Goodbye SPL

[Caley]

Just heard on Radio Scotland Paul Clark from Duff and Phelps saying that Bill Miller will take over Rangers and transfer all the assets to a new company, leaving all the debt in the old company (good luck to all the creditors then and that includes all us taxpayers). He also went on to say that Miller has received assurances from the authorities that the new Rangers company will play in the SPL next season.

That's the end for me. Not going to pay good money to follow a team in a crooked league. A league that supports a club that evaded tax for a decade. A league that supports a club that owes £130 million because they bought the SPL title for a number of years and has no intention of paying this money back.

I'll get my football kicks at Clach or City next season.

[SMEE]

Isnt that kind of Penalising ICT for the actions of Rangers FC?

On the Bill Miller offfer. Its disgusting what he is expecting to get. Trying to get away with only paying £6m on debts of over £100m is taking the ****....and IF HMRC etc go for it, its sending out the wrong signal, but hopefully those concerened will do the right thing and refuse the offer.

Not only that, he wants to keep the best bits and be allowed to continue as tho nothing was ever done illegally. If anyone of us dared avoid taxes for a year, they would throw the book at us.....lets hope Rangers are made an example of.

Edited May 3, 2012 by SMEE

[Renegade]

Surely UEFA will step in...wouldn't they?

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

Early days. Based on what is currently in the public domain, the Miller bid was deemed the better bid at the 11th hour. Duff and Duff Again, Multi millionaire Administrators, had to do something quick. Rangers collapse and liquidation remains firmly on the cards,

Soon all players will have the right to return to their former wages or be allowed to jump ship. The grass will be a lot greener.

If you were a player looking for a career move, would you join a new club that was clearly not Rangers F C hoping one day that the toxic Rangers F C would one day rid itself of problems and rejoin the new Rangers. That might be a year or so. Meantime, new Rangers F C might struggle to attract reasonable players and even if it had money, probably restricted by current bans. It would seem unlikely that the SPL would support clubs reforming to escape disciplinary action or else it could happen more often.

Rangers fans should be very worried that this is not the end of their problems.

Get down to ICT and buy a Recession Season Ticket. It took Inverness the length of Rangers history to get into Scotland's top flight. Support a decent club and let Rangers find their true level in Scottish society and history. Your club needs you.

[old caley girl]

I won't penalise ICT but probably a trip to Ibrox will be off the agenda for a long while. However nothing is set in stone yet so let's see what happens next.

Edited May 3, 2012 by old caley girl

[PaderbornCaley]

Just heard on Radio Scotland Paul Clark from Duff and Phelps saying that Bill Miller will take over Rangers and transfer all the assets to a new company, leaving all the debt in the old company (good luck to all the creditors then and that includes all us taxpayers). He also went on to say that Miller has received assurances from the authorities that the new Rangers company will play in the SPL next season.

That's the end for me. Not going to pay good money to follow a team in a crooked league. A league that supports a club that evaded tax for a decade. A league that supports a club that owes £130 million because they bought the SPL title for a number of years and has no intention of paying this money back.

I'll get my football kicks at Clach or City next season.

I completely understand what your saying but my solution will be different if this happens. I won't be going to any games involving 'Rangers'. I'll treat it as a weekend off football. I couldnt't go and support another team though. It's either Caley Thistle or nothing at all.

If Rangers emerge as a newco and carry on in the SPL, I might invoice them for the games we've lost at Ibrox. £25 quid to watch us lose (like in December) against a team fielded fraudulently.

Edited May 3, 2012 by CapitalCaley

[ICTRoughi]

I can't see why people would feel the need in punishing Caley for Rangers' wrong doing. End of the day, it's inevitable what's going to happen for Rangers - liquidation. Rangers will get what's coming to them. 3 year ban in Europe, points deduction and a X amount percentage of the revenue from SPL. I can't see how the SPL will be a crooked league, if they don't do sanctions then you have to start asking questions.

We need to support Caley financially at every chance we can, so we don't end up like Rangers. Next season will provide a good reason to renew season tickets with C*unty coming up to the SPL, we need a bigger and better support than them and prove that we are better than them.

