So, I would like to bring up a helping solution/topic of discussion for ict, maybe you think it's crazy, maybe not, maybe it's not even a possibility.  I know nothing about generation of fan financial assistance, but can a fan base for a club offer support on a lump sum assisstance basis. Speaking out loud, how many fans would generate say a grand each into the kitty.

2 hours ago, Northern_jaggie said:

I wouldn't trust fans donating £200k to the club given the state of decline and management.

If I did donate it would be good to address:

An ineffective youth system

Relying on journeyman footballers 

The puddle in the pie queue

The embarrassing portakabin shop 

The embarrassing scaffold towers

A review of hospitality

More pleasant shop staff

Better parking

Community facilities to generate revenue, such as a pay to play Astro, indoor recreational area, restaurant or accommodation 

Better transport links to the stadium 

Paint for the orange stadium stanchions 

Automated turnstiles to save on staff costs and make entry easier

Better pre match entertainment

If we knew exactly what we were getting in something tangible then it would probably help greatly. 

 

 

 

Lots of great ideas that would require loads of capital to get going though. Well maybe not the puddle thing.

Out of interest what do you feel is poor about hospitality? I've never had anything but a fantastic experience.

Have you been to County for hospitality before?

On the hotel/bar idea; if it is £80k per medium scale 25m2 hotel room we could have a 20 bedroom hotel and appealing bar facility for circa £1.6m. If 20 rooms were filled 300 days of the year that's around £0.5m per year and a three to four year simple payback. Be more ambitious - Killies investors raised £6.4m Finance raised through community share offer and loans. I've not guessed the IRR/NPV of this but it would be pretty decent, especially if we own enough land to do it and the term is 10 years. Now don't read too much into these figures but the club could at least draw up a brief and tender the costs, and gauge public finance/loan possibilities.

Finance is possible to get hold of if you have a robust business case demonstrating a low risk investment opportunity to the banks.

What I am saying is that no one at the club seems to have the ability to investigate these types of avenues. Obviously the facility would look to offset matters on the park with its profits to improve the overall club generally. 

Look at how the Park Hotel helped balance the books at Kilmarnock?? They CLEARLY have a more competent board and management framework.

The club in my opinion needs to have a working group set up to charter the business direction and look at all of the clubs in the SPFL and what they are doing right - Killie's hotel, Youth system, branding, match experience etc etc.

We need to keep being progressive because all I see is a club going backwards.

1 hour ago, Northern_jaggie said:

Have you been to County for hospitality before?

On the hotel/bar idea; if it is £80k per medium scale 25m2 hotel room we could have a 20 bedroom hotel and appealing bar facility for circa £1.6m. If 20 rooms were filled 300 days of the year that's around £0.5m per year and a three to four year simple payback. Be more ambitious - Killies investors raised £6.4m Finance raised through community share offer and loans. I've not guessed the IRR/NPV of this but it would be pretty decent, especially if we own enough land to do it and the term is 10 years. Now don't read too much into these figures but the club could at least draw up a brief and tender the costs, and gauge public finance/loan possibilities.

Finance is possible to get hold of if you have a robust business case demonstrating a low risk investment opportunity to the banks.

What I am saying is that no one at the club seems to have the ability to investigate these types of avenues. Obviously the facility would look to offset matters on the park with its profits to improve the overall club generally. 

Look at how the Park Hotel helped balance the books at Kilmarnock?? They CLEARLY have a more competent board and management framework.

The club in my opinion needs to have a working group set up to charter the business direction and look at all of the clubs in the SPFL and what they are doing right - Killie's hotel, Youth system, branding, match experience etc etc.

We need to keep being progressive because all I see is a club going backwards.

Very interesting business model. It still boils back to getting corporate businesses/fans/ict employees to become stakeholders and multiple looking term working groups being set up to achieve these goals. From what I have heard from the majority of other fans, food very mediocre for price. People will pay more lavishly for the experience. I am sure things will become more optimistic and positive soon, relative to county, revamp the fans sport lounge and make bigger and upgrade the shop to incorporate the wow factor in both cases. A hotel for away fans/business functions  on the reclaimed land near the stadium could be an adventurous long term corporate venture

Even better business model would be to pay players through an EBT scheme and avoid taxes - should give about 10 years of buying players we cant afford and artificially inflated levels of success. I'm sure it'd be possible to get away with it for a few years ;)

No I've never been to County hospitality and I likely never will, I wouldn't give them my money. I'm not asking about them though, I'm just wondering what you found wanting in our hospitality as that's never been my experience.

11 hours ago, Fraz said:

Lots of great ideas that would require loads of capital to get going though. Well maybe not the puddle thing.

Out of interest what do you feel is poor about hospitality? I've never had anything but a fantastic experience.

Would agree with that...even a wee monthly direct debit thing might be an idea. Wouldn't generate vast sums of money in the grand scheme of things but could make a tangible contribution towards something positive

2 hours ago, Elgin1 said:

Very interesting business model. It still boils back to getting corporate businesses/fans/ict employees to become stakeholders and multiple looking term working groups being set up to achieve these goals. From what I have heard from the majority of other fans, food very mediocre for price. People will pay more lavishly for the experience. I am sure things will become more optimistic and positive soon, relative to county, revamp the fans sport lounge and make bigger and upgrade the shop to incorporate the wow factor in both cases. A hotel for away fans/business functions  on the reclaimed land near the stadium could be an adventurous long term corporate venture

Nice idea but not sure people would like to stay at a hotel next to an industrial estate & a dual carriageway..worth exploring though.

13 hours ago, Northern_jaggie said:

I wouldn't trust fans donating £200k to the club given the state of decline and management.

If I did donate it would be good to address:

An ineffective youth system

Relying on journeyman footballers 

The puddle in the pie queue

The embarrassing portakabin shop 

The embarrassing scaffold towers

A review of hospitality

More pleasant shop staff

Better parking

Community facilities to generate revenue, such as a pay to play Astro, indoor recreational area, restaurant or accommodation 

Better transport links to the stadium 

Paint for the orange stadium stanchions 

Automated turnstiles to save on staff costs and make entry easier

Better pre match entertainment

If we knew exactly what we were getting in something tangible then it would probably help greatly. 

 

 

 

Quite a wish list. Personally, I can continue to live with all of that for now and concentrate on having a capable manager and a confident and united team capable of challenging for promotion back to the Premiership.

The sentiments expressed in this thread are very laudable indeed, but I can't help feeling that they are based on a bit of an irony. What the well intentioned OP suggests is that fans should donate from their own funds, effectively to allow football players, most of whom earn far more than they do, to enjoy levels of pay which are way above the market value of what they do. One of the reasons that most football clubs struggle for cash and depend on donations from the wealthy (and indeed not so wealthy) is that they are trying to find wages which are considerably higher than their players' effective earning power.

Now, I can't see a way out of this for as long as it is driven from the top by remunerating idiots well enough for them to blow half a million on a night's gambling and sustained below that by attempts to retain full time playing staff who arguably aren't actually good enough to deserve that status. These attempts also include sugar daddies allowing economic nonsense to prevail and there is something fundamentally wrong with football's relationship with money. I don't want to knock Elgin 1's good intentions, but what he has said raises a number of questions. Firstly, he says he is a teacher, in which case he would need to be fairly highly promoted if his earnings even match those of the players who have just failed to maintain Premiership status and there will be very many fans less well paid than E1. In ballpark figures, I think it's completely unjust to look to the bottom 90% or more of the earnings range to contribute towards sustaining the top 10% or less. It reminds me of an organisation which used to be called "The Society for the Relief of Indigent Gentlewomen of Scotland" whose business used to be to collect money from the public so that well heeled women who considered it below their status to work could be kept in luxury. It was utterly immoral! Then there's the irony that fans - justifiably - complain about ticket prices (which in turn are largely dictated by the need to pay these wage levels.) That being so, then where is the case for voluntarily coughing up even more to sustain these wage levels?

The other consideration is that football simply tries, or in some cases needs, to ignore economic realities. If any normal business is unable to balance its books it either cuts costs, goes into liquidation.... or allows itself to merge or be taken over. The problem with this last one is that there will be few instances in football where this is practicable. I don't actually believe that the inner Moray Firth is capable of sustaining long term two Premiership football clubs - even when one is heavily subsidised by a benefactor. An economist landing on a space ship from another planet would propose a merger but we all know that, in a football environment, this is a total non starter. (It was barely feasible 20 odd years ago within the same, very local community, which Dingwall - Inverness isn't. But PLEASE nobody go "there" again!!) So, as a result of not subscribing to basic economic principles such as mergers, takeovers and wage restraint, football leaves itself with very few options and I don't think fan subsidy over and above ticket charges is realistic. On the other hand maximising sales of tickets by convincing people that purchase is worthwhile is another matter.

Remember also that so-called "investment" in a football club is simply the making of non-returnable donations, either large ones from wealthy people or the smaller ones such as many of us made 20 years ago with our share purchases of £250 or whatever.

