Butchers signings: Is it just me who thinks this, there is not one of these guys I had ever heard of never mind seen play and what is Butcher up to?, not a single Scot amongst them!!!.

Isn?t he the assistant Scotland coach, what sort of message does this send out to other managers?. With 300 Scottish players currently unemployed its not great example and surely there must be a few scots who could do the biz.

Of those signed I don?t see anything we did?nt have before. Players binned include Vigurs, Woods, Zanders and Mihadjuks all as good if not better than those brought in. I think his priority has been simply to the replace the last vestiges of the previous managers team regardless of ability.

Also he?s reported in the P&J saying his squad is now a bit too big and it needs trimming back, so who is for the dunt, all the local lads I presume?.

After todays performance its clear its time to change things. Ross Tokely should be back in next week hopefully for Bulvitus, Richard Hastings to replace Lionel and replace Stratford and Eagle by bringing in a midfielder like Dale Gillespie who can actually pass a ball and take on a shot at goal and bring in Duncan for experience.

Having made all these new signings its clear that Butcher has not addressed the teams biggest weakness, which is our back four. Once again we leaked goals through poor defending.

With two days of the transfer window left its worrying to think that it is rumoured that his priority is a 16 year old forward!!!.

Its sad but I cannot see us getting promoted for sometime.

I'm not disappoint in Butcher at all. and I'm a long way from thinking his appointment was a mistake or that any consideration should be given to replacing him.

Look at just how fecked up this team was when he took over and how he managed to lift them and at least give us a fighting chance of survival last season. He then had to do the job all over again to lift the guys after relegation whilst working with a signing remit that made wages available but gave him nothing for signing fees meaning he had to find players for free.

This is one bad game, and the fact that (given all of the above) we've managed to put together a squad who have managed to compete with Dunfermline, Ayr and Dundee is not bad going IMO.

What we witnessed yesterday is what Brewster was dishing up week after week and yet we have the very same people who were insistent that we give Brewster chance after chance now hitting the panic button and asking for Butchers head?

I think that (some) of the moaning has more to do with sending some kind of misguided "get it up you" message to those who supported the sacking of Brewster than it is about what Butcher is or is not doing....it's as if some so called fans are almost willing disaster upon us this season to prove some kind of point!!!

What has Brewster got do with my original post? and no I'm not asking for Butchers head. The stated aim is for promotion back up to the SPL, the current strategy is highly unlikely to achieve this aim. We lack the necessary experience both on and off the field.

Its ridiculous these threads "Dissapointed in Butcher " Should Butcher stay or go " FFS get a grip people :D

Only the 4th game of the season too !!

Remember the man can only work with what he's got & we do have a suspension & injurys

As for the "New members " who've come on here to slag us off lets just ignore those gypo's they are obviously very sad bored people who have nothing better to do

Mon ICT onwards & upwards :clown2: :wave02: ;)

Advised to place my thought on this thread as the thread it was on has now been closed. Twice in a day at my age !!

For all those of a hopeful, positive nature who keep telling us it'll all be fine, give it time etc, can you please provide me with a single piece of evidence to back up your claims and I will be more than happy to consider it?

TB and MM between them have the managerial pedigree of Mike Basset. From Coventry, Sunderland, Brentrford, Sydney, Swindon, Motherwell (MM not TB) their records are shocking and provide me with no comfort for the battle ahead. Vigurs and Wood gone! Conference players as replacements on much higher wages! Pavels to RB and Tokes to CB at a crucial time of the season! Lionel not Dick! All decisions taken by our managerial team alone. Why?

Will keep repeating myself until someone can gove me any crumb of comfort. It's an age thing.

As I've said already......

I'm not disappoint in Butcher at all. and I'm a long way from thinking his appointment was a mistake or that any consideration should be given to replacing him.

Look at just how fecked up this team was when he took over and how he managed to lift them and at least give us a fighting chance of survival last season. He then had to do the job all over again to lift the guys after relegation whilst working with a signing remit that made wages available but gave him nothing for signing fees meaning he had to find players for free.