As Old Caley Girl says - Boycott Ibrox. That way Caley won't be harmed.

[Alex MacLeod]

This is not about punishing a particular team. This is about protesting against the enethical means by which this new Rangers are going to be treated in the SPL. Sorry but if the clubs vote to accept the new Rangers then I wont be supporting the clubs. I will be one of the 60 odd thousand Scottish football fane who have indicated they will stop supporting Scottish football. The message to the clubs is simple. Drop the newco team and survive of accept the newco team and die.

[old caley girl]

So Alex a club (us) who won't even have a vote re newco Rangers will suffer financially while new Rangers will carry on regardless. How is this a fair protest. As a smallish spl club we would suffer more than most if folk stay away. By all means don't give Rangers any money but not supporting our club because of this is so unfair imo.

Edited May 3, 2012 by old caley girl

[CaleyD]

Just to add to the point OCG has made.

The decision on any application to join the SPL...be that a Pheonix Company from a liquidated club or any team being promoted...is taken by the SPL Board and NOT the individual clubs.

This has been the case since the season following our initial promotion to the SPL when it was agreed that individual clubs (especially those involved in relegation) had far too much of a vested interest in order for them to make an unbiased decision.

Where the clubs DO have some say is in the setting/changing of the rules....and that is an ongoing situation.

If Rangers agree a CVA or liquidate before 13th May then there are no rules to apply additional sanctions and it would be a straight choice between allowing a NewCo Rangers in to the SPL or not.

If they fail to meet the 13th May deadline then it's liquidation...and my money is on Miller spinning it out till then as I think the whole incubator company thing is smoke and mirrors and has more holes in it that the ICT defence.

That is when/where the clubs will have to show their hand, and only if/when that happens will we, as fans, be able to judge our clubs on the decisions they make.

[Caley]

The decision on any application to join the SPL...be that a Pheonix Company from a liquidated club or any team being promoted...is taken by the SPL Board and NOT the individual clubs.

True, but given that the SPL board is currently -

Ralph Topping (SPL Chairman), Neil Doncaster (SPL Chief Executive), Eric Riley (Celtic FC), Stephen Thompson (Dundee United FC), Derek Weir (Motherwell FC) and Steven Brown (St Johnstone FC) it seems that the SPL clubs are not independent of the SPL board which seems to be the point you were making.

If they fail to meet the 13th May deadline then it's liquidation...and my money is on Miller spinning it out till then as I think the whole incubator company thing is smoke and mirrors and has more holes in it that the ICT defence

Absolutely right. This "incubator company" is complete tosh and only there to appease Rangers fans who won't support a new company if the old Rangers were liquidated. Let's not liquidate old Rangers but leave them hanging there with debts of £130 million in the vain hope that one day these debts can be settled and old Rangers and new Rangers can rejoin. Meanwhile new Rangers carry on spouting their bile up and down the country.

The whole thing stinks and I want no part of it any more. But that's just my personal opinion and I respect the opinion of anyone who thinks otherwise.

[Jay_7]

Due to financial constraints this season, I've been unable to make it to many games at all. Regardless of this farce of a "Recession Ticket" I think the following formula will cover next season adequately:

Financial constraints + Crap product on field + Relatively unscathed Rangers = Vast decline in attendances

[Alex MacLeod]

Think many are missing my point. My views are nothing to do with boycott of individual teams. I refuse to have anything to do with a corrupt football league. A league so corrupt that they will support a team that has broken the law of the land. Sorry but I wont support that. If I dont pay my due taxes I could go to jail. They dont pay and get off with it and with full support of the league.

[Huisdean]

Think many are missing my point. My views are nothing to do with boycott of individual teams. I refuse to have anything to do with a corrupt football league. A league so corrupt that they will support a team that has broken the law of the land. Sorry but I wont support that. If I dont pay my due taxes I could go to jail. They dont pay and get off with it and with full support of the league.

Alex

Don't think the tax case has been decided yet one way or another so not sure if we can yet say, they have broken the law of the land yet. The practice of minimising how much tax you pay is not illegal but certainly to me immoral and if HMRC succeed in their case against rangers, there are a lot of clubs in England who will be very worried indeed.

