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What folk are saying is that we should not get too excited about a player whose only full time football has been with a club that finished 19th in the conference and who, incidentally, has actually not signed for us yet. Terry may have unearthed a real gem and I am sure that if he signs we will all wish him well. But I don't think it is being negative at all to suggest that those who appear to think that this signing will be our ticket to European glory should tone down their expectations. With regards to Tokely, he was 17 when he signed for us and we were in Division 3. There is no comparison. We are an SPL side and fans would like to think that one year we will have enough success to win a domestic trophy and get a shot at European football. Signing players from the lower reaches of the conference does not fill me with expectation that this success will come next season. That is not being negative, it is being realistic. The manager will sign who he signs. Hopefully the new signings and those already here will gel into a good unit which will help bring the fans in and we can build from there. I will support the team whatever it is but reserve the right to voice my views on this forum and elsewhere if I feel the manager is not making decisions which are in the best interest of the club. I think that's a positive thing to do.

I would have replied in the same vein as DoofersDad so I'll spare you all that again. Oddquine, look, I know there's moaners on here but I've also been accused of being a happy clapper at times so I must be getting something right. By all means have a go at the downright negative posters but people like me have sincerely held views and I try to justify my (realistic) views by what I've seen on the park, week in, week out. We pay our money and we have genuine concerns. Instead of lumping us all together in your lectures which are getting longer each time, and consist mainly of asking us to have faith and everything will be fine, or accusing an entire support of being backward looking - try convincing me using football reasons. Mind you that could be difficult if you say you never saw Ross Tokely play any of his 490 matches? By extension you've hardly if ever seen ICT either then. Big problem here, I think the point you're missing is so obvious. It's about more than talent. Pro football is a trade, just like plumbing or joinery. Apprentices serve their time and then are kept on or leave to find another club. Unless the player is an exceptional talent he will not play in the SPL at 17- most players are in their mid 20s. Ross debuted at 17 in div 3 and worked hard and continued to develop. Each time he has stepped up and continued to learn the game. So even if his legs have gone he has 7 years SPL experience. Compare him to Richard Hastings who at 17 was tipped for great things but seemed to stop developing about the age of 21 as many folk here will tell you. So as I said I will be delighted if Gary Warren proves people wrong at the age of 27 or whatever but I gave you plenty of examples where Butcher has got it wrong in the past. So it's nothing to do with the HL being as good as the BSBP. Although back in 96 when Ross signed for ICT, the HL select WAS capable of giving the English equivalent a game, it was an annual fixture. Nowadays it would be no contest I reckon.

One things for sure we are certainly in a dark place at this present moment, I'm going to sound like a happy clapper here but I think it's too early to press the panic button, yes I'm worried but not panicking yet We really have to wait and see what new players come in over the next eight weeks, by my reckoning we need at least seven new faces The pressure is on Terry to deliver this coming season and he needs to show us the fans a big improvement by Xmas because if not I think he will find himself going south on the A9 The situation reminds me of Custers last stand at the battle of the little bighorn, for terrys sake I hope it has a better outcome Dougal

Don't want to labour my point, however I don't feel the quality is the issue. TB has signed some good players but where are they? My issue is that by bringing in loanees and signings from English lower leagues is NOT providing the continuity and stability that the club so badly needs. Almost every topic raised has someone mention that the team ethic has gone. It will never return staffing the club with guys up here for a year's holiday or at best putting themselves in a shop window, albeit only a slightly bigger shop. I couldn't agree more - don't judge the man before he has kicked a ball. However I am no Mystic Meg, but if he turns out to be any good he'll be off after a year. If not so good he will follow Aldred and probably as quickly. I just see no building for the future just a stopgap for a season, also when I mentioned local I meant more Scotland rather than the Highlands alone. I would finish by asking one question to back up my point. Apart from Foran who is the longest serving of TB's signings left?

Wait and see what exactly? Courier article of 8th June? Though the position would depend on his value of his worth, ICT's abiity, or even willingness to pay it........and whether anybody else wants him. I believe blackie will be on everyone's wish list in Scotland this summer with the exception to Celtic. I can see him going to rangers if everything works out for them or a fairly decent English team, lower championship or high league 1. Wasn't on Heart's though, was he? Given the Courier article, doesn't look as if he has had many decent offers, else he'd not have been saying he'd consider any offer made to him by the club who couldn't afford Tokely. I'm being mischievious here...but I really don't understand the ICT fans obsession with the past and the eternal assuming their ducklings are everybody else's swans. Do you even know why he was released from Hearts? His wage demands were too much for them to afford so he was released. He is one of the best midfielders outwith the OF in the SPL so why wouldn't everyone fancy having him in their team. You love arguing for absolutely nothing....Do you even know who Ian Black is?

