Letter of complaint

[Kingsmills]

There's little point in going to court. The courts, in this country, are reluctant to get involved in the internal affairs of private organisations such as the SPL unless there is some manifest injustice involved.

While there is a healthy debate to be had on the question of safe standing areas, there is no doubt that if the majority of SPL clubs insist that all seated stadia are a prerquisite of membership the court will not interfere with that decision.

[CaleyD]

So we just sit back and do nothing?

The whole standing/sitting debate has gone on long enough - it's time for someone to stand up and do something which will really grab people's attention and force the issue beyond the "debate" stage before the atmosphere is lost in football grounds forever.

The courts may be reluctant to get involved in the internal affairs of the SPL but they have done so in the past on other issues.  They would not be asked to pass judgment on whether or not standing should be allowed.  They would be passing judgment on the legal situation of the SPL having such a rule in place and their ability to enforce that rule by expelling a member club from it's "Business".

The mindset that the SPL is above the law is what has led to many of the problems in Scottish Football, especially at it's highest level and it is aout time people started to take them to task on a few things.

[Kingsmills]

Name an instance where the courts have forced the SPL past. I certainly can't think of an occasion. The only issue in recent times which even got through the doors of the Court Of Session was Partick's application for an interdict and we all knw what became of that.

I'm not suggesting that we do nothing but the only forum that will make a difference is the SPL itself. Accordingly ICT should concentrate on lobbying the other member clubs.

[Charles Bannerman]

Is this not getting a little bit out of hand?

There was a series of incidents at Caley Thistle's final home game which resulted in a number of fans being ejected from the ground for standing. This raised a range of issues including, as far as I can see, bringing to a head a longish running dissatisfaction among some fans with the stewarding at the Caledonian Stadium. The Supporters' Trust very quickly (ie by half time on the day of the game) took the matter on board and is continuing in dialogue with the club on these issues. This is part of what the Trust exists for.

All of this also seems to have set in motion two internet campaigns... one against the Chief Executive (on which I don't intend to comment other than to say that it appears to have at least some of the features of mass hysteria) and the other in favour of fans having the facility to stand at SPL games.

The latter is a perfectly legitimate point of view, but surely standing at games is hardly a core issue for supporters whose club has miraculously come up through the leagues and is now on the verge of the top half of the SPL? I would therefore agree with Kingsmills and suggest that it's a pretty daft idea to take to law what I would suggest is a pretty peripheral issue in the grander scheme of things.

Indeed has Caley Thistle over the years not seen enough of the inside of the law courts? By all means lobby other clubs and their fans. If there is widespread agreement with this view of a significant group of ICT fans then this will be reflected in a vote by the SPL to relax their rules for smaller stadia. If not, then the Inverness "standing" lobby will reluctantly have to accept that they are in a minority.

[CaleyD]

I see nothing "Peripheral" in the issue about standing/bringing back terracing.

It is well documented that the lack of atmosphere at games is in large part due to the lack of terracing, not just at ICT but at grounds throughout the UK.  It also doesn't take a huge leap to tie that in to the ongoing reduction in attendance levels, especially for the "smaller" clubs.

ICT are young (in SFL/SPL terms) and as such still carry a lot of energy and passion from days when we weren't being dictated too about the manner in which we are allowed support our team.  We've not yet had the stuffing knocked out of us by the SPL rules as seems to be the case with many other clubs and fans who take the "we just have to accept it" approach which only serves to fuel the SPL's delusions of grandeur.

We've proved already that the SPL's rules are as set in stone as they try to make us think and I believe that the club should use the energy that exists among it's own fans at the moment to drive the issue forward in a pro-active and positive manner.  The energy is there NOW, the issue us a hot topic among ICT fans so use it, lets not wait till 6 or 12 months down the line when that energy is lost and more of our fans fall victim to the "lets play the politics game" mindset.

History shows that it's the rebel element in any situation that forces change.  Not saying we should be out there breaking the law and causing mayhem, but there are actions which can be taken which will force the SPL and other authorities to sit up, take notice and do something about it.

Like every other issue that is brought up regarding the SPL, it is sent round and round in circles until people lose the will to fight it or it gets lost in a mountain of red tape and BS.  The SPL and it's member clubs need to start taking positive action, not only on this issue but on the entire setup - I for one am fed up of the powers that be simply paying lip service to the issues and doing nothing about them.

The Supporters Trust have taken this issue on board.  We were told we would receive further updates once investigations had been complete.  We have been told those updates are due any day, yet here we are no further down the line than we were 2 or 3 days after the Pars game where it all kicked off.  It doesn't take this long to complete an investigation unless people are f@nnying around and trying to cover their butt.  We all know what happened, we all know who is responsible - what we don't know and want to know is what will be done about it - both with regards to future home matches at ICT and with regards comments from Alan Savage about taking this matter forward with other SPL clubs and the SPL themselves.

It's time for answers and actions not politics and @ss kissing.

[Scotty]

Is this not getting a little bit out of hand?

I think it depends which bit you are talking about Charles.

As you know, from day 1 of this club, many of us have been loyal fans turning up at glamour games against the likes of Albion Rovers, East Stirlingshire or the stars of the cauldron that is recreation park in Alloa .... I would still be going to as many games as I could if I actually lived in the country but alas it is not possible for me at the moment but when I do travel back home, the fixture list is where I look before i even look at plane schedules or anything else !!!

During this 'miraculous' rise through the ranks we have seen the club turn from a fan friendly collaborative organisation where the club knew its fans and worked with them for the benefit of both, into one which gives off the distinct aroma of a corporate entity where "them" and "us" is a more prevalent feeling and attitude. I accept that with our increased success there does need to be a degree of this as the club have to be more business like on all fronts but the simple fact of the matter is that you can be businesslike without pushing people around or treating them like s***. Supporters are also customers and you can only push people so far before you get a backlash - whether that be verbal or by the means of making a choice to no longer attend games (as some have said on here).

As you mentioned ... "There was a series of incidents at Caley Thistle's final home game which resulted in a number of fans being ejected from the ground for standing. This raised a range of issues including, as far as I can see, bringing to a head a longish running dissatisfaction among some fans with the stewarding at the Caledonian Stadium".

This is a prime example of the "them and us" attitude I mentioned. Fans have been complaining about 'heavy handed stewarding' at the stadium for YEARS and for years NOTHING has been done. We have had new users on here over the last couple of years describing harsh treatment received, we have had regular posters like IHE describing the fact that he was told he was "targetted" and we have had incidents where stewards have been alleged to have abused their powers to carry on a personal vendetta by accusing a particular fan of behaviour that ended up with solicitors letters flying around. Perhaps someone like IHE with his obvious passion for the club despite his self described eccentricities will actually get a result but there have been far too many incidents where the club have either done nothing or buried their head in the sand and hoped it would go away. I wont even go into details about the "family section" debacle in the main stand which was highlighted on the Caley Jaggie site when Mr Kelly was running it as that is a different subject (albeit another example of 'them' and 'us').

Perhaps we should expect heavier security now we are in the SPL ? I agree that this is indeed likely ... however, the security applied at the ground should be consistent in all areas of the ground. If you are not going to chuck out OF fans for standing up then you should not be chucking out IHE or the others for the same 'crime'. I think a lot of our fans would ***** and moan about the stewards if they were really heavy handed all over the stadium but there would be less of an impact if this was consistently applied as everyone would be getting the 'treatment'. Incidentally - prior to us reaching the SPL, the worst stewards I encountered were those at Hampden during our semi final experiences - arrogant and officious, but on the footage of the recent cup final, I swear that I saw hundreds of fans standing and cheering without the 'snatch squads' going in and ejecting them ........

I applaud the trust for getting involved in this issue. However I would expect nothing less as it was a joint initiative between them and the club. I will reserve any praise for them until we hear the final outcome of the various meetings, talks and investigations !!! I am possibly being a little unfair with this next comment - but its my opinion and I am going to state it - I hope this doesnt take too much longer or people might wonder whether there is an effort to make this subject go away by drawing it out in the hope that it will be forgotten. IT WILL NOT.

All of this also seems to have set in motion two internet campaigns... one against the Chief Executive (on which I don't intend to comment other than to say that it appears to have at least some of the features of mass hysteria) and the other in favour of fans having the facility to stand at SPL games.

On this we agree ... to a point.

At the end of the day, the chief exec is the top man at the club on a day-to-day basis. Previous incumbents of his position (regardless of the actual name of the position) have been considerably more visible and accessible to the fans and therein lies a good portion of the problem. IHE asked a very valid question - "what does he do, what has he done". As a shareholder of the club, I find myself wondering the same thing. We are paying the man a lot of money and not seeing any tangible results. I have sat down with him and spoken to him on a number of occasions and he seems to be a very pleasant chap but whilst I may have opinions, I have no actual knowledge on how good (or otherwise) he is at his job as I cannot see the results. He is an accountant by qualification is he not ? so I am assuming that he was brought in partially to make sure the cost controls and fiscal management structure that David Sutherland instigated were adhered to. If he is responsible for ongoing prudency in this area then that is a very good achievement which we may not see, but we can and should appreciate. However, as the top man at the stadium, he ultimately takes the rap when things go awry and the Dunfermline game is a good example. Calls for his head are perhaps over the top but I am sure even he can understand the frustration felt by fans ejected by the club from an area they themselves setup to create some atmosphere.

surely standing at games is hardly a core issue for supporters whose club has miraculously come up through the leagues and is now on the verge of the top half of the SPL?

Charles, this is a considerable issue at clubs all over the country regardless of how much progress their club has made. I dont see how the on-field success of the club should negate the desire or right to stand. perhaps you could explain ? Should we sit down, shut up and be thankful just because the football management have put a decent team on the park or should we respond to the pleas of various managers of the club and try to create an atmosphere that they have all admitted spurs the club on - perhaps the '12th man' will actually be a factor in us climbing to the next level of progress and reaching the top 6.

Lest we forget, football is supposed to be about entertainment. we pay money to go and watch the sport because we want to be entertained. For the most part, that happens on the pitch but for years now (and not just at ICT) many clubs have forgotten that supporters are customers and you should treat your customers with some respect before they become ex-customers. Stewards are there to ensure safety and aid/assist the customers, they are not there to enforce petty rules or harass people which is what they have been allowed to do unchecked.

I would therefore agree with Kingsmills and suggest that it's a pretty daft idea to take to law what I would suggest is a pretty peripheral issue in the grander scheme of things.

I would agree with this - there has been too much court activity surrounding Scottish Football in recent years. Fans need their voice to be heard and the SFA/SFL/SPL need to actually listen but the courts is not the place to do it.

[L_G]

for standing. This raised a range of issues including, as far as I can see, bringing to a head a longish running dissatisfaction among some fans with the stewarding at the Caledonian Stadium".

I applaud the trust for getting involved in this issue. However I would expect nothing less as it was a joint initiative between them and the club. I will reserve any praise for them until we hear the final outcome of the various meetings, talks and investigations !!! I am possibly being a little unfair with this next comment - but its my opinion and I am going to state it - I hope this doesnt take too much longer or people might wonder whether there is an effort to make this subject go away by drawing it out in the hope that it will be forgotten. IT WILL NOT.

I don't think this will go away Scotty and nor would I want it too.  The supporter's trust board are keeping on to the club for a response.  Following our board meeting on Monday night, there will be an announcement with the date and time of a fans meeting as soon as that can be arranged. 

[CaleyD]

No disrespect LG (or the Supporters Trust) as I know you guys are doing what you can to get answers.  My rant was directed at the club for (IMO) dragging their heels over this whole thing.

It will be 3 weeks tomorrow since the incident and AFAIK the club are yet to make an official statement other than comments made through the Supporters Trust and answering a couple of questions from the press.  I can't help but feel that they are using the whole "we're working with/talking to the Supporters Trust" situation as something to hide behind instead of having the balls to come out with their own comments on the whole issue.

I also appreciate that the club may not be entirely opposed to the views, ideas and suggestions of some of the fans and have chosen to tread carefully in what they say, but this is just a prime example of politics, red tape and BS getting in the way of progress.

Speak up Mr Savage because we can't hear you at the back - it's all fair and well making the right noises to select individuals behind closed doors but it does nothing to encourage the fans who pay their hard earned every week to come watch the team and many of these people are making their decisions now as to whether or not they will continue to part with their cash next season.  We're being given the impression that you are behind us, the fans, on this issue - and that's great - so how about you let us hear it direct from the horses mouth instead of us relying on hearsay, gossip and second hand news.

[L_G]

We are hopeful that Alan Savage will be able to attend the meeting with the fans, where you will be able to get the answers you are looking for straight from the horses mouth as it were.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Dont fret. Alan and I will work it out.

[Alex MacLeod]

A couple of points.

1. The rules of the SPL were drawn up, and agreed, by the member clubs at its formation. Changes in the rules would need to be agreed by the member clubs. Those rules were drawn up following changes in the law regarding sporting venues and the SPL believe they have gone over and above the guidlines and, as such, I cannot see any court in the land being interested.

2. ICT is a member of the SPL and, provided we could nurture support from other members, can put forward a motion to have changes made. Chances are that we could win over the required support from the SPL.

3. Local authorities and the police will need to be convinced that the safety issues have been addressed before they would allow the issue of public safety certificate.

Those things can be achieved but it all takes time and its very unfair to chastise the board and CE of ICT for what is a national issue. Supporters organisations can network and lobby the governing bodies. Fans can lobby their club. The club can seek support from other clubs and lobby the governing body, the police and the local authorities and I believe that will happen but it will take more than a few weeks or months.

[CaleyD]

A few points of my own.......

1.  The Safety of Sports Grounds (Designation) (Scotland) Order 1998 states that the only Stadia which require a safety certificate under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 are those with a capacity in excess of 10,000 - Tulloch Caledonian Stadium, Inverness is not listed in the schedule as requiring such a certificate due to the fact it's capacity is less than 10,000.

2.  The SPL state that all member clubs must hold such a safety certificate and for that reason ICT do have one.

3.  The Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 does not require Tulloch Caledonian Stadium to be all-seated and it is not a condition of us having received our Safety Certificate.

4.  The SPL would have no legal recourse against ICT to have their Safety Certificate removed if they were to introduce non standing or safe to stand areas as a result of the above.

5.  When the SPL was formed they agreed to a 10,000 All-seater stadia minimum requirement which brought the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 into play by default.  The rules was changed to state that any club gaining entry to the SPL must have a stadia with a minimum of 6,000 seats.

6.  It is the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 that states that all people gaining entry to an all-seater stadia with a capacity exceeding 10,000 must be issued with a ticket for a numbered seat.

A lot of people are being misled by what is SPL rule and what is law.  When the SPL agreed to a reduced minimum capacity of 6,000 seats people assumed that all other rules/laws would remain intact but they do not - this is one of the reasons the SPL resisted the change for so long.

In short, we are currently in a state of limbo with regards to the rules/laws governing SPL stadia with a seated capacity of less than 10,000.

I am of the opinion that the SPL would have absolutely no grounds on which to eject any club with a capacity between 6,000 and 10,000 should they wish to introduce standing/safe to stand areas and if they attempted to do so then the ejection would not stand up if challenged in the courts.

I am also of the firm opinion that re-opening the terracing area opposite our main stand would have no impact on our ability to maintain our safety certificate under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975.

The SPL do have an "all-seater" stadia rule - but the rule does not say that people must sit down.  The only threat they have used in the past to enforce the "you must sit" stance is removal of safety certificates.  Although this would be true in many of the SPL Stadia, it is not a threat which would effect ICT in any way given the facts listed above.

[Guest donmac298]

So why don't we all make a point at the first game next season and we all stand up.  The stewards can't eject us all.

[caley100]

So why don't we all make a point at the first game next season and we all stand up.  The stewards can't eject us all.

:clapping04: good idea.... we all  :dancing01: :dancing01: :dancing01: :dancing01: then the stewards come along and say...  hey its the  :rules03:  ye canna stand or you will get a Johndo and  :walking03: out the gate... 

We say  :finger02:  the  :rules03:  we want to  :banana99: :banana2: :banana99: :banana2: and have a good time!

Along comes  :steward: and we all  :walking01: to the Innes for a  :drinking09:

[Wilsononourwing]

THe European Court of Justice is the answer! You only have to read Mr Bosman's testimonial!!

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

So why don't we all make a point at the first game next season and we all stand up.  The stewards can't eject us all.

:clapping04: good idea.... we all   :dancing01: :dancing01: :dancing01: :dancing01: then the stewards come along and say...  hey its the  :rules03:  ye canna stand or you will get a Johndo and  :walking03: out the gate... 

We say   :finger02:  the  :rules03:  we want to  :banana99: :banana2: :banana99: :banana2: and have a good time!

Along comes  :steward: and we all  :walking01: to the Innes for a  :drinking09:

:rotflmao:

[CaleyD]

I thought the following may be of interest also.......

It gives a brief description of 42 "disasters" which have occurred at Football stadiums since 1902.

1 - APRIL, 1902, GLASGOW, SCOTLAND

25 killed and 516 injured when the West Stand at Ibrox Stadium collapsed during a Scotland versus England international match.

2 - MARCH, 1946, BOLTON, ENGLAND

33 killed and 400 injured when a wall collapsed at Burden Park before and FA cup tie between Bolton Wanderers and Stoke City.

3 - MARCH, 1955, SANTIAGO, CHILE

6 killed when 70,000 tried to jam into the National Stadium for the final of the South American Championship in which Argentina beat Chile 1-0.

4 - SEPTEMBER, 1962, LIBREVILLE, GABON

9 killed and 30 injured when a landslide engulfed part of the stadium during an international between Gabon and Congo-Brazzaville.

5 - MAY, 1964, LIMA, PERU

318 killed and 500 injured at the National Stadium after Argentina beat Peru in an Olympic qualifying match. Trouble broke out when the referee disallowed a Peruvian goal in the final two minutes.

6 - JUNE, 1968, BUENOS AIRES, ARGENTINA

74 killed and 150 injured after a league game between River Plate and Boca Juniors. People trying to leave were crushed against locked exits and burning papers were thrown down by celebrating fans in an upper tier.

7 - JANUARY, 1971, GLASGOW, SCOTLAND

66 killed and 145 injured when fans tried to turn back on a staircase at Ibrox Stadium after a late Rangers equaliser in the derby against Celtic.

8 - MARCH, 1971, SALVADOR, BRAZIL

4 killed and 1,500 injured in panic caused by a fight and a stampede in grandstand.

9 - FEBRUARY, 1974, CAIRO, EGYPT

49 killed and 50 injured as crowds attempting to enter the Zamalek Stadium for a top club game broke down the barriers and a wall collapsed.

10 - OCTOBER, 1976, YAOUNDE, CAMEROON

2 killed in fighting after a penalty was awarded to Cameroon in a World Cup qualifying tie against Congo and the Congolese keeper tried to attack the Gambian referee.

11 - DECEMBER, 1976, PORT-AU-PRINCE, HAITI

6 killed, including 2 children, at a World Cup qualifier between Haiti and Cuba. When Cuba scored, a Haitian fan set off a firecracker. Fans feared gunfire and panicked, knocking down a soldier, whose gun went off and killed a small boy and girl. Further panic caused 2 people to be trampled to death, and one man died jumping over a wall. The soldier committed suicide.

12 - MAY 1978, GHANA

15 killed and 35 injured when a wall collapsed.

13 - AUGUST 1979, NIGERIA

24 killed and 27 injured in a stampede following floodlight failure.

14 - FEBRUARY 1981, PIRAES, GREECE

24 killed in an end of match stampede for exits.

15 - 1981 IBAGUE, COLUMBIA

18 killed and 45 injured when a wall collapsed during a match between Deportes Tolima and Deportivo Cali.

16 - JULY 1982, MOSCOW, RUSSIA

77 killed when fans leaving the National Stadium tried to re-enter the stands after a last minute goal in a UEFA cup tie between Spartak Moscow and Haarlem. Unofficial reports put the death toll at 340.

17 - NOVEMBER 1982, ALGIERS

10 killed after a concrete roof collapsed inside a stadium.

18 - NOVEMBER 1982, CALI, COLUMBIA

24 killed and 250 injured after drunken youths urinated from an upper tier of the Pascual Guerrero Stadium, provoking a stampede below.

19 - MAY 1985, BRADFORD, ENGLAND

56 killed and more than 200 injured when fire engulfed the main stand at the Valley Parade Stadium.

20 - MAY 1985, MEXICO CITY, MEXICO

10 trampled to death and 29 injured when they tried to force entry into a stadium to see a domestic match.

21 - MAY 1985, HEYSEL, BELGIUM

39 fans, mostly Italians, killed as they tried to escape rioting English supporters before the Champions Cup Final between Juventus and Liverpool at the Heysel Stadium.

22 - MARCH 1988, TIPOLI, LIBYA

30 killed and 40 injured when a stand collapsed just before half-time during a friendly international between Libya and Malta being watched by a crowd of 65,000. Fans panicked after a man brandishing a knife or gun went berserk. Hundreds rushed for the exit and a wall collapsed under their weight at the back of the stands.

23 - MARCH 1988, KATMANDU, NEPAL

70 killed when a sudden electric storm provoked a stampede towards locked exits at Nepal’s National Stadium during a match between Janakpur of Nepal and Muktijodha of Bangladesh.

24 - APRIL 1989, SHEFFIELD, ENGLAND

95 killed and 200 injured in Britain’s worst sports disaster. Too many fans were allowed into the Leppings Lane End at Hillsborough, Sheffield, crushing others against the perimeter fence at a FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest. The total number of deaths became 96 when Tony Bland died after being in a coma for almost four years.

25 - MAY 1989, LAGOS, NIGERIA

12 killed and a player died on the field during a World Cup tie between Nigeria and Angola. Nigerian winger Sam Okwaaraji collapsed from exhaustion in the 82nd minute.

26 - JULY 1990, MOGADISHU

7 killed and 18 injured after President Mohammed Siad Barre’s bodyguards opened fire to quell a disturbance.

27 - JANUARY 1991, ORKNEY, TRANSVAAL

40 killed and 50 injured in South Africa’s worst sports disaster. A refereeing decision triggered violence and a stampede during a pre-season ‘friendly’ between arch rivals Kaizer Chiefs and Orlando Pirates.

28 - JULY 1991, NAIROBI, KENYA

1 fan killed and 24 injured in a stampede during an African Nations Cup qualifier between Kenya and Mozambique.

29 - MAY 1992, BASTIA, CORSICA

15 die when a temporary stand at the Furiani Stadium collapsed just before kick-off at the French Cup semi-final between Bastia and Marseille.

30 - JULY 1992, RIO DE JANEIRO, BRAZIL

50 injured after falling five metres from the upper tier at the Maracana Stadium when part of the fencing gave way before a National Championship match between Flamenco and Botafogo.

31 - MAY 1994, MONROVIA, LIBERIA

2 killed and 26 injured when a rail broke at the Samuel Doe Stadium after Liberia’s 1-0 defeat of Togo in the first leg qualifier of an African Nations Cup qualifier.

32 - APRIL 1995, FREETOWN, SIERRA LEONE

40 injured as the main gate collapsed on fans scrambling for tickets outside the main stadium.

33 - JUNE 1996, LUSAKA, ZAMBIA

9 killed and 78 injured during a stampede following Zambia’s victory over Sudan in a World Cup qualifier.

34 - OCTOBER 1996, GUATEMALA CITY, GUATEMALA

81 killed and 147 seriously injured by crushing one hour before the Guatemala versus Costa Rica World Cup tie when an estimated 60,000 entered the Stadio Meteo Flores in respect of which only 45,000 tickets had been printed. Forged tickets and cash-in-hand bribery suspected.

35 - APRIL 1998, ZIMBABWE

4 killed in a stampede trying to get into a packed stadium for a free match.

36 - JANUARY 1999, ALEXANDRIA, EGYPT

8 killed and 13 injured after 25,000 fans pushed and shoved to get into Alexandria Stadium.

37 - JULY 2000, HARARE, ZIMBABWE

13 killed in a stampede when police fired tear gas into a 60,000 crowd after bottles and other missiles were thrown on to the pitch during the World Cup qualifier between Zimbabwe and South Africa. The incident happened 8 minutes from time when South Africa went two goals ahead.

38 - DECEMBER 2000, BRAZIL

150 injured when part of the perimeter fence around the pitch collapsed in the Sao Januario Stadium, Brazil, 23 minutes into the second leg of the Joao Havelange Cup Final between Vasc0 Da Gama and Sao Caetano.

39 - APRIL 2001, SOUTH AFRICA

43 killed and hundred injured in a stampede at a match between Orlando Pirates and Kaiser Chiefs at Ellis Park Stadium, Johannesburgh when 80,000 filled a 60,000 stadium with 15,000 still locked outside.

40 - APRIL 2001, CONGO

7 killed and 51 injured in crushing accident after police fired tear gas to quell fans at a match between Lupopo and Mazembe.

41 - MAY 2001, SARI, IRAN

2 killed and over 300 injured when 30,000 crammed into a 10,000 capacity stadium to watch a match between Pirouzi and Shamushak in the Mottaqi Stadium. Part of a roof collapsed when metal awnings gave way under the weight of spectators perched on top.

42 - MAY 2001, ACCRA, GHANA

137 killed and hundreds injured in a stampede when police fired tear gas on fans who were throwing bottles and chairs onto the field at a match between Accra and Asante.

Interesting to note that not a single one of the above incidents came about as a result of people standing in seated areas.

Also very interesting to note some of the disasters which were caused by actions which seem acceptable to Stewards and Police on a weekly basis (people leaving early or rushing forward to celebrate a goal).

Quite scary the number of disasters that were caused by over zealous/heavy handed policing which resulted in crowd reaction/panic.

[+Gringo]

..and here's another..

BBC article

[Guest kcj]

Well I'm with the 'stand and be counted' brigade!  It has crossed my mind many, many times at matches about what would happen if everyone just damned well stood up - it's not a public order offence is it??  It's not actually a criminal act is it??  Though you'd think it was they way people are dealt with at matches - ridiculous.

We probably all know that this very issue is being discussed at other clubs around Scotland right now so let's just hope that the ground swell of public opinion - that us guys - is listened to.  It goes without saying that we're the people dippin our hands in our pockets to pay for the privilege, so why don't we tell them what we expect?

We expect to be provided with a standing area at the Tulloch....we're not the only fans in Scotland asking the same of their clubs and just imagine, ICT could lead the way.  Come on SPL, get yir finger out and get yir act together. 

[Guest CaleyJaggy]

Scotland v France last year, pretty much everyone in the stadium bar the prawn sandwhich brigade stood for the entire 90 mins.  Not one person was ejected for standing.

[Flower]

It has now been a month since fans of ICT were thrown out of the ground for the audacity to stand while they were singing.

We, the fans, were promised swift action and were to be informed of the remedial action to be carried out by the club and the Supporters Trust.

Does the club think that if they say and do nothing then the problem will go away.

The supporters trust appears to be no better in that they promised a meeting to discuss the issue. I am still waiting.

All in all it appears that supporters of ICT do not matter to the club or the trust.

It is pathetic but then I should have known that this is what would have happened.

[Scotty]

We, the fans, were promised swift action and were to be informed of the remedial action to be carried out by the club and the Supporters Trust.

Does the club think that if they say and do nothing then the problem will go away.

As predicted !!!!! its the standard procedure !!!

[strathyjags]

not suprising,the club arent intrested about fans complaints,look at the flag epsidoe and the blackie chants why bother

[jamie ictfc]

im not getting a season tocket till i know where im getting it...........singing section or not??

We need 2 know soon!

[CaleyD]

Have merged these topics to try and keep much of the discussion in one place.

Despite promises that the matter would not be (or allowed to be) swept under the carpet, the longer it drags on without proper answers, the more it seems that this is what is happening.

I envisage the next excuse being that it is the closed season and people are on well earned holidays (cough) etc etc.