This is one bad game, and the fact that (given all of the above) we've managed to put together a squad who have managed to compete with Dunfermline, Ayr and Dundee is not bad going IMO.

What we witnessed yesterday is what Brewster was dishing up week after week and yet we have the very same people who were insistent that we give Brewster chance after chance now hitting the panic button and asking for Butchers head?

I think that (some) of the moaning has more to do with sending some kind of misguided "get it up you" message to those who supported the sacking of Brewster than it is about what Butcher is or is not doing....it's as if some so called fans are almost willing disaster upon us this season to prove some kind of point!!!

Looking over the last few weeks games (yesterday aside) I don't see any losses!!!

We've won a game we should have drawn, drawn a game we should have won and drawn a game where we probably weren't expecting much more (if anything)....and we're still in both cups.

You'll forgive me if I'm struggling to see whatever point it is you're trying to make.

Advised to place my thought on this thread as the thread it was on has now been closed. Twice in a day at my age !!

For all those of a hopeful, positive nature who keep telling us it'll all be fine, give it time etc, can you please provide me with a single piece of evidence to back up your claims and I will be more than happy to consider it?

TB and MM between them have the managerial pedigree of Mike Basset. From Coventry, Sunderland, Brentrford, Sydney, Swindon, Motherwell (MM not TB) their records are shocking and provide me with no comfort for the battle ahead. Vigurs and Wood gone! Conference players as replacements on much higher wages! Pavels to RB and Tokes to CB at a crucial time of the season! Lionel not Dick! All decisions taken by our managerial team alone. Why?

Will keep repeating myself until someone can gove me any crumb of comfort. It's an age thing.

The 2-2 draw away to Dundee. That is more than enough evidence that we have a decent team

The 1-0 away win against Dunfermline. I dont care what anybody says about it being jammy. That is what good teams do. Hold steady when under pressure and hit them on the counter. We did it to perfection IMO

They should be enough to show that we are more than a match for the teams in the division. We will always have an off day like any other team.

As I've said already......

I'm not disappoint in Butcher at all. and I'm a long way from thinking his appointment was a mistake or that any consideration should be given to replacing him.

Look at just how fecked up this team was when he took over and how he managed to lift them and at least give us a fighting chance of survival last season. He then had to do the job all over again to lift the guys after relegation whilst working with a signing remit that made wages available but gave him nothing for signing fees meaning he had to find players for free.

This is one bad game, and the fact that (given all of the above) we've managed to put together a squad who have managed to compete with Dunfermline, Ayr and Dundee is not bad going IMO.

What we witnessed yesterday is what Brewster was dishing up week after week and yet we have the very same people who were insistent that we give Brewster chance after chance now hitting the panic button and asking for Butchers head?

I think that (some) of the moaning has more to do with sending some kind of misguided "get it up you" message to those who supported the sacking of Brewster than it is about what Butcher is or is not doing....it's as if some so called fans are almost willing disaster upon us this season to prove some kind of point!!!

Looking over the last few weeks games (yesterday aside) I don't see any losses!!!

We've won a game we should have drawn, drawn a game we should have won and drawn a game where we probably weren't expecting much more (if anything)....and we're still in both cups.

You'll forgive me if I'm struggling to see whatever point it is you're trying to make.

CD, appreciate your thoughts but what I am trying to get to is what is the basis for this confidence in TB/MM? Can anyone give real examples of where they have delivered with any of the clubs they have been involved with in a coaching/managerial capacity? Do they have a history of signing little known players and blending them into an effective team unit?

As I've said already......

I'm not disappoint in Butcher at all. and I'm a long way from thinking his appointment was a mistake or that any consideration should be given to replacing him.

Look at just how fecked up this team was when he took over and how he managed to lift them and at least give us a fighting chance of survival last season. He then had to do the job all over again to lift the guys after relegation whilst working with a signing remit that made wages available but gave him nothing for signing fees meaning he had to find players for free.

This is one bad game, and the fact that (given all of the above) we've managed to put together a squad who have managed to compete with Dunfermline, Ayr and Dundee is not bad going IMO.

What we witnessed yesterday is what Brewster was dishing up week after week and yet we have the very same people who were insistent that we give Brewster chance after chance now hitting the panic button and asking for Butchers head?

I think that (some) of the moaning has more to do with sending some kind of misguided "get it up you" message to those who supported the sacking of Brewster than it is about what Butcher is or is not doing....it's as if some so called fans are almost willing disaster upon us this season to prove some kind of point!!!

Looking over the last few weeks games (yesterday aside) I don't see any losses!!!

We've won a game we should have drawn, drawn a game we should have won and drawn a game where we probably weren't expecting much more (if anything)....and we're still in both cups.

You'll forgive me if I'm struggling to see whatever point it is you're trying to make.

CD, appreciate your thoughts but what I am trying to get to is what is the basis for this confidence in TB/MM? Can anyone give real examples of where they have delivered with any of the clubs they have been involved with in a coaching/managerial capacity? Do they have a history of signing little known players and blending them into an effective team unit?

They did well at Motherwell eventually and I will give apart from that they have been crap but where was the experience for Steve Patterson, John Robertson, Craig Brewster and Charlie Christie. They didnt have any at all so it is good that we have got people who have the experince and hopfully they have learned from their mistakes

Having a Financial Services background I'm a great believer in the strap line that points out to people that "past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results". I will also only judge Butcher on what he has done since coming to us, and as far as I can see he's done pretty well with what he's been given to work with.

Part of the problem we have at the moment is that the club have filled the fans heads with this "We'll bounce straight back" promise, but we've not seen any real evidence that they are supporting that. Our board are making promises that they are expecting other people to take responsibility and liability for.

As I said, given the fact Butcher was given no transfer money, only a wage budget, is proof positive that those making the promises aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is....instead they're driving this club towards financial disaster with half ass'd attempts at going for promotion and the kind of wishful thinking that saw us relegated in the first place.....and it's Butcher and the players who will carry the can if that doesn't happen.

As it happens, I do think Butcher has amassed a squad capable of deliver....that confidence comes from my being a fan and it being my place to have confidence in the manager and players until such time as they prove otherwise....and one bad game/result doesn't prove otherwise. If Butcher starts making the same mistakes week after week and the players continue to perform below what I think they are capable off then that will be the time to criticise....but we're only 4 games into the season in what is an historically tight division where nobody is running away with it and where we're not cast adrift from the top so I see absolutely no reason for the hysteria and panic.

Having a Financial Services background I'm a great believer in the strap line that points out to people that "past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results". I will also only judge Butcher on what he has done since coming to us, and as far as I can see he's done pretty well with what he's been given to work with.

Part of the problem we have at the moment is that the club have filled the fans heads with this "We'll bounce straight back" promise, but we've not seen any real evidence that they are supporting that. Our board are making promises that they are expecting other people to take responsibility and liability for.

As I said, given the fact Butcher was given no transfer money, only a wage budget, is proof positive that those making the promises aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is....instead they're driving this club towards financial disaster with half ass'd attempts at going for promotion and the kind of wishful thinking that saw us relegated in the first place.....and it's Butcher and the players who will carry the can if that doesn't happen.

As it happens, I do think Butcher has amassed a squad capable of deliver....that confidence comes from my being a fan and it being my place to have confidence in the manager and players until such time as they prove otherwise....and one bad game/result doesn't prove otherwise. If Butcher starts making the same mistakes week after week and the players continue to perform below what I think they are capable off then that will be the time to criticise....but we're only 4 games into the season in what is an historically tight division where nobody is running away with it and where we're not cast adrift from the top so I see absolutely no reason for the hysteria and panic.

CD my concerns are far more elementary, not budget dependent or based on expectations but simply on the ability of our mangement team to judge a player, select a team, train a squad and more fundamentally their desire to do so.

Boardroom nor budget had anything to do with the release of Vigurs or Wood. They were purely football decisions by TB and MM. Nobody else carries any of the responsibility for the consequences. Signing what, based on what I have viewed to date, I would deem to be inferior players as replacements with additional costs such as relocation, accomodation and what I understand to be, higher wages.

