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You are correct. I think I brought it up a couple of times. Simply awful at throw ins, and set pieces. It is something Butcher needs to address, along with Russelldinho's exclusion. It's as though they have been told what to do, and don't break that rule. Maybe Russell took a throw in last week and was chastised for it.

I have the utmost sympathy for the staff and players who will be left high and dry by these events. And Also the fans who have once again been duped by lies and false promises. Unfortunately Dundee have brought this on themselves and when they did get a benefactor did they not pause for a second to think "Ok we've went up the creek before" You'd think they would be much more content to build slowly, as while overspending can bring short term success, it has been continously proven unsustainable at both Dundee and other clubs much bigger than themselves (Leeds etc) When Melville was brought in he said there would be no high spending and the club (going by archive bbc website articles) would be run within its means. He then went out and spent ?300k on 2 players and allowed a squad of 30+ players to be kept. It was marginally trimmed this season after releasing around 15 of them but they then went and brought in even more players. Some only 3 weeks ago! Surely they knew there was a potential predicament by then? People draw comparisons with us however I believe we managed to have a senior squad of around 19-20 (any new boys being freebies, mainly kids looking for a club) supplemented by youngsters such as Ross, Shinnie and Gavin Morrison. For some to state that Dundee who had around 10 more senior players, a fair few on better wages I'd imagine, would have a similar wage outgoing is more than likely off the mark. Add to the release of some non footballing staff and it seems more like we really trimmed costs to be sustainable in the 1st Division for that 1st season, with scope to adapt for the outcome going into the next season. I don't understand how the directors are claiming that Dundee are being treated differently by HMRC. Have they not read of all the winding up orders they have been attempting to impliment down South? Pompey for example? Why do some football directors feel it perfectly ok to not pay tax on time? The money should be set aside in some form and if there is no money coming in to cover bills then costs should be cut and financial models reviewed. Im no expert but it seems a fairly logical solution to me. In my opinion Dundee shouldn't be relegated- At least not right away as I believe this would do more harm to the league. A 60 point penalty which would effectively see them relegated and give them ample time to get a squad sorted for the 2nd division and costs slashed. Perhaps others will see this as harsh but it is a 2nd time in less than 10 years. Lessons have not been learnt. I hope all directors of other clubs take heed of ANOTHER stark warning of these events and make sure that it doesn't happen to them. It's a forlorn hope perhaps but hey there is always hope at least

We were feckin hopeless in the first half and only a great save from Esson kept us in the match. Who knows what Tokely was thinking when he ducked under the ball which led to their goal. We didn't get going in the second half until Butcher hooked the abysmal McCann replacing him with Duncan and swapped Foran with Ross. Hopefully Butcher now realises that Ritchie is wasted in defensive midfield. I think today is definitely a point gained as we were second best for the majority of the match.

4th! 4th? 4th!! Incredible. Bad luck to Aberdeen who lost today. What chance did they have though with those injuries, that weather, the referee, climate change, the Tory cuts, Spain winning the World Cup etc etc etc. It's all conspired against McGhee. You can't hold the p1ss-poor run of results against them.

Although I had a laugh when I was reading the sun today I did think it was a bit poor taste for him to be selling his book on the back of Pele's gambling and drinking issues. I never took to him as an ICT player or coach tbh

as a side note, why are Dundee in the SPL section of the BBC sport website, and not the Scottish League section anyway, it's a shame such a club has not learnt from their mistakes of 7 years ago. I personally can't help but feel for the staff behind the scenes, the fans or even some of the players, whilst having a cheeky wee snigger at those who thought money would buy success. That side of Dundee FC (i.e. the arrogance and attitude) are what have ultimately brought the club to it's knees. Just my opinion

Shouldn't laugh, but.........Brian Kerr

I disagree, if we still had as much coming in from TV and sponsorship then clubs would just be in an even bigger hole. The problem is not the amount of money coming in, it's the amount going out (or not given the debts) and it's a massive swing in mindset of those who run/are allowed to run the clubs in this country that is the issue. Under the business model used for the majority of clubs there's no incentive for Club Boards to ensure finances are kept properly in check. They can sanction deals and spend without fear as, when it all goes tits up, they can simply walk away. Even if they have invested in clubs it is often by way of the magic "soft loan" and, as is being borne out in Dundee's case, they can use that situation to hold those they owe to ransom...i.e. If you are going to insist on us paying what we owe you now then we'll just put the club in administration and you can join the queue for your 7p in pound settlement. As has been pointed out, we did not have these issues 30 years ago. That's not because we have more or less money coming in to the game, it's because club ownership models have changed. What shocks me is that the changes have proved to be a disaster from day one and nobody within the upper echelons seems willing/able to see that the only way to get things back on track financially is to return to what worked for both clubs and the game for over 100 years previously. Football clubs MUST get back to a community ownership based model or we will just continue to lurch from one financial disaster to another. Only when those changes happen will honest, unselfish and truly democratic decisions start being made which are for the benefit of clubs, the fans and the game as a whole.

When ICT first got promoted to SPL... Dundee (along with Partick Jags) voted against our entry. I hope Dundee go to the wall and die.

To add to their woes, Jocky's Scott's legal case against Dundee starts this week. Someone was telling me BTW that Jocky now works as a delivery man for a florist. If I can find out which one it is, I might arrange for them (ie Jocky) to deliver a wreath to Dens with the message "Wha's in charge?!"

Oh my.

:laugh: Would he not burn the flowers with his Jetpack? Hi SFL2, hiya pal.

OK... if you want "exactly what it says on the tin".... the 2 all draw with St. Johnstone at Telford Street in February 1992. However if Caley Thistle games are allowed to be included, it would for me be a dead heat between two 4-3 scorelines - the already referred to defeat at Livingston in the Second Division and a 4-3 victory against Ayr United in Inverness, coming from 3-0 down.

The game can not and will not be played on a Saturday. It will be played on Tuesday 23rd November as advised. This date will definitely not change, so it won't be moved to a Saturday, no matter how much you would like it to be. So just to make it clear it will be held on Tuesday 23rd November with a 7.30pm kick off. November is because that's the date Ross County set and nothing to do with Roy potentially leaving in . Roy has a contract until the end of the season, so there would be little likelyhood of him going anywhere in January. I'm kind of remembering why I don't post on here much now