I think we need to wait and see what the fallout is before we all rush to make decisions on what, for many, is a very emotive issue. My own view is that if rangers become a newco, then they should be relegated to the third division regardless of what the finacial fall out is as this then gives the SPL a huge chance to chance the face of Scottish football. While that may take a few years and will cause finacial hardship for some clubs, in the long run, it must improve the situation.

I, for one, will still be in my usual seat next season supporting my team.

[+Fraz]

Think many are missing my point. My views are nothing to do with boycott of individual teams. I refuse to have anything to do with a corrupt football league. A league so corrupt that they will support a team that has broken the law of the land. Sorry but I wont support that. If I dont pay my due taxes I could go to jail. They dont pay and get off with it and with full support of the league.

Alex

Don't think the tax case has been decided yet one way or another so not sure if we can yet say, they have broken the law of the land yet. The practice of minimising how much tax you pay is not illegal but certainly to me immoral and if HMRC succeed in their case against rangers, there are a lot of clubs in England who will be very worried indeed.

I think we need to wait and see what the fallout is before we all rush to make decisions on what, for many, is a very emotive issue. My own view is that if rangers become a newco, then they should be relegated to the third division regardless of what the finacial fall out is as this then gives the SPL a huge chance to chance the face of Scottish football. While that may take a few years and will cause finacial hardship for some clubs, in the long run, it must improve the situation.

I, for one, will still be in my usual seat next season supporting my team.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I have my wires crossed but I'm sure I read that they have not paid their tax this season and that was one of the reasons for them entering administration.

[CaleyD]

In regards the Big Tax Case, what is going on just now is the "First Tier Tribunal". My understanding is that there are two things being argued in the case. First, whether or not Rangers actually breached the rules of Tax Avoidance and entered the realms of Tax Evasion. Second, Rangers appear to be pleading a parallel position which says that if rules were broken then they were done so with the board being ignorant of that fact.

It seems to be fairly well accepted (unless you are Rangers fan) that Rangers used EBT's in a manner for which they were not intended as a Tax Avoidance measure. It's the second part which is causing the delays as HMRC need to prove Rangers knowingly did what they did. It's this part of the argument that spurned the stories of document shredding, and it is this part of the argument which hinges on the existence of these Back Letters (Second Contracts). If these Back Letters can be proven to exist then Rangers entire defence falls apart. If they can't be proven to exist then HMRC will need to show by some other means that Rangers knew exactly what they were doing...and there's plenty of other ways to do that.

Rangers Guilty or Not on the Big Tax Case? Technically they have been found guilty once, but as it has gone to appeal then that decisions is set aside while the appeal is heard.

Small Tax Case...I'm not that familiar with the details of it, insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

PAYE & NI from May (onwards) last year. To be Tax Evasion then Rangers would have had to do something to try and avoid a liability for tax having appeared in the first case. They have simply not paid it, so it's an unpaid bill.

[Alex MacLeod]

Avoiding tax is one thing. Failing to pay the tax and National Insurance of their staff is something totally different. If that is not paid then its the employee's who lose out in the benefits available. Pensions could be affected. Sick pay could be affected. Rangers have, illegally, held on to money that is the employee's contribution to the state. If that goes unpunished then the whole system is a total farce and one that I couldn't be supportive of.

Lets look at whats really happening. The American is buying the assets and the business from Rangers FC for an undisclosed sum. That sum will go towards paying off the debt Rangers owe though I dont see it being enough to totally clear all debt so an element of CVA will happen. Many people will lose out. They cant now sue against the assets because these no longer belong to Rangers FC. Rangers FC have a banning order against hiring players over 19. I presume this ban will not apply to the newco. The newco will have no debt so will they be allowed a Uefa licence? It seems to me that a squeeky clean Rangers will emerge from all this with no sanctions against them while the old company will just disappear into the mire without punishment for their years of fraudulent history.