Tactical decisions such as the very controversial treatment of Pavels at the end of last season and his switching with Tokes when recalled could be viewed as costly enough to put us down. I have yet to find anyone with any understanding of the game who sees/saw any nerit in theis decision. This again is nothing to do with the boardroom nor budget, purely a football decision.

Final example is LDZ, who when signed for the club was the subject of much ridicule by many, even though at that time he was viewed as a short term squad fix. Now, awarded a new deal by TB and MM he is viewed as the first pick LB by TB and MM, ahead of Dick and Roy despite having a wealth of top flight/division 1 experience between them and in Dick's case international recognition. How a defender of such stature as TB fails to see the catalogue of errors that LDZ is is beyond me and as my daughter put it, it doesn't matter how many nutmegs or goal line clearances he performs if he costs us two goals a game! This again is nothing to do with the boardroom nor budget, purely a football choice.

Esson, dropped for Ike at a crucial time, I could go on.

I worry we are too ready to offer excuses for TB and MM because of their playing stature and Butcher's undoubted media skill. For the record, I do not make this judgement based on one game having shown concern which is well documented on this site from day one.

Where we can point the finger is the decision to appoint TB being taken by the board room and that as a consequence, after what I believe is the most humiliating defeat I have witnessed as a punter at TCS, we have no manager in attendance. This is the consequence of a board room decision.

Having a Financial Services background I'm a great believer in the strap line that points out to people that "past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results". I will also only judge Butcher on what he has done since coming to us, and as far as I can see he's done pretty well with what he's been given to work with.

Part of the problem we have at the moment is that the club have filled the fans heads with this "We'll bounce straight back" promise, but we've not seen any real evidence that they are supporting that. Our board are making promises that they are expecting other people to take responsibility and liability for.

As I said, given the fact Butcher was given no transfer money, only a wage budget, is proof positive that those making the promises aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is....instead they're driving this club towards financial disaster with half ass'd attempts at going for promotion and the kind of wishful thinking that saw us relegated in the first place.....and it's Butcher and the players who will carry the can if that doesn't happen.

As it happens, I do think Butcher has amassed a squad capable of deliver....that confidence comes from my being a fan and it being my place to have confidence in the manager and players until such time as they prove otherwise....and one bad game/result doesn't prove otherwise. If Butcher starts making the same mistakes week after week and the players continue to perform below what I think they are capable off then that will be the time to criticise....but we're only 4 games into the season in what is an historically tight division where nobody is running away with it and where we're not cast adrift from the top so I see absolutely no reason for the hysteria and panic.

So he has done well has he, relegation says it all, he had chances to keep us up but quite frankly blew it good style. Since then he has failed to identify the squads deficiencies and make signings to address these failings, instaed he has concentrated on signing unexperienced and untested youngsters. His wage budget could have been spent more wisely.

Very good quality debate going on here.... Trust no one such as Alex will come along and close this thread down!

I agree completely with Sorted here...

Find myself continually surprised these days at the line now taken by CD, who I can well remember was one of this club's most vociferous critics not so long ago.

Having a Financial Services background I'm a great believer in the strap line that points out to people that "past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results". I will also only judge Butcher on what he has done since coming to us, and as far as I can see he's done pretty well with what he's been given to work with.

Part of the problem we have at the moment is that the club have filled the fans heads with this "We'll bounce straight back" promise, but we've not seen any real evidence that they are supporting that. Our board are making promises that they are expecting other people to take responsibility and liability for.

As I said, given the fact Butcher was given no transfer money, only a wage budget, is proof positive that those making the promises aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is....instead they're driving this club towards financial disaster with half ass'd attempts at going for promotion and the kind of wishful thinking that saw us relegated in the first place.....and it's Butcher and the players who will carry the can if that doesn't happen.

As it happens, I do think Butcher has amassed a squad capable of deliver....that confidence comes from my being a fan and it being my place to have confidence in the manager and players until such time as they prove otherwise....and one bad game/result doesn't prove otherwise. If Butcher starts making the same mistakes week after week and the players continue to perform below what I think they are capable off then that will be the time to criticise....but we're only 4 games into the season in what is an historically tight division where nobody is running away with it and where we're not cast adrift from the top so I see absolutely no reason for the hysteria and panic.

So he has done well has he, relegation says it all, he had chances to keep us up but quite frankly blew it good style. Since then he has failed to identify the squads deficiencies and make signings to address these failings, instaed he has concentrated on signing unexperienced and untested youngsters. His wage budget could have been spent more wisely.

What experienced players could we get for free though? Robbie Winters maybe.

I cant think of anyone else for free that is experienced

Having a Financial Services background I'm a great believer in the strap line that points out to people that "past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results". I will also only judge Butcher on what he has done since coming to us, and as far as I can see he's done pretty well with what he's been given to work with.

Part of the problem we have at the moment is that the club have filled the fans heads with this "We'll bounce straight back" promise, but we've not seen any real evidence that they are supporting that. Our board are making promises that they are expecting other people to take responsibility and liability for.

As I said, given the fact Butcher was given no transfer money, only a wage budget, is proof positive that those making the promises aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is....instead they're driving this club towards financial disaster with half ass'd attempts at going for promotion and the kind of wishful thinking that saw us relegated in the first place.....and it's Butcher and the players who will carry the can if that doesn't happen.

As it happens, I do think Butcher has amassed a squad capable of deliver....that confidence comes from my being a fan and it being my place to have confidence in the manager and players until such time as they prove otherwise....and one bad game/result doesn't prove otherwise. If Butcher starts making the same mistakes week after week and the players continue to perform below what I think they are capable off then that will be the time to criticise....but we're only 4 games into the season in what is an historically tight division where nobody is running away with it and where we're not cast adrift from the top so I see absolutely no reason for the hysteria and panic.

So he has done well has he, relegation says it all, he had chances to keep us up but quite frankly blew it good style. Since then he has failed to identify the squads deficiencies and make signings to address these failings, instaed he has concentrated on signing unexperienced and untested youngsters. His wage budget could have been spent more wisely.

What experienced players could we get for free though? Robbie Winters maybe.

I cant think of anyone else for free that is experienced

He wouldn't have had to sign so many if he hadn't let two like Vigurs and Wood go!! A considerable amount of TB's problems are self inflicted as I see it.

Edited August 30, 200916 yr by Sorted

Having a Financial Services background I'm a great believer in the strap line that points out to people that "past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results". I will also only judge Butcher on what he has done since coming to us, and as far as I can see he's done pretty well with what he's been given to work with.

Part of the problem we have at the moment is that the club have filled the fans heads with this "We'll bounce straight back" promise, but we've not seen any real evidence that they are supporting that. Our board are making promises that they are expecting other people to take responsibility and liability for.

As I said, given the fact Butcher was given no transfer money, only a wage budget, is proof positive that those making the promises aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is....instead they're driving this club towards financial disaster with half ass'd attempts at going for promotion and the kind of wishful thinking that saw us relegated in the first place.....and it's Butcher and the players who will carry the can if that doesn't happen.

As it happens, I do think Butcher has amassed a squad capable of deliver....that confidence comes from my being a fan and it being my place to have confidence in the manager and players until such time as they prove otherwise....and one bad game/result doesn't prove otherwise. If Butcher starts making the same mistakes week after week and the players continue to perform below what I think they are capable off then that will be the time to criticise....but we're only 4 games into the season in what is an historically tight division where nobody is running away with it and where we're not cast adrift from the top so I see absolutely no reason for the hysteria and panic.

So he has done well has he, relegation says it all, he had chances to keep us up but quite frankly blew it good style. Since then he has failed to identify the squads deficiencies and make signings to address these failings, instaed he has concentrated on signing unexperienced and untested youngsters. His wage budget could have been spent more wisely.

What experienced players could we get for free though? Robbie Winters maybe.

I cant think of anyone else for free that is experienced

He wouldn't have had to sign so many if he hadn't let two like Vigurs and Wood go!! A considerable amount of TB's problems are self inflicted as I see it.

I did think letting those 2 go was a strange decision. It came back to bit us in the backside a bit

Exactly a couple of experienced players and less of the unexperienced and retained the services of known talent.

Very good quality debate going on here.... Trust no one such as Alex will come along and close this thread down!

I agree completely with Sorted here...

Find myself continually surprised these days at the line now taken by CD, who I can well remember was one of this club's most vociferous critics not so long ago.

Thanks for the support JB.

Surely your not suggesting that CD has now become a pillar of the establishment are you? ;)

Now I better stop :angry05: as I have been advised that this is inappropriate behaviour and will result in having your thread closed!

Edited August 30, 200916 yr by Sorted

He wouldn't have had to sign so many if he hadn't let two like Vigurs and Wood go!! A considerable amount of TB's problems are self inflicted as I see it.

Absolutely spot on, Sorted. As you will have seen in my comments in post no. 46 of this thread, I find myself in agreement with most of what you say in relation to Butcher's performance so far, and track record at other clubs. I think many of our fellow fans are too caught up in the general hype that surrounds him, stemming from his undoubted successful playing days. There's no doubt he has charisma. He just needs to show more management nous before he loses the goodwill of his flock of 'he can do no wrong' followers.

Edited August 30, 200916 yr by Caley Mad In Berks

I'm not offering any excuses, just calling it as I see it.

We can all claim this that and the next thing about players being let go and the reasons. You say it was footballing reasons, as I understand it some were demanding wages that we weren't willing to pay....neither of us can prove our statements, so no point arguing them.

We are where we are, last season is done with and we can't wind the clock back. One more goal last season and we Butcher would be hailed a hero, but being typical fickle fans (much like any other club) he's seen as some kind of villain in the eyes of some.

I've always claimed that any Manager should be allowed to succeed or fail by his own hand. ICT's failure last season was not of TB's making...ok, so with hindsight we maybe should have done some things differently, but with hindsight we might also have got rid of Brewster long before we did and given the new Manager more time/opportunity to save us from relegation....que sera.

It still baffles me that someone who was so keen to give Brewster an extended stay of execution would be so quick to try and poison people against the current incumbent. You cite Butchers managerial record as a reason to have got shot, but the very same reasons were given for not re-appointing Brewster...and in fact they still stand good to this day....whys should Brewster have been given a chance last season...after proving unable to turn things around, and Butcher, who has done a lot to turn things around, not be afforded the same courtesy?

Was it not you who started a thread on the site Archives and the content of them and pointed out how fickle fans could be etc? Perhaps worth taking another crawl through them to remind yourself of just how much you were condemning others for doing exactly what you seem to be doing now???

Surely your not suggesting that CD has now become a pillar of the establishment are you? :angry05:

I'm not sure about this.

I do feel something strange is taking place here. Seems like he's been got at in some mysterious and sinister way.

Did you ever see the film The Stepford Wives?

He wouldn't have had to sign so many if he hadn't let two like Vigurs and Wood go!! A considerable amount of TB's problems are self inflicted as I see it.

Absolutely spot on, Sorted. As you will have seen in my comments in post no. 46 of this thread, I find myself in agreement with most of what you say in relation to Butcher's performance so far, and track record at other clubs. I think many of our fellow fans are too caught up in the general hype that surrounds him, stemming from his undoubted successful playing days. There's no doubt he has charisma. He just needs to show more management nounce before he loses the goodwill of his flock of 'he can do no wrong' followers.

Is there anything wrong in having faith in the man in charge though? Thats what its about. Getting behind the team through thick and thin players and staff. After 4 games into the league season surely you can blame people for wanting to give Butcher a chance to prove that he can get us back into the SPL

Who cares what he did in the past it is what he does for us now. As I stated in a previous post which never got a reply. Where was the experience for Patterson, Robertson, Brewster and Christie. I know for certain there was none for all except Patterson. He might not of had any either but I dont really know

Very good quality debate going on here.... Trust no one such as Alex will come along and close this thread down!

I agree completely with Sorted here...

