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Sounds like advocating for the devil if you ask me. That scenario is being implanted in others minds by yourself. Marks said>> Why is it down to the fans to create confidence in the team rather than the other way around? The confidence from the fans is gained by the team/management not being knocked at every opportunity. The teams performance also gives out confidence to the fans. It's a two way thing. They play rubbish we get on their backs, we drag them down all the time they find it difficult to get out of the rut. Accept that sometimes there are no hidden agendas in things that happen. Not everyone/everything has an ulterior motive. I don't need to re-read your post thanks, once is enough, and if the cap fit's then wear it. No, I think that what I have given is a fair assessment. I am looking at all scenarios, others are looking only for positives. Ying and Yang, if you have only a one sided view you have a false view. As for the confidence issue there is a world of difference between confidence and support, eg I am going to support Scotland (via the TV set) in their next two matches but I have little confidence in them winning their group, hope yes confidence no. Please tell me where I have slated the team/ management, I have raised issues and given reasons behind my issues, to get back to Scotty's point you have not addressed issues which I or anyone else has raised you have only taken the points people have made and slated individual posters for addressing possible negative outcomes, even going as far as to put ideas into people's minds of ulterior motives. Who is playing devil's advocate? Nor have I claimed there are ulterior motives from the club, just an apparent lack of preparing for the worst.

I have been reading about the player of the year polls run by the website, it got me to thinking that it might be a nice touch to award points in the same manner to opposition teams, that way we could award a player who has performed particularly well against us over the season with a small token/award. I would imagine this would be the first fansite to do so in Scotland and might raise the profile of our fans as leaders amongst our peers. Thoughts?

So we are "firmly rooted at the bottom of the table" are we .. .? We are 1 point behind the three teams above us, two points behind thetwo above them. One win and one or more of those above losing and wecould be up 2 or 3 places and right back in it. In terms of goaldifferences, we are on -9 as is Dumfermline with Hibs on -7. Aberdeen areon -3, courtesy of their recent 4-0 thumping of the Fifers. And even StMirren are still within our sights. There is a loooooong way to go in this league. Our new team isstarting to show some confidence and therefore results. The picture ismuch more hopeful now than it was at the start but they just need to keepplaying and keep grinding out results. Too much of football is about sacking managers, but there are heavycosts involved in that mindset and it is too often the easy answer to what areusually much deeper underlying issues. To create a measure of stabilityat this stage shows that the board have confidence in the strategy that Terryand June have laid out and are willing to put their money where their mouth is. More sail!