[marks]

This situation is all about the moral standpoint and how you personally choose to follow your conscience. ICT have a vote on bringing in rules which deal with a newco being punished should they be allowed into the SPL. The SPL board can at this moment place any sanctions they see fit on a newco but by voting to have a set of rules in place, a vote which falls on all SPL and requires an 11-1 majority, legitimises newcos and accepts that there is a possibility of allowing them direct access to the SPL. The SPL members should, for the sake of our game, be making a rule which requires newcos to restart from scratch. You cannot just wipe out your debts, acquired through trying to maintain a false position within the footballing world (cheating), and expect to keep your place in the top tier of the countries league system. If the SPL vote to legitimise cheating in this manner then I am done with the SPL.

The Dons supporters trust released this open letter, I am dismayed that the ICT supporters trust have not followed suit.

The Board of Dons Supporters Together have sent this open letter to Aberdeen FC Chairman Stewart Milne in regards to the upcoming SPL Meeting later this month.

Dear Mr Milne,

As you prepare for the meeting of the SPL clubs on 30 April 2012 to discuss the proposed changes to the rules of the SPL, we wish to make you aware of the views of the supporters we represent.

It is our opinion that the proposed changes to the SPL rules do not go far enough, and have as their main purpose the facilitation of the direct entry of a Newco Rangers into the SPL following liquidation of the previous commercial entity. You will be aware of the strength of feeling that such a potential outcome arouses amongst followers of football across Scotland, and the potential damage to the game as a whole if financial self-interest is allowed to over-ride the principles of fair play, integrity and honouring ones obligations.

The astonishing number of responses to the recent splsurvey and consistency of views expressed (even from Rangers supporters) cannot be ignored. Ultimately, the finance in the game comes from the pockets of the paying supporters, either through their direct contact with the clubs through ticket sales and merchandise or indirectly via their subscriptions to TV companies and sponsors.

In survey after survey, these same customers whose money funds the game are telling every club and footballing authority in Scotland that they want more variety in larger leagues, more positive open, attacking and attractive football played, a fairer distribution of money within the game across all the leagues, and an even-handed application of the rules by officials and regulating bodies. Until the customers views are listened to and their views acted on, the game in Scotland will continue its slow and steady decline

With regard to the SPL proposals our view is

Resolution 1 – In favour.

Resolution 2A – Against. Instead, we feel that an alternative Resolution 2 should be proposed which specifically prohibits an Insolvency Transfer Event.

Resolution 2B – Not applicable due to the prohibition of Insolvency Transfer Event.

Resolution 3 – In favour.

Resolution 4 – The principles of our views on Resolutions 1,2A, 2B and 3 above should be applied to whatever specific updates are proposed.

Resolution 5 – Not applicable due to the prohibition of Insolvency Transfer Event. An alternative rule should be proposed under which a member club’s share in the SPL is not transferable, and in the event of liquidation that share lapses. The remainder of the current season will be played out by the remaining clubs with games already played against the defunct club declared null and void. The vacant place will be filled by a double promotion from the top of the SFL first division at the end of that season.

Resolution 6 – In favour.

Resolution 7 – In favour.

With regard to the potential of “life without Rangers”, it seems to us that the official statement you made in the Annual Accounts of 2002 is as relevant to the current situation as it was during the events of 2002 :-

“It is difficult to envisage exactly what is going to happen in terms of the infrastructure of the game in Scotland

but, as things stand, Aberdeen, along with all the other SPL clubs other than the Old Firm, will be leaving the SPL at the conclusion of season 2003/4. If that does happen, Aberdeen, along with the other clubs outwith the Old Firm, will be looking to form a new league with a new voting structure which Rangers and Celtic will be invited to join. If they choose to decline this invitation there is little doubt that, in the short term, there will be a reduction in revenues from broadcasting and sponsorship due to their absence. However, it is my firm belief that within a short period, a Scottish league, in which a number of clubs will be capable of winning the championship, will become extremely attractive to television companies and business organisations alike.”

If the current 10 non Old-Firm clubs were to pursue today, the course of action proposed 10 years ago, it would be with the full support of DST. The notion of individual clubs owning their own TV rights in a league is preposterous, as is that of 2 clubs acting as a concert party and having the power of veto over the majority. The situation is entirely analogous to the rugby 5 Nations situation of the past when England’s demands for an unfair share of TV money were successfully faced down by the other countries.

