Sorted

You seem to have forgotten about Argentina 1978. As far as the behaviour of Gordy Brown is concerned, of course he's been spouting away on Jade Goody, Susan Boyle etc and not on Lockerbie but that is just par for the course. He's a politician and what he does is not determined by consistency or logic but by the prime consideration of political advantage. It's a complete foul up, the SNP are squirming so it's to his advantage to shut up. Wee Alec would do just the same. Disagree Charles. Don't think Eck and his crew are squirming at all. The performance by opposition parties in the parliament yesterday was lamentable, in particular Annabelle Goldie's suggestion that he should have been sent to the local hospice/hospital the cringeworthy highlight. Malcolm Chisholm's intervention was very pleasing and reminds us all that ther are still some good traditional Scotitish scoialist values left in New Labour even if they do there best to hide them. From where I stand, Eck is in the strong position of having done the right thing (principally because they had to), getting the political bashing akin to be savaged by a toothless ewe whilst the real big hitters sit back in scilence because they know they can't/daren't/won't say anything for fear of incrimination. Brown will be far too busy drinking pints with the greatest cricket team ever to play the game to spend any time worrying about such trivial matters!

The problem as I see it DC is that the reverse situation is also true. Is the result the lesser of two evils .... not sure!!

This looks likely now :( ! Flintoff will at least be offered the title to a large part of Scotland/Wales/Cornwall and a long weekend with one of the Queens grandaughters!! A place in the House of Lords will follow and a walk on part in the next James Bond film. God help us if they actually became any good at the game again!!

Customers in TK Maxx pay the staffs' wages there too. As a customer, does this entitle me to pop in every second Saturday and shout abuse at the checkout girls for 90 mins? You can't really conflate a checkout girl at TK Maxx with a professional footballer earning a grand a week. Even so, if you were short changed and received goods or services of inadequate quality, you would be perfectly entitled to complain. It would obviously be wrong to 'shout abuse' at somebody who was trying to do a job but simply wasn't very good at it. ICT have never been world beaters, and expectations of what can be achieved on the pitch have to be realistic and fair. But considering the time and money most fans invest in supporting ICT, it isn't unreasonable to expect 11 well paid professional footballers on the park to give 100% effort for 90 minutes once a week in return. If fans don't think this is the case, they have every right to vent their feelings from the stand. It's part of football, and anyone who can't handle that should either grow some b"lls or find another hobby. The wages bit is an interesting one. At what point does the money paid reach a level worthy of abuse? If it is ?1000 per week then this would mean that many of the squad should be excluded. Even as an SPL club we had guys going on the pitch on ?500 per week and less, regularly. I reckon there will be a number of staff in TK Maxx that would be on that and more but it's how we identify them. Maybe we can put a sticker on their shorts or shop uniform stating wether they reach the cut off point or not. Fans have every right, all of us. That means I have the right to support and encourage. i will continue to do this as I have not reached the stage that I believe our players go out to fail on purpose. I also know more than four words.

Customers in TK Maxx pay the staffs' wages there too. As a customer, does this entitle me to pop in every second Saturday and shout abuse at the checkout girls for 90 mins?

Of course we didn't because it wasn't the right thing to do. Relfecting on matters for a bit, I am now 100% certain this was the correct and proper decision to make based on the evidence given. From what I now understand there have been 30 applications for similar release in recent times and all but 7 have been granted. Requests refused have been made on the grounds that there was a lack of substantive medical certainty. Scottish law, a justice system which is rightly recognised as one of the finest, has been applied fairly and squarely. Predictably this has now become a political football with Labour in Scotland (though the scilence from London Labour is deafening), the Tories and amazingly our Liberal Party all taking potshots at the SNP. Really amusing to hear Radio Scotland this morning when Bill "Rudolph Hess" Aitken was being supported by Ian Gray. Gray's answer when asked why this decision was any different to other similar requests was ridiculous. Perhaps he should draw up a list of crimes/offences to which our legal system applies and those that it doesn't! Decisions like the difficult one taken by Kenny MacAskill will do more to influence the spread of fundamentalism throughout the world than any war waging political leader can ever do. If we demonstrate ourselves to be a fair, humane, compassionate democracy then our opinions may be respected much more than they are at present. Mahatma Gandhi - "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind"

Think last time I heard the term "coloured" was in an episode of Love Thy Neighbour ............