What does how long or why I support ICT have to do with anything? If you read my posts, I am pretty upfront with everything and you would already know. And there is a difference between how long anyone has supported ICT and how long people have been members of this forum. (just in case you are foolish enough to think that one equates to the other) , It's a fair point he makes. Some of us have seen ICT hundreds of times. We've seen it all before and we can see what's coming....... If you're not sure, it's got 10 letters and begins with R. Nope.....you can see what you think is coming, maybe even hope what is coming perhaps, so you can add "I told you so" to your sig and preen....but you can't see what is coming........particularly at this stage in preseason, any more than I or anyone else can. I'm an old-fashioned football supporter.......the kind who does support through thick and thin....guess spending all my formative years supporting the Can-Cans will do that to anyone. I'm the kind who assumes that a football manager isn't deliberately set on making a pigs ear of the next season (even if only because he knows that he is going to be hard pushed to get another decent job when sacked). I'm the kind of person who assumes that ( given the point in brackets above) the manager will do what he thinks is best for the team, given the financial restrictions he has to accommodate, and I'm the kind of person who will wait to see how that works out. I'm the kind of person who expects a minimum of 100% from the players, even if that produces nothing much, and will not accept anything less..why should they be exempted from the level of performance which keeps most of the rest of us in work? But, pre-season with not a game played, I don't assume that any player will not live up to my expectations and I don't form opinions from a level of no knowledge whatsoever. Given we are not even into the English transfer window yet, I see nothing coming but possibilities......but I am obviously not blessed with the same Crystal Ball gazing prophecy ability some of you seem to possess. I'm just what I call a realistic pessimist.....which is hoping for the best, and preparing myself mentally for the worst...been doing it all my life (but even then I have been bitten on the bum). But that's life! I don't see any problem with wondering about the make up of the team next season or thoughts on replacing players.....isn't that what the "Possible Transfer Targets" thread is all about....and the earlier "Who should stay and who should go", one.....and there is also the "Trialists" thread, and you could even add "Team for First Preseason Game" and likely more if I could be hacked off looking for them. Where I have my problems is whatever happens certain elements in this forum can't just accept what they can't change and hope for the best, and don't wait at least until some pre-season matches have been played before getting into carp and whine mode. ICT have signed a player nobody up here has ever seen play, and notwithstanding the fact that they know sod all about his abilities, we get remarks like Is this the standard of players we should be expecting from now on? Guess we'll have to wait and see what he's like. I won't be holding my breath ; I know he has financial restraints and has to scramble around to get players to come, but how does this guy get to 28 without making it at some point? I think it shows the trouble we are in that Gary is probably good enough to get a game for us at the arse end of the SPL. That's not the same as being good enough to cope in the SPL; OK so that's the squad/back up player signed. Who are we chasing to be the first choice?; I see a player who has been playing part time football until the age of 27 as a signing that might be for squad depth. I certainly won't be expecting him to walk into the team and i'd like a couple more players with a better CV at the club looking for a starting place but i will give him his chance to show what he can do. (that last almost succeeds in being pragmatic....but would have been more appropriate after seeing him play in at least one game.). There are players who have come to ICT from lower leagues, and with no ICT inherited ethos.....Ross Tokely for one, who did well...to which about seven threads on this forum testify. Is anyone saying that the English Conference level of football is immeasurably worse than Highland League?

Luke, I think you will find your hypothesis has not been proven. Most fans will defend anyone be it players, the manager, fellow fans etc, if they think they are being criticised unfairly. Where we differ is when we feel people (and the manager in particular) need to be defended. As far as the manager is concerned, he gets the chance to defend himself week in week out in the media and he is very capable of doing that (see - I'm defending him!). But as the person who makes the key decisions on the playing side, it is only right and proper that fans question him when we they have doubts and criticise him when they feel he has done things wrong. That is what a forum is for and if we stopped having that diversity of views the forum would be very boring and the club would be the worse for it. It really would be best if folk stuck to the arguments rather than criticise their fellow fans. We're all on the same side after all and share a common wish for ICT to succeed, we just have different views of how we get there.

I'm sure somebody will correct me but 2512 springs to mind for the end ones and 2200 for the main. That leaves about 400 for the West?

Are you too young to remember him tearing up the SPL? Not quite but it's easy to forget that just like its easy to forget the good butchers done when we have one bad season. Are you Butchers lovechild or something? your blind defense of him is something to behold. May i remind you....in Butchers time here, he got us relegated in his first half season here...from a situation that was salvageable, and he nigh on repeated that feat last season. So I think overall, his record is leaning toward sub-standard!

Are you too young to remember him tearing up the SPL?

On hearing the disgraceful racist abuse the Dutch black players received at their open training session, UEFA say they will book any player who reacts by walking off, and the refs will have the power to stop the games. In my eyes that will mean the idiot abusers win, anyone got any ideas on how they shout deal with this, given both the Polish and Ukranian police usually turn a blind eye to the abuse

It is called Post Traumatic Stress Disorder !!

IT SHOULDA BEEN US GETTING DONE BY THE RUSSIANS WE DESERVED THAT BEATING.damn you blom, damn you diving czechs, and damn you mcmanus!!