Find myself continually surprised these days at the line now taken by CD, who I can well remember was one of this club's most vociferous critics not so long ago.

I remember the days when you actually contributed something to these forums other than the constant stirring you are prone to these days.

My situation has changes somewhat in the past 6 months or so, and whilst I might not be as vocal about things on the forums you can be assured my opinions on some things have not changed in the slightest....I just have more efficient means of getting my views in front of the people that I think need to be hearing them.

Let's also not forget that the club is now in a very different situation that it was when in the SPL. Some of the issues have gone as a result of relegation and our current financial situation makes other issues/demands insignificant in the grand scale of things.

You'll still find criticism where I think it's due (in this very thread in fact), so you can take your snide remarks and shove them where the sun don't shine.

The spectators in the North Stand were shocking yesterday.

The home spectators need to get real.

Win the league, no real cash investment, no time for new signings to gel. I can understand why people were booing yesterday but I was disappointed with people booing LDZ. Hardly encouraging from his perspective?

At least someone is on the same page as me :D

What experienced players could we get for free though? Robbie Winters maybe.

I cant think of anyone else for free that is experienced

He had a trial for Ayr United. They never followed up their interest.

I'm not offering any excuses, just calling it as I see it.

We can all claim this that and the next thing about players being let go and the reasons. You say it was footballing reasons, as I understand it some were demanding wages that we weren't willing to pay....neither of us can prove our statements, so no point arguing them.

We are where we are, last season is done with and we can't wind the clock back. One more goal last season and we Butcher would be hailed a hero, but being typical fickle fans (much like any other club) he's seen as some kind of villain in the eyes of some.

I've always claimed that any Manager should be allowed to succeed or fail by his own hand. ICT's failure last season was not of TB's making...ok, so with hindsight we maybe should have done some things differently, but with hindsight we might also have got rid of Brewster long before we did and given the new Manager more time/opportunity to save us from relegation....que sera.

It still baffles me that someone who was so keen to give Brewster an extended stay of execution would be so quick to try and poison people against the current incumbent. You cite Butchers managerial record as a reason to have got shot, but the very same reasons were given for not re-appointing Brewster...and in fact they still stand good to this day....whys should Brewster have been given a chance last season...after proving unable to turn things around, and Butcher, who has done a lot to turn things around, not be afforded the same courtesy?

Was it not you who started a thread on the site Archives and the content of them and pointed out how fickle fans could be etc? Perhaps worth taking another crawl through them to remind yourself of just how much you were condemning others for doing exactly what you seem to be doing now???

CD your point is very valid regarding loyalty and giving people a chance. You will see quite clearly that at no point in any post did I mention their removal, dismissal or similar. I do not believe this is correct for our club.

With regard to CB being given a chance, if I recall correctly, he was afforded the opportunity to sign Fillepe, Pavels and Byrne then sacked a fortnight or so later. Quality. Also aside from letting two of our best prospects go for free, what has TB down to turn things round?

The point I have been trying to make and will continue to make is he and MM are not the Messiah and JTB. They are at best good football people with a reasonable grasp for the game, at worst incompetent coaches who belong on the TV or elsewhere. The adulation and sycophantic hero worship afforded TB in particular is repugnant when compared to the abuse dished out to his predecessor. And why? Because he played 300 games for England with a stupid bandage on? Because he helped Rangers win nine in a row? Because he's a great after dinner speaker? I want a good coach.

I will only judge TB on what I see on the pitch not what he achieved as a player. His managerial record I have documented and aside for picking up on the good work that Billy Davies started at M'well and keeping it going, it is shocking. Disposing of two young guys like Vigs and Woody does not help. His treatment of Dale Gillespie was also shoddy at best.

Finally, I am very, very uncomfortable with this dual role he occupies as I see absolutely no benefit for ICT and plenty downside.

I'm not offering any excuses, just calling it as I see it.

We can all claim this that and the next thing about players being let go and the reasons. You say it was footballing reasons, as I understand it some were demanding wages that we weren't willing to pay....neither of us can prove our statements, so no point arguing them.