100% with you JB! At long last a parliament within the UK that is prepared to stand up to the USA. Even assuming Megrahi was the guilty party (which I find difficult to accept), I am proud that we as a nation have people in power who are capable of showing compassion. The horse trading approach proposed by the UK government is sickening. This must have been an very difficulty decision to make but for me, it is clearly the right one. Whatever my own politics, I support Kenny McAskill and thought that his responses to very difficult questions were spot on. Also, isn't it very interesting top see the clear demarkation in the reaction from the families of the British victims and that of the Americans. People who must have and still do live with huge levels of grief and emotion reaching totally opposing conclusions. Can't say for certain how I would have reacted as thankfully, I have never experienced such. I like to think i would be with the good Doctor and his allies but don't know for certain.

Fair point. Equally, how often do you get hundreds, sometimes thousands, of folk arriving at your work, many deluded by dreams of bygone days into thinking that they could do or could have done your job far better than you and, then take great pleasure in making sure you know exactly what they think?

After Saturday, it is clear once and for all that many of our fans are the OF of the North. Symptoms have been there for a number of years but it is clear that this is now the full blown virus. Divine right to success, more abuse of own players/management than the opposition, ridiculous expectations about who we should have at our club, ridiculous demands that the club should do this or that and most of all the obvious pleasure it gives many when they have the opportunity to show it!! Never gone to a game hoping my team fails but I think, in fact pretty certain now, that there are some who look forward to an afternoon of abuse for failure more than the chance to applaud success. That's when you know ur truly OF'd. Ask Alex McLeish or Gordon Strachan.

In a close run contest between David Van Zanten and David Van Day, the pompus little blonde one is preferred as a squad addition, on the condition he refuses to sing!! This must be a wind up ..........

Clubs like Clyde deserve all the support and help they can get. Proper football club even if the did once employ Graham Roberts!!! Solutions must be found to ensure that they survive and it will be a sad reflection on all if a long term solution cannot be found. Totally different from the cheque book Livi approach.

This thread is magic!!!

If the media reports are correct, this looks like one of the weakest national line ups I can recall. It almost has a Vogtsesque look about it. Can we question the manager or are we really this weak? Anyway fingers crossed and hope for the best !!

I can understand that you both are looking out for your childrens well-being but you're at a football match and if you don't want them to hear abusive language then don't take them to a football match. No place for racism in football but that isn't even close to what we are talking about on this thread so start another one if you think there is really an issue at TCS or among our fans... for me it's not, I've not heard any offensive racial slur in our support. A few fans have gone overboard after an incident which happened with an ICT player... lets not make this into somethig it isn't Ask my kids who have sat in the lower main stand behind the away dug out how many racial insults were shouted at Nakamura by the four middle aged "gentlemen" with the hipflask? Or who always screams at the black players? Or why is Craig Brewster always being called names and sworn at? Or who was the man who told them what a "fenian c~nt" was? The saddest part of it all was most, like you think there is no problem. My family had 8 ST's between them and we now have none. The final nail was the totally unacceptable abuse dished out to CB. We know we are not alone in this. Whether you like it or not there is an element of our "support" which is unacceptable. This is not a one off incident and pretending otherwise will only give it some kind of acceptability. There is a problem and it needs addressed.

The authorities? This is getting very dramatic now, protecting kids from hatred, homophobia, racism and bigotry? Theres an awful lot worse places they could be taking their kids than ICT matches, these same kids you want to see come to games will hear a hell of alot worse in school, if the atmosphere at ICT matches was really that hate filled then nobody would go. I think it went too far yesterday by our standards. If it was genuinely abusive or aggressive then the police standing at the front of the stand wouldve stopped it, coming on here and encouraging them to step in against all abuse of ICT players/managers is ridiculous, as thats what theyll do, many innocent fans will get caught up in it. Everybody there paid the same money to get in, some chose to abuse one of our players and some chose not too, personally I dont consider what anybody else in the ICT section does on a matchday to be any of my business. Agree with all of that... a few of them went a bit overboard yesterday but on the other hand that group generated the atmosphere throughout and made it a belter of a day I think Sorted is using this for his/her own agenda Harry I have no agenda other than wanting to take my kids to football matches without having to listen to drones and drones of abusive chants aimed at people they may know and/or admire. Also tired of having to justify to my six year old son why I don't do something about it!! I am encouraged that this behaviour is now being challenged on a more regular basis and will continue to harp on about it until it stops. Just because all your body hair isn't fully in place doesn't give you the right to behave like that and it needs challenged!! In the past I've had to explain to my boy what several unacceptable terms mean whether aimed a Asian or Black players at TCS. I am amazed at how often these remarks were laughed at by others and will not allow my kids to grow up thinking that they are acceptable at football or anywhere else in life. If that means I have an agenda so be it. I hope many others do to! Cheeers Sorted

I have know idea whether this is a sound commercial decision or not as I (unlike many who have posted appear to) do not have the benefit of having viewed the financial profile for this part of the operation. Lack of information means I have no right to comment from this perspective. I also love the archive section and would suggest that many who are now condeming the club for their actions are the same posters who ridiculed the club, on many occasions, for the club shop set up. Yet another example of the kind of abuse for the sake of abuse posting which takes place regularly. All that said, I really feel for the fantastic staff who have worked extremely hard in difficult conditions for our benefit. The decision taken, rightly or wrongly, by the club will have a significant effect on their lives. I hope that the club realises the great asset they have in people terms and keeps the girls involved. Thanks for all your help, always with a smile.

Fantastic post of the quality I've now come to expect from many within CTO. There are numerous examples of players all over the world whio end up playing for their boyhood heroes arch rivals without difficulty. Fortunately for them, this took place in parts of the world that have received the benefit of books and other forms of educational material. All this lack of opportunity and small man syndrome?!!!!! I despair!!!

This is hopefully the beginning of the end for this rubbish which only appeared to start when we hit the SPL. The levels of abuse that some of our own players/managers have had from so called fans has been ridiculous and been dismissed for too long by far too many people as "childish banter". It is not and needs to be policied by us as fans and the authorities. Looks like there are now a number of folk ready to stand up and be counted. If we expect parents to take their kids to games and help build a new set of supporters it is up to us to give them an environment that encourages not breeds hatred, homophobia, racism or bigotry. Who cares what happens at other clubs, surely we are capable of delivering better?

Don't often disagree with Alex but even a blind man can see that Gannon doesn't fancy Ike! TBH I was astounded that an SPL club made a move for him as although he can be a fantastic instictive stopper his positional sense is woeful and IMO will always cost you more in the long. Will be very disappointed if money (whether it's a % of his salary or whatever) can be found to bring him back when the funds could be used elsewhere as we already have a first class keeper in Esson.

This Livi saga has been allowed to drag on for far too long and the SFL must take some responsibility for their failure to act before now. The chaos that their late intervention has caused is significant and although we may laugh at our neighbours, they are now in the ridiculous position of having programmes printed, hospitality sold out (alledgedly!) and not knowing if the have a game on Saturday. If the SFL the SFA follow their own appeal procedures then it could be twenty days before a conclusion is reached (never mind the possibility of proper legal action). This is a joke. For the record I totally support Livi's long overdue removal. Although the blame for this farce can be placed at the door of Massone and to some extent Flynn, the West Lothian public need to have a long hard look in their own direction. It's all very well to support the team in good times (although numbers weren't huge they were significant) and send thousand to Hampden for finals, they have disappeared faster than a cream cake in Kerry Katona's kitchen. This to me is the biggest worry in football at the moment and our club is fairly typical. Success is demanded and measured against ridiculous standards. How often have we read posts on our forums talking about "failure", "disaster" or "sacking" when we sat tenth in the top flight of Scottish football? I intend to look back at our time in the SPL very fondly and remember lots of fantastic occasions throughout our stay, it was magnificent and may well never be repeated.

First time round maybe, second time round he was as good as an old wet hat. Just like brewster then Hardly, Brewster only turned out twice on the TCS pitch the second time round if I remeber right. Some may argue that it was twice more than Dennis!

The $64 million question: who plays the DOF?

OFF TOPIC I know but i got a grey suit, burgundy shirt, grey tie and burgundy shoes from Our Man in Church St for my 18th!!!!! Happily there are no photos

Any news on our neighbours progress or lack of it?