In the event that Rangers go into liquidation, as an alternative to the 10 resigning from the SPL, we suggest that an immediate egm of the SPL is called and the 10 push through changes to the voting structure while Celtic are in a minority of 1, and before any resumption of Old Firm hegemony can be re-established.

DST considers that the time has now come to arrest the rapid decline of Scottish Football by restoring democracy, and re-distributing finances fairly in the game. The supporting public will no longer tolerate irregularities by the game’s fat cats, nor the subsidy of “too big to fail” enterprises whether they are banks or bankrupt football clubs.

Best Regards

The Board of Dons Supporters Together

http://www.donssuppo.../category/news/

The choice ladies and gentlemen is your own, if you feel that you can follow a club which condones and is a party to cheating on this scale then that is your choice and should not be condemned. My choice however is that I will not tolerate or back any club who, for their own financial gain, legitimises cheating and removes the sport from our wonderful game.

Edited May 4, 2012 by marks

[CaleyD]

Marks, I have had e.mails in the last couple of days asking why we have not done as the Dons have in issuing a letter to the club, and also why we are not pushing the club for a statement on their view on the situation.

I can assure you that the matter is on the agenda, but we have not met, nor had a chance to meet to discuss what, if any, action may be needed on our part at the moment.

I am, however, willing to give my own personal thoughts on the matter.....

In regards to a letter from the Supporters Trust to the club. We already have regular contact with Club Chairman, Kenny Cameron and he is fully aware of what the fans are saying on the matter. The "Open Letter" issued by Dons Trust would suggest to me that they perhaps don't have that kind of relationship/dialogue with Aberdeen FC and the letter was necessary in order for them to get their point across.

In regards a statement from the club on their position on things. With the situation changing daily...even hourly...then any statement would likely be out of date/context before it was read....certainly up to this point. I would love for the club to come out and say "We will not support any move by Rangers to re-enter the SPL as a NewCo under any circumstances", but I'm realistic enough to know that for the people who have to balance the books then it can't be as cut and dry as that. I don't think any statement at this stage would tell us anything more than we know already....and that is that it's a very delicate situation and, as evident from last weeks postponement on rule changes, they are not ready or in a position to make a decision. So, IMO, better no statement than a non-statement which would only serve to frustrate.

Once again, to make it absolutely clear, that is my thoughts (at this moment in time) and not a representation of the Supporters Trust or anyone else.

[marks]

Marks, I have had e.mails in the last couple of days asking why we have not done as the Dons have in issuing a letter to the club, and also why we are not pushing the club for a statement on their view on the situation.

I can assure you that the matter is on the agenda, but we have not met, nor had a chance to meet to discuss what, if any, action may be needed on our part at the moment.

I am, however, willing to give my own personal thoughts on the matter.....

In regards to a letter from the Supporters Trust to the club. We already have regular contact with Club Chairman, Kenny Cameron and he is fully aware of what the fans are saying on the matter. The "Open Letter" issued by Dons Trust would suggest to me that they perhaps don't have that kind of relationship/dialogue with Aberdeen FC and the letter was necessary in order for them to get their point across.

In regards a statement from the club on their position on things. With the situation changing daily...even hourly...then any statement would likely be out of date/context before it was read....certainly up to this point. I would love for the club to come out and say "We will not support any move by Rangers to re-enter the SPL as a NewCo under any circumstances", but I'm realistic enough to know that for the people who have to balance the books then it can't be as cut and dry as that. I don't think any statement at this stage would tell us anything more than we know already....and that is that it's a very delicate situation and, as evident from last weeks postponement on rule changes, they are not ready or in a position to make a decision. So, IMO, better no statement than a non-statement which would only serve to frustrate.

Once again, to make it absolutely clear, that is my thoughts (at this moment in time) and not a representation of the Supporters Trust or anyone else.

Thank you D, it is enough for me to know that this is on the agenda.

For the rest of you, what are your thoughts on the situation? How would you suggest as a group we could protest let our feeling be known to the SFA/SPL/ICT?

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

CaleyD - on yer Marks - get set go. The only thing feckin taxing are these threads, If I wa a Mod they would be in General Nonsense. :shooting: