The "Sunday Herald" quotes Butcher today as saying "We'll have to be a lot more patient if we are to do better." I haven't heard the rest of the interview, but I wonder if he's suggesting that the poor start to the game yesterday, the second half against Aberdeen and the poor starts against St mirren and Falkirk were down to the players ignoring his instructions? I've been laying the blame for this long ball, midfield-by-passing stuff at Butcher's door, but maybe I've been unfair. If so, hopefully now the players will realise they are far more effective trying to play the ball on the ground through the midfield and we'll see a bit more of this in the final five games. Still not sure about some of the positional selections, though.

I think he is passing the buck to be honest. The blame should be at his doorstep. We have been playing as if Brewster was still in charge recently, the low point being the Falkirk game.

Why does everyone blame the manager? Its the standard of our players!!

TOKELY, Djebi zadi, Munro, Duncan, Imrie, Mcbain, Hastings, Morais, McGuire, Barrowman(So far) and Proctor(maybe).

All of them are NOT SPL standard.

Look what Butcher did at Motherwell. Give him time to build a decent squad in the summer provided we stay up and get rid of the dead wood i.e - tokely, duncan, mcbain, hastings etc!

A full season in the SPL under Butcher next season will be far far far better than a season in the 1st division where we were heading with the last management team! So get a grip!

This is a bit clearer in the BBC interview. When Butcher talks about patience, i think he means patiently waiting for the right time to pump the ball into the box rather than patiently passing ball through the midfield.

This week and last week he mentioned the poor quality of rushed long balls.

I think he's referring to Granty, possibly Lionel as well.

Edited April 19, 200917 yr by Caley Stan

This is a bit clearer in the BBC interview. When Butcher talks about patience, i think he means patiently waiting for the right time to pump the ball into the box rather than patiently passing ball through the midfield.

This week and last week he mentioned the poor quality of rushed long balls.

I think he's referring to Granty, possibly Lionel as well.

Fair comment then. Many of the longer balls were wasted, but a few were bang on the nickel not least from Lionel, who has an eye for these things. For all we were slagging Hamilton, and rightly so, they did a damn thorough job of clearing up crap long balls and crosses. No wonder as there were about 9 of them back towards the end.

Why does everyone blame the manager? Its the standard of our players!!

TOKELY, Djebi zadi, Munro, Duncan, Imrie, Mcbain, Hastings, Morais, McGuire, Barrowman(So far) and Proctor(maybe).

All of them are NOT SPL standard.

Look what Butcher did at Motherwell. Give him time to build a decent squad in the summer provided we stay up and get rid of the dead wood i.e - tokely, duncan, mcbain, hastings etc!

A full season in the SPL under Butcher next season will be far far far better than a season in the 1st division where we were heading with the last management team! So get a grip!

My initial post certainly wasn't intended to sound like an attack on Butcher's ability to do the job in the long term: it's just that having witnessed too many games recently when the ball was repeatedly punted long from the back, I had begun to assume that Butcher and MM felt that route one was probably the most effective way to get the points we need on the board. The quote suggested otherwise, so I started this thread to see what everyone else thought.

Whether it is a managerial policy or whether it is down to players like Munro or Djebi-Zadi playing hastily and without trying to read the game still isn't clear, but I do hope it changes over the next few weeks. After Brewster went I said on several posts that I believed Butcher was the strongest candidate for the job, and I'm certainly not going to start blaming him for all our ills after three months in charge, regardless of how the season ends.

With regard to the other part of your post, I agree that there are several members of the squad who aren't of the quality we'd ideally like, but history suggests that mass clear-outs of players under new management are a bad idea - both Aberdeen and Dundee Utd, who have better resources and more attraction for "quality" players than ICT, struggled for years and flirted with relegation as a result of high turnovers of players and managers. Our success, on the other hand, has been built on stability and squad unity. Unless Butcher has replacements that are of proven better quality lined up, I'd be very wary of releasing most of the players you refer to above. I'd rather see him work on motivation and game awareness with players like Morais and Imrie who (IMO) have the raw ability to be SPL players, and retain the likes of Tokely, Duncan and Munro, who have been excellent servants to the club both in and out of the SPL, on the proviso that their places are not guranteed if better players in their positions are signed or come up through the youth system.

i agree, it wont be through butcher they are playing the long balls. he was raaaaaging at time on the touch line yesterday, shouting instructions constantly.

id love to see what butcher does next season, when we stay in the SPL!

I am concerned that the book entitled "Brewsters recipe fer SPL survival" has been left in the managers office and Butcher has been having a wee look at it - chuck it in the feckin bin Tel boy.

Bottom line is that he has inherited somebody elses team - but I reckon we would be fecked by now if Brewster had stayed - and I still suspect that Butcher was getting "tips" from the Muppets who have taken us into this situation.

I dont usually sit on the fence but I cant help but wonder whether he was brave or foolhardy yesterday. That is the type of changes that you make when you are safe or in pre season. Or is it that he has finally sussed out who he can rely on or not - the next selection at the Methadome will be extremely interesting.

Does he stick with Bambi at full back and does he hook Granty and leave Rosscoe with Pavels - does he play Byrne instead of Lionel - who looks extremely shaky away from home - does he go 4-4-2 and does he drop Imrie. It was very interesting how he finally put Foran up front yesterday. But does he go 4-3-1-2 - play Rooney and Foran up front with Morais in the hole - a la Binghamesque. or do we go 4-4-1-1 with Richie as the lone striker ?? Decisions decisions

It looks like he is beginning to play the team around Morais and I can understand that.

But the most annoying thing is that he is beginning to see his best X1 and he should have been in the job 2 months earlier - but that is history _ I am concerned that we are tinkering as I would have preferred that we go into the split with a settled side and a clear formation fer both home and away.

dont have rooney in the plans....please not rooney!

i dont mind him coming on as a sub for the last 10 mins or so, but honestly i dont rate the guy whatsoever! does absolutely nothing for me. runs a bit, doesnt do anything valuable. always gets beat at headers and gets pushed around.

i think yesterdays formation was down to Terry saying that the formation at Aberdeen didnt work, so it was his turn to try something different. this was his something different, but unfortunatley it didnt work. i dont blame him though - if we were dire at Pitoddrie, as he says, he had the right to change it.

What I am alluding to is that Rooney would benefit from playing with the experience of Foran and it might give Morais more freedom and space and two strikers to "serve" instead of one. Foran's form is a key to our survival but I feel that he cannot be used as a lone striker as he is more of a predator than a target man - but if you let Rooney do the donkey work ?? Who else have we got to partner Foran ?

Does he stick with Bambi at full back and does he hook Granty and leave Rosscoe with Pavels

Is this a serious option? I think that Grant needs to be replaced in the long term - he's had a shocking season both defensively and in terms of his passing.

But Rosscoe? I can't comment having never seen him play centre-half. Was he so convincing yesterday?

I hear ya IHE, and i totally agree on Foran. Bringing Foran in was a great shout, in fact id say vital!!

His and Kerr's form are why im looking forward to seeing who Terry brings in over the summer! Great contacts!

Problem yesterday against Hamilton was that they crowded the middle of the park and made it impossible to play the ball through and had to look to going round or over. By the end of the game we were 5 up front and playing long diagonal balls forward and actually looking like we were getting somewhere....but then Hamilton just switched to 5 at the back and cancelled us out there too.

It's the kind of thing we were doing against teams when we first got in to the SPL...keeping it stuffy/tight and closing down quickly then hoping to catch a bit of luck at the other end.

Given Butcher hasn't had all that long with the squad, and that he had a lot to undo before he could stamp his own mark then I think we're getting on not too bad, and I think Butcher is correct....at times yesterday we were too quick to ping the ball into the area...often finding that we had nobody there to receive it. I believe that's the point he was getting at.....our guys need to show a little more confidence in holding the ball a fraction longer in order that supporting players can get into position.

I don't think Rosscoe's got the fitness to play at right back anymore. He was almost like a different player yesterday! Rosscoe + Pavels at centre back is a great shout. Now that just leaves the full backs as a problem area. Zadi is shocking - He should go back to the German amateur league or where ever it was that he came from. We could all see yesterday why Proctor gets called Bambi. Would the mythical Gathuessi at right back be a better shout? Does Gathuessi even exist? Anyone able to confirm?

We need a mass clear-out in the summer. Djebi-Zadi, Proctor, Duncan, Imrie can all immediately GTF. They are simply not needed. We can do without the bombscare at left back, a right back that can't even run, a defensive midfielder who has been masquerading as a professional footballer for long enough, and a... erm, winger?... No that can't be right - he'd need to be able to cross the ball... an attacking midfielder? No that's not right either, because he'd need to be able to beat his man... a striker? no he'd be able to finish... I give up, does anyone have any clue what-so-ever about what it is that Imrie brings to the team, other than the ability to run about a lot? I've heard a lot of people give McGeady a hard time for being all flashy moves and not much end product, but FFS people, Imrie doesn't even have the flashy moves! He's living off the feckin free kick from Tynecastle now!

When Munro was left to marshal a line of 2 or 3 did anyone else notice that his distribution actually improved? He was taking touches and finding passes, rather than just not thinking and putting his foot through the ball. In a relegation tussle, no ones position should be a certainty - not even the captains. It is for that reason I urge Butcher to consider his ultimately better options when choosing the defence for the next game.

Can someone define what is an SPL standard player. What is the benchmark? What i see week in week out is that the majority of out players are of the same standard as all the other teams players outside the OF and Hearts.

I really don't know, I'm just giving my opinion. But Tokely is the worst SPL RB.

I really don't know, I'm just giving my opinion. But Tokely is the worst SPL RB.

I beg to differ on that. Tokely is a very good attacking right back. Some will say he gets caught out of position. To me the problem is those who should be covering when he makes runs. In the days of Dods at his side and Wilson in front the cover was always there. The link up with Wilson was excellent and Ross could cross a damn good ball into the box.

The problem now is not Ross Tokely. The problem is a total lack of teamwork. Everyone can shine against the OF but not against the other nine. Why??

Thats straying off topic though. What Butcher said is, and I quote from official site, "They (the players) need to show a bit more calmness and patience at times as we are going to have a lot of pressure over the next five games".

My interpretation of that is that they need to be a lot less panicky on the ball. Dont hoof it but play it, keep it, pass with care and patiently build an attack.

Can someone define what is an SPL standard player. What is the benchmark? What i see week in week out is that the majority of out players are of the same standard as all the other teams players outside the OF and Hearts.

sebo?

Can someone define what is an SPL standard player. What is the benchmark? What i see week in week out is that the majority of out players are of the same standard as all the other teams players outside the OF and Hearts.

sebo? :thumb04:

Every barrel can have one bad apple

Can someone define what is an SPL standard player. What is the benchmark? What i see week in week out is that the majority of out players are of the same standard as all the other teams players outside the OF and Hearts.

An SPL standard player is one who gets regular exposure against other SPL teams. The standards are set by the SPL teams. An SPL standard team is one which maintains its status in the SPL annually without breaking SPL rules or campaigning against other teams to maintain that status.

Yep, I'm talking out of my ass but if our players aren't SPL standard what does that say about the other SPL teams? The sum of the parts is greater than the whole which is how we have survived in the SPL for so long.

His changes payed off on Saturday i:e Morais, Imrie out wide and Foran up front in the 2nd half, stick with that regularly from now on and i see us getting some results.

Problem with Hamilton is once they score the first goal against us they pack 10 players into their on half and soak up pressure. All Hamilton games vs us this season have been boring. But luckily Brian Kerr changed that on Saturday . If we score first against them though i think we get the edge on them next time.

If SPL is where we are next season then i can see us getting some good players in as well as keeping what we have minus Black. And having a good season in the league. Butcher got Motherwell into the top 6 while they were struggling. No reason why he can't do it with us.

OK guys, enough is enough. This petty oneupmanship has to stop soon or forum bans will be issued. Sort your differences via email or PM, we don't all need to see it on every other thread as when it starts all you are doing is taking the threads off topic.

I have deleted 16 posts from this topic and half of them belong to either renegade or rossco23

Be warned that topic bans will be issued for any more persistent abuse of posting rules. Further breaches will mean permanent bans from the site.

OK guys, enough is enough. This petty oneupmanship has to stop soon or forum bans will be issued. Sort your differences via email or PM, we don't all need to see it on every other thread as when it starts all you are doing is taking the threads off topic.

I have deleted 16 posts from this topic and half of them belong to either renegade or rossco23

Be warned that topic bans will be issued for any more persistent abuse of posting rules. Further breaches will mean permanent bans from the site.

Renegade hasn't posted in this one and we haven't been arguing?!

yes he did, although mostly in reply to your goading. The posts have been removed (but not deleted - mods can still review them). Please direct any questions on the moderaton to the relevant moderator. further posts discussing the moderation of this thread will be deleted.