We are where we are, last season is done with and we can't wind the clock back. One more goal last season and we Butcher would be hailed a hero, but being typical fickle fans (much like any other club) he's seen as some kind of villain in the eyes of some.

I've always claimed that any Manager should be allowed to succeed or fail by his own hand. ICT's failure last season was not of TB's making...ok, so with hindsight we maybe should have done some things differently, but with hindsight we might also have got rid of Brewster long before we did and given the new Manager more time/opportunity to save us from relegation....que sera.

It still baffles me that someone who was so keen to give Brewster an extended stay of execution would be so quick to try and poison people against the current incumbent. You cite Butchers managerial record as a reason to have got shot, but the very same reasons were given for not re-appointing Brewster...and in fact they still stand good to this day....whys should Brewster have been given a chance last season...after proving unable to turn things around, and Butcher, who has done a lot to turn things around, not be afforded the same courtesy?

Was it not you who started a thread on the site Archives and the content of them and pointed out how fickle fans could be etc? Perhaps worth taking another crawl through them to remind yourself of just how much you were condemning others for doing exactly what you seem to be doing now???

CD your point is very valid regarding loyalty and giving people a chance. You will see quite clearly that at no point in any post did I mention their removal, dismissal or similar. I do not believe this is correct for our club.

With regard to CB being given a chance, if I recall correctly, he was afforded the opportunity to sign Fillepe, Pavels and Byrne then sacked a fortnight or so later. Quality. Also aside from letting two of our best prospects go for free, what has TB down to turn things round?

The point I have been trying to make and will continue to make is he and MM are not the Messiah and JTB. They are at best good football people with a reasonable grasp for the game, at worst incompetent coaches who belong on the TV or elsewhere. The adulation and sycophantic hero worship afforded TB in particular is repugnant when compared to the abuse dished out to his predecessor. And why? Because he played 300 games for England with a stupid bandage on? Because he helped Rangers win nine in a row? Because he's a great after dinner speaker? I want a good coach.

I will only judge TB on what I see on the pitch not what he achieved as a player. His managerial record I have documented and aside for picking up on the good work that Billy Davies started at M'well and keeping it going, it is shocking. Disposing of two young guys like Vigs and Woody does not help. His treatment of Dale Gillespie was also shoddy at best.

Finally, I am very, very uncomfortable with this dual role he occupies as I see absolutely no benefit for ICT and plenty downside.

He wont have the dual role after the next 2 scotland games.

I dont believe Butcher is the messiah but its not going to stop me getting 100% behind him for now. If by January we are lying in mid table with no hope of promotion then by all means get rid of him and all the criticsm that had been said today and yesterday will have been justified but after only 4 league games and 1 defeat no matter what anybody thinks about the other results we cant start getting on his back just yet. We need to give him a proper chance this season.

He overturned a 7 point gap (or was it 4 im not sure) last season and yes we did throw it away in the last 3 games but would we have been in the same position with Brewster I dont think so. I reckon we would have been well off the pace. Butcher did the best to solve a problem that was left to late IMO

I understand some of the complaints you have with Vigiurs and Wood but maybe something went on behind the scenes. We will probably never find out

What happened between Butcher and Dale as well?

I appreciate where your coming from, I just don't agree with it or some of the justification for it.

Football is all about idolising players/managers etc....it's what drives the passion, builds the atmosphere and pushes people on to perform at their very best. For that reason I don't see any problem with people getting a little excited over Butcher (or any of the players). It's part and partial of the game and has been since Charlie Bannerman was a boy.

Yes, fans can be fickle, but that's part and partial of the whole football scene. Brewster was ripping the heart out of the team, and as a result, the fans, and I think that's why people turned on him so vociferously....that was my own personal "biggie" against the guy (as manager). He did himself no favours on the PR front either.

Butcher can work the press, and his words alone will win round a lot of fans.....but surely that's a good thing, as the more people you have on side, the more support the team gets on matchday and the bigger the lift the supporters provide. It all helps, and whilst I don't think he should go without criticism when things don't go according to plan, we're looking at one (really) poor result here and a good few people seem to have totally lost the plot on the subject.