What does how long or why I support ICT have to do with anything? If you read my posts, I am pretty upfront with everything and you would already know. And there is a difference between how long anyone has supported ICT and how long people have been members of this forum. (just in case you are foolish enough to think that one equates to the other) , It's a fair point he makes. Some of us have seen ICT hundreds of times. We've seen it all before and we can see what's coming....... If you're not sure, it's got 10 letters and begins with R.

I presumed it was one of the small rooms at Eden Court. Charles Kennedy: I'm a Highlander first, a Scot second and a citizen of the United Kingdom third. I thought Lamont was pretty poor compared to the other panel members If she is the best Scottish Labour have to offer then they will get no where.

I think there's a bit of an elephant in the room here that everyone is missing. In my mind, the dropping of attendances has little to do with the world's financial problems, ICT's lack of U19s, ICT slashed budget or any other reason. The reason is what the fans are seeing on the pitch. If the club continually goes down the path (and have a manager who seems desperate to do so) of signing players with no connection or interest in the club or the area, sign players that play for themselves and not the club and have a manager who seems quite content on taking a "don't get beat " attitude, even at home while playing a kick and rush style of football, with any direction that is in it, directed towards a man of 5"7. These tactics are an insult to Billy McKay and even more so, to the supporters. You paint up all the reasons you want to try and cover-up the issue, but none as far as I can see, are the whole reasons why. I believe, and always have believed, that if you put a product on the park that entertains and excites the fans, play players who the fans feel connected to and play players that give their all for the club and play for the shirt - the fans won't turn away.

I for one can fully understand the common despair throughout this topic and several others. The reason being:- I was unlucky enough to miss only one home game last season. There were times where I was in dire need of the number supplied by Kingbeastie. We managed to survive to the end of the season but enough is enough. Either several of the posts on here are from people who don't attend games or their pain threshold is extremely high. I too despair if for one minute someone had ANYTHING positive to say about last season - other than it is over. We truly had all optimism well and truly beaten out of us throughout a very painful season. The games against the old firm were dreadful - the team didn't turn up. The games against Aberdeen were so poor, mirrored by the dismal attendance at the last one. This will continue as long as the entertainment value is so low and dropping. I have posted before that to my mind if we were to source local talent this would encourage more loyalty both from the players and the fans, and rebuild the team spirit and performances that we enjoyed in previous years. This was mainly due to the good work of Pele (now with Rosscoe leaving that era is gone). It doesn't have to be lost forever though. I would use St Mirren as an example, lauded for playing attractive football with a manager prepared to shop around the lower leagues of Scottish football and take in experienced journeymen. This will continue to pay off in the future as they will attract more crowds and retain their squad. I don't see shopping in the lower reaches of English leagues as being the foundation on which to build a steady ship. There is no doubt that some of the players brought in have been good, but where are they? They are not here for the long term and neither are we. But unlike them we hope to return.

Letting Grant Munro go last year was really hard to take and we paid a heavy price in defence for it (R*ss C**nty's gain). Letting Rosscoe go is just a step too far and totally stupid. These were guys who played for the jersey - not just using ICT as a stepping stone to something else. They were true Caley Thistle heroes and stalwarts. All we can look forward to now are unknowns from the diddy leagues of England who will use ICT for their own career progress. Grant Munro & Rosscoe were fans' favourites and played with the true ICT spirit. We've had the heart of our club ripped out - these two guys were still in their prime and now we can 'look forward' to them playing for C**nty against us in the SPL. I'm truly dreading next season! Will it be a case of more sendings off, penalties against and own goals - which was the story of last season? I hope not. Over to you Mr Butcher to prove that my fears are unfounded. Happy to eat humble pie if you can improve things this season.

If the poll had more of a scale, I think the picture would be clearer as opposed to a yes /no option. It certainly will be Mr Bs squad now so I hope he choses wisely with the players he can bring in and soon finds a style of play that suits the players he has.

What do you mean to have faith? Faith to reach top 6 or faith to avoid relegation? I don't have faith that we will make top 6 - but I don't think any manager would achieve that on our current budget. I do have faith that we will finish at least 11th, but i'm not expecting much better than that. However, with Butchers contacts down south, I do have faith that he can uncover at least 2 'gems' so I suppose this will be a yes from me. Ask this again in last August and I will see how I feel for the remainder of the season.

I despair. I really do. I see a player who has been playing part time football until the age of 27 as a signing that might be for squad depth. I certainly won't be expecting him to walk into the team and i'd like a couple more players with a better CV at the club looking for a starting place but i will give him his chance to show what he can do. If he performs exceptionally well and earns a regular place then great, if not he'll be the back up player that we need and what we have all expected from him in the first place.

Charles Bannerman's new favourite player ...... Danny - please tell us what subject he was hoping to teach ? It will make a big difference whether CB or Mantis is his biggest fan !!!!