these guys fell into that catergory in that situation. Surely if we stayed up then they would still be here no?

Not necessarily, Butcher didn't seem to rate either of them.