A final word on the hotel proposal. Apart from wondering where these premises would be located, I must query Northern_jaggie's estimates where he appears to balance the capital cost of 20 bedrooms with gross earnings based on a number of projected outcomes (and about £80 a night). I don't see any provision in there for operating costs such as business rates, wages, food, energy, maintenance, VAT etc etc.

I was probably over critical of hospitality at our patch given it's been a number of years (3 or so) since I've been at TCS. It was a pie on a plate and drinks until half time when I went. Circa £120 for the hospitality ticket was why I didn't take it up this year.

I see E1s post as an attempt to bring some positive suggestions to our situation which is exactly what I was trying to do by suggesting a hotel/bar at the stadium. As I said the figures are wild guesses which can't be relied upon but come on Charles, to pick up on that detail and not acknowledge the Kilmarnock parallel makes you seem negative.

Your response reeks of the exact same mist of "it'll never work, what we have is what we have" philosophy that decision makers at our club employ which has led to our overall decline on an off the park.

I don't see one visionary proposal, what do you think about the puddle in the pie queue? 

 

I did the hospitality this year & thought it was pretty good. 

Fans donations would have to be for specific things, rather than being absorbed into the general running costs of the club.

Was shocked to see the state of the exterior of the main stand last week, the red (or orange, now) supports are looking very rusty & in a terrible state - what sort of an impression does that give, next to the portakabin shop!

16 minutes ago, jingsmonty said:

I did the hospitality this year & thought it was pretty good. 

Fans donations would have to be for specific things, rather than being absorbed into the general running costs of the club.

Was shocked to see the state of the exterior of the main stand last week, the red (or orange, now) supports are looking very rusty & in a terrible state - what sort of an impression does that give, next to the portakabin shop!

If you fancy volunteering for a day to get a few things resolved, I'm sure the club would be more than happy for you to assist. 

Not trying to have a dig it's just it's another outgoing unless someone does it for free.

 

Edited May 29, 20179 yr by 12th Man

I 

6 minutes ago, 12th Man said:

If you fancy volunteering for a day to get a few things resolved, I'm sure the club would be more than happy for you to assist. 

Not trying to have a dig it's just it's another outgoing unless someone does it for free.

 

I know the sweet sum of FA about DIY (as my Wife would testify to...), would be happy to do it as part of a group though..although basic maintenance of the stadium is something that should be a regular thing for the club to do anyway..I don't know how the club is set up for maintenance - do they have someone of staff for basic stuff or do they contract in..

For fans to contribute, I think if should be to improve facilities or generate additional income for the club.

For instance this might be scoffed at, but we have and overflow area in the car park that doesn't get used. 

I believe we have full time green keepers at hand and available staff throughout the day.

Can anyone suggest a half decent putting green or a pitch and put in the area.

Not sure how much it would generate but if you offered an annual membership  and half price for guests, for use during working hours or just came down with your own clubs and used an honesty box out with in the summer months.

The flags have been out in the main stand for 3 seasons now.

Would advertising in this area generate more cash or would full size home and away strip shaped flags help with shirt sales for narrower section in open sections.

 

1 hour ago, Northern_jaggie said:

As I said the figures are wild guesses which can't be relied upon but come on Charles, to pick up on that detail and not acknowledge the Kilmarnock parallel makes you seem negative.

Your response reeks of the exact same mist of "it'll never work, what we have is what we have" philosophy that decision makers at our club employ which has led to our overall decline on an off the park.

I have expressed no opinion at all on whether a hotel in whatever site would be viable or not because I simply wouldn't know. All I am saying is that it isn't valid to make an economic case based on projected capital costs versus projected gross income because no figure is included for the major element of running costs. And that's before you even allow for the fact that the capital cost and gross income figures are based on "wild guesses". Adding up all the uncertainties and omissions, I would have to suggest that, in this case, back of an envelope calculation like this doesn't really tell us anything. You can't make an economic case on the basis of an incomplete set of wild guesses. Whether it's worth making a more rigorous investigation of the viability of a hotel is another matter.

On ‎23‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 10:25 PM, Elgin1 said:

Yeah I'm not sure how much schools do, I do know we grt lots of free tickets for international rugby matches but never heard for football. Guess even if free, the money for merchandise will follow. I could easily get 50 kids from my classes to go to a game. Why doesn't caley have an electronic score board? Additional revenue through pulse advertising I've seen, read can be quite lucrative. Nobody from Fochabers way? Free tickets throughout year would be better, like late rooms, why have empties making no money. I'm not a season ticket holder, but after pay for ten games, free entry for a mate? Think website needs a huge overhaul. Are fans on a group at the club for relaying ideas?

Contact the club re schools tickets. There wont be a problem. Available if you ask.