Other than the "bollocks" comment which was a response to a poster starting the personal bullshit and having a go at the moderators rather than a moderator having a go at anyone - ie. the opposite of what you seem to be suggesting - can you show me where any moderator has sought to deny a poster the right to express their opinion in this thread?Can you show me where I said that the moderator "has sought to deny a poster the right to express their opinion", I just thought that post #11 was having a go at people that up until that stage were just expressing their opinion. Didnt say that you were. However, I will explain my comments to bring some clarity and closure to the off topic portion of this discussion ... you said 'having a go at people for having some doubts about this is ludicrous in the extreme' and went on to say 'I would have thought Moderators understood that the purpose of a forum was for people to express their opinions'. To me that sounds like you are saying that it is the moderators who started having a pop at the regular posters when the reverse is true. This thread was ticking along quite nicely with a reasoned discussion and no personalisation of it. Post #11, whilst perhaps disagreeing with a number of posters, did not name anyone, and did not abuse anyone, it was just an opinion and perhaps some frustration on the part of the poster. The 'naming' started at post #23 when that poster thought to throw in an unnecessary reference to the moderators and tar all of them with the same brush. The sad part is that the actual points made in that post that were relevant to the discussion were actually valid and it would have stood on its own without the personalisations, but by personalising it, it turned this thread, like so many others into an absolute shitfest. If you read my posts #23 and #33 you will see exactly where I believe the blame lies, and I will say again, it is a shame that this is the case because any valid points made by that poster (and there are usually a few) are often lost in the cloud of personalisation that accompanies every post .... I will also add one final thing to this comment, and that is to point out that moderators (or admin) are only moderators when actually moderating or helping ensure the smooth running of the forum. When they post, they post their own personal opinions the same as any user, and you can agree or disagree with those opinions. Like every other poster on this site they may respond "more strongly" than someone would like at times and if so, they are subject to the same rules as other users in terms of having posts deleted or receiving warnings ... so lets put this side conversation to bed and get back to discussing the actual subject ! I (personally) think he made a mistake getting rid of Munro and Duncan - as posted by myself last week, but he has to live with that and get on with things. I am happy he has a new contract as I do believe we are on the up. Yes we are at the bottom, and results are not as good as we might have hoped, and I understand why some people question the announcement, even if I disagree with them. However, as noted in my post on the "Keep the Faith" thread I also think he has had a lot to deal with this season that hasn't helped us so overall I am happy to see him sign a new deal. I also had not thought of AbsentFriend's point, which is a good one too ... A lot of managers seem to get the chop during the season and Butcher has had a recent record of doing quite well so may be in demand if jobs were available. We may be sitting at the bottom at the moment, but he did take us back up at the first time of asking, and we did well last season in the SPL ... our current league position would probably be ignored by any potential employers as our last few games have shown an improvement in form .... I would also say the idea of not giving a contract because it would cost more to sack him if he is on a longer deal is bogus too. ICT - as a rule - do not sack managers. Yes we sacked Brewster V2.0, but he was the only one (officially at least - Baltacha was 'mutual consent' at the end of a season). Pele left for Aberdeen, Robbo left for Hearts, Brewster(V1.0) left for Dundee United, and Charlie resigned .... TB is not getting sacked anytime soon, and probably not even if he were to get us relegated ... the merits of that can be argued, but I think its fairly certain. I also dont think Brewster would have got sacked if it were not for two things ... a lot of bad feeling about him taking the Dundee job first time round, and a lack of charisma and personal PR in dealing with the media and the fans ... for the most part TB has both eating out of his hands, especially when things are going well.

I also think that this is a positive move by the club BUT for a different reason to most posters on here. We are now entering a more positive phase for ICT, both in players returning after injury and the calibre of the games we are about to face. This could see us propelled up the league and sitting in the attention area for any club board wishing to change their manager. Should this scenerio come about and the money offered attracts him/them, ICT could, due to this extension of the contract, perhaps enjoy a greater financial reward for being forward thinking. Maybe, just maybe, this is a win win situation all round.

The term, which was from yourself, was actually "sitting rock bottom" and I had inferred that to mean what I said in my post which is not necessarily the case. My error, apologies. However, I still believe that this is good news as it should still any rumblings or uncertainties, at least for a while. Then again, when things really are tough, no manager ever wants to hear a Club spokesperson say " . . . . has the full confidence of the Board . . . " as that is usually an indicator of this: !!!

You are correct this is a move by the club which was done from a positive perspective, it is a move which shows commitment to the management team, my original point though is not one of negativity for the sake of negativity as your post here would seem to be hinting at, I am thinking that Butcher himself said (during the transfer window) that the way things are in the game short contracts are the way to go at this time for reasons already discussed on this forum. It seems a little hypocritical that management should be offered extensions to their contracts when players have the uncertainty of short term contracts hanging over them, everyone knows that playing careers are short so why give players even more doubt with short contracts? Why not raise their confidence by giving them longer terms also? Why is it down to the fans to create confidence in the team rather than the other way around? We have already taken the big step backwards through relegation, then moved forwards through a great season last year, do we have to go backwards and forwards in alternative seasons? I am not trying to play devil's advocate, I am genuinely wanting to know why this has been announced now. If I was to play devil's advocate I would ask if this is a move to build confidence in the fans given our league position rather than a move to build confidence within the team. For the record I do not believe this to be the case. As I said before, what is good for the goose should be good for the gander and if the club feel that players should only be given short term contracts for financial reasons then the same should go for the management team. If players are seen as a financial risk and are kept on due to performance then the same should go for coaching staff. I hope that the club answer my concerns now by proving me wrong and showing the same level of commitment to the playing staff as they have to the coaching staff. I would also hope that you could take the time to reread my posts and take notice of the positive aspects within them instead of picking up on the negative aspects and dwelling on them.

Remember, moderators are posters too. My previous comment was with regards to the negative comments against something that is surely only a positive move by the club. However, there are certain posters who always find a way to take the shine off of anything that happens, in my opinion, based purely on stirring the muck. I also wonder how many of the negative posters have seen us play this season on a regular basis and if the answer is yes, then there is no way that the form of the team should lead to the negative conclusions drawn out kindly for us all to see. Yes, the club the management the players and the fans all have their faults as well, but playing devils advocate does little to raise confidence and the belief of others if they read what they see at face value. I am not convinced that many of the postings on here are for real, and fishing trips are a part of forums that we all have to sift through. I have no issue with anyone partaking in debate, whether positive or negatively, but simply being negative for the sake of it is just immature and frankly turns a lot of people off. Why wait until January to make this decision? The club see the current duo as the way forward, signing them on now builds confidence in many ways for players, management, investors and fans alike. Would some like to see the current management fall flat on their faces. I fully understand why the question was asked, I just wondered if it should have been asked at this time. With regards to the bread and butter comment, surely there is more to this than simply we are bottom of the league full stop. The board obviously have more vision and are looking at the bigger picture, sometimes you have to go backwards before you can go forward. Remember this, not everything you read on here is meant with good intentions, I'll let you make your own mind up about that. And to finish off, I am sure the board will have a few legal loopholes to use if it all goes tots up, so I am all in favour of this early boost.

While I can see both sides of the argument I remain convinced we should have waited a bit, at present nobody knows if Butchers strategy is going to work, early signs haven't been over encouraging so I am just a bit confused about the timing. Finally having a go at people for having some doubts about this is ludicrous in the extreme, I would have thought Moderators understood that the purpose of a forum was for people to express their opinions.

Who said we are "firmly rooted to the bottom of the table"? From what I can see anyone speaking out against the wisdom of offering contracts at this stage has also acknowledged that, given good results, we could turn this position around in a few games and have said so before you took the time to recap the league position for us. Think back to the Brewster sacking, when fans started calling for his departure we had not even hit the bottom position, I am not suggesting that we sack Butcher and I do not believe anyone has suggested that. What is being suggested is that offering a new contract when things are so uncertain may have been the wrong move, should things not improve, and consider that the teams immediately above us are showing signs of improvement too, then it could end up being a costly exercise. Like any other fan I hope beyond hope for my team to do well but I question the logic of offering contracts to an underperforming management team who had refused to give contracts to a couple of our better performing players just a few months earlier, Butcher may be a legend but so were Munro and Duncan. Legend status should not be a consideration in the extension of contracts, results should be, this decision could have waited, this decision should have waited.

One word - vision. I think Kenny Cameron and the board are showing vision in giving the management a contract extension. The management team, I believe, share this vision. I sincerely think they are aiming for top six. And by top six I mean not merely a placing come the end of the season, but in terms of the club becoming established in the SPL and moving forward. I am pleased that they have signed on and share the vision the club has. Yes, we have been unfortunate with injuries this season. Yes, there have been drastic changes in playing personnel. Things change in football. Things change all of the time in life. Here's what I'd really like to know - the wage structure of each and every SPL club. I would hazard a guess that we are probably working on the smallest budget - hence the loan signings. Hence the untested young guys who are coming in looking for their breaks - like former player Adam Rooney. One thing I will say though is that Terry Butcher is, pound for pound, one million times the manager Neil Lennon is.

Bollocks.

I agree with you DALNEIGHCALEY, this is a ludicrous time to be handing out new contracts while we are sitting at the foot of the table, total madness!!!! That fella Laurence was ridiculed by almost everyone on here but this decision beggers belief IMO it really does, he's probably having a right good chuckle at this tonight I personally would have waited till January before discussions took place that way we would have had more first team players back from injury and hopefully be in a much healthier league position If results improve and we start to climb the table that is the time to dish out rewards not when we are on the back foot, check my previous posts as i've already stated this opinion on a previous thread in case i get accused off fishing As usual the site admin and moderating team can only see nothing but positives my advice to them would be its time they entered the real world and accept there are some of us who are not scared to voice our opinions because it differs from theirs dougal Good post, I too believe that January would have been a better time to announce this, our place in the table could quite easily look a whole lot better after 3 or 4 good results and other results going our way conversely it could look a hell of a lot worse given some bad luck and a run of form for our rivals. I believe that signing TB and MM up for an extended spell in charge is probably a good thing but there are too many things which could go wrong and end up stretching our modest budget to breaking point. Could you not post without dragging things to a personal level in discussions which are valid and worthy of discussion? I usually sit back and don't comment unless I feel it is merited, I do however read most threads on here and you have a lot of good stuff to say, yes you get a fair bit of flaming some of which is undeserved but in some cases you get what you deserve.

Best signing of the season IMHO. That's not to say I don't have concerns about a few things but the stability this affords the club is really important. Butcher and Malpas have been good for the club. It was a great acheivement to bounce straight up from the SFL and a great acheivement to equal our highest ever position last year. This year the league is tight and we are in a false position at the foot of the table, but despite that, the team is playing some very good attractive football. I am confident that we will soon be heading up the table playing a brand of football which will excite the fans. Well done to the Board for offering a 2 year deal and well done to Terry and Mo for accepting.

Terry is barely 3 months into his plan to bring a different approach to how ICT set up and play football. It's a long term plan and it's encouraging that the club are willing to commit to that by offering these extensions. Had things been going from bad to worse since the start of the season then I might be more inclined to agree with the "why now?" statements, but I think we've seen enough to know that we're actually on an upward trend and whilst it's not been the most pleasant of rides so far, things can only continue to improve. I see this as a sign that the club are regaining their confidence in the long term aspirations of the club and hopefully that will continue and we'll start to see those players Terry wishes to keep being offered longer contracts as well.

Sorry have to disagree I think this is good news and brings a bit of stability to the dressing room. I have always worried that if Terry and Mo walked away with a lot of players on short term deals we could be in a bad position.

What is it with this forum. Anything positive that emanates from the club gets met with scepticism and negativity. Good to get the men at the helm tied up, lets work on the rest as we progress.

Kenny Cameron may not know much about football but if he instigated this move - A BIG WELL DONE TO HIM

And just how often have you seen MacKay play to come to the conclusion that you would far rather see him playing upfront with Tade than Foran? Never - but I've seen enough of Foran in that position to convince me ANYONE would be better.

I agree with you DALNEIGHCALEY, this is a ludicrous time to be handing out new contracts while we are sitting at the foot of the table, total madness!!!! That fella Laurence was ridiculed by almost everyone on here but this decision beggers belief IMO it really does, he's probably having a right good chuckle at this tonight I personally would have waited till January before discussions took place that way we would have had more first team players back from injury and hopefully be in a much healthier league position If results improve and we start to climb the table that is the time to dish out rewards not when we are on the back foot, check my previous posts as i've already stated this opinion on a previous thread in case i get accused off fishing As usual the site admin and moderating team can only see nothing but positives my advice to them would be its time they entered the real world and accept there are some of us who are not scared to voice our opinions because it differs from theirs dougal

Bollocks. The ubiquitous Bollocks phrases. Golden bollocks, Grande bollocks, dogs bollocks, dougals bollocks, bollocks dougal. When does you fishing permit expire Dougal. Looks like you were'nt disappointed Scotty , 1 poster dares have an opinion and the personal insults soon start !

Aye whatever. I don't have the answers to any of your issues, and don't have time to play games so sorry, you will have to ask someone else.