I think this debate should have its own thread.

I wouldn't want to interfere with anyone's right to free speech or to express an opinion. I would guess that ever since football was invented, spectators have hurled abuse at anyone they feel deserves it.

Some might be surprised at this... I believe there is a strong case for supporters to hurl dogs abuse at certain players, in certain situations... Anyone on the field of play who deliberately attempts to break an opponent's leg or commit a career threatening challenge thoroughly deserves all the abuse the are likely to receive. Look at that recent tackle on Celtic's Scott Brown.... I thought ther supporters showed remarkeable restraint over that incident.

The other side of the coin though is the abuse that gets dished out to players - who quite simply aren't having a good day...  To me it becomes totally unacceptable when supporters boo or abuse players - on their side

It is also unacceptable to me, for supporters to come on here, and post hurtful, insulting comments - again, directed at players representing the team they claim to support.

I also kind of get the impression that many on this site are reluctant to get involved in this debate....

Prove me wrong guys & gals....  :rolleyes02:

Hasn't this subject been done to death on at least two other threads.

what about donald park never heard anyone moaning when he was shouting dogs abuse at players througt out many a game !!!!!!  :023: :023: :023:

It's a fair subject to discuss. Other threads were in reference to specific incidents and players, and got bogged down in detail rather than the issue of a supporter's right to express their views, or otherwise.

Let's distinguish between 3 forms of criticism.

1) You think it.

2) You express it to your pals at the game, or in the pub, or on here.

3) You express it directly to the player in question.

I know where I draw the line, but I would defend the right of any paying customer to do 3) if that's what they want to do.

Surely as ICT supporters we should be supporting rather than abusing the team.

Yes, we all get frustrated, but picking on certain ICT players is out of order, save your energy for the opposition.

If any ICT player is not pulling their weight, I'm sure they'd get a grilling from team mates and coaching staff during or after the game.

It's a fair subject to discuss. Other threads were in reference to specific incidents and players, and got bogged down in detail rather than the issue of a supporter's right to express their views, or otherwise.

Let's distinguish between 3 forms of criticism.

1) You think it.

2) You express it to your pals at the game, or in the pub, or on here.

3) You express it directly to the player in question.

I know where I draw the line, but I would defend the right of any paying customer to do 3) if that's what they want to do.

I'm pleased you think it's a fair subject to discuss...  I'm a wee bit surprised at Alex's comment....

By knowing where to draw the line.... I take it you mean you wouldn't go as far as to direct a "less than flattering comment" directly to a player in question?

Or would that depend on the player in question..?  :023:

Sorry, I'm a bit confused here.

What's the difference in someone criticising someone for their performance, and someone criticising someone (constantly) for their value/contribution ratio to the team?

Is this thread supposed to be ironic? :017:

At games, if we are performing badly, I express my dissatisfaction through silence. I've never once booed our team or shouted "you're rubbish" (or any other such adjective) to any ICT player, even when I'm thinking it.

I do however think that people who choose to put themselves in the public eye (be it politicians, footballers, actors, company directors) know that their performances are going to be subject to harsh scrutiny, and are perhaps not suited to their job if they can't take it.

Sticks and stones.......

Valid subject, but hard to define what is acceptable ... i guess its down to the person

for me,

its acceptable to think someone is not up to the task, its also acceptable to express that opinion on a message board as it is an opinion and people can agree with it or not.

However, as two-faced as it might seem, I would stop short of booing or berating that player the moment they pull on an ICT shirt on a matchday as at that time they are deserving of my support in the hope that together with the rest of the team they can win the game.

We have heard a lot about this recently regarding McAllister in particular and I dont think booing him is having any positive effect. It is not however a new phenomenon and I remember sitting above the tunnel when the old guys behind me would constantly get on Paul Ritchie's case ... even when he was having a good game. We turned it on its head and myself, Big Stu and others around us would cheer Paul Ritchie every time the old boys would berate him and it soon stopped them  :015:

i think if yer underperforming on ANY job, you are open to abuse. I used to get grief a plenty in my previous job from customers if things werent just so for them, including expletives! Like it or not, its part of human nature to express critiscism. Bottom line is, ppl are paying over inflated prices to watch ICT. I think they have every right to vent their frustration if they feel they are being short changed, and any time i have seen a certain RM, thats exactly how i felt!

And just for the record, he is the only one that managed to evoke such feelings!

Is this not all a matter of degrees or perhaps, more realistically, spur of the moment reaction?

Scenerio one - Bayne misses an open goal in the first few minutes of a game.

Scenerio two - Bayne misses an open goal against Rangers in the 90th minute, for us to win the game.

In the first scenario I accept that Scotty will remain silent, perhaps.

In the second scenario I do NOT accept Scotty will remain silent as he will be all charged up, as will we all be and Graham will get pelters AND expect it!!

The McAllister situation is totally different - the type of 'supporter' (not) that behaves in this way to our own player, before he even takes the field of play, has been identified and this part of the old thread should be put to bed.

Is this not all a matter of degrees or perhaps, more realistically, spur of the moment reaction?

Scenerio one - Bayne misses an open goal in the first few minutes of a game.

Scenerio two - Bayne misses an open goal against Rangers in the 90th minute, for us to win the game.

In the first scenario I accept that Scotty will remain silent, perhaps.

In the second scenario I do NOT accept Scotty will remain silent as he will be all charged up, as will we all be and Graham will get pelters AND expect it!!

quite possibly ......

For me the question is when does criticism stop being constructive and become abuse?

In any match, be we winning or losing I am no stranger to shouting at a player to push forward more, play the ball sooner, get stuck in on the tackle...that, IMO, is constructive criticism.  However, you cross the line when you start shouting things like "your crap" or booing a player...and it's taken to a whole different level when your doing it before the player has even taken to the field or to such an extent that your criticising/abusing a player every time they touch the ball.

We all have players we like and we all have players we'd rather weren't wearing an ICT top at all....such is life and it would be a boring old world if we all thought the same.  I'm no different to anyone else on that subject, but I try and look beyond my opinions as soon as they pull the shirt on and take to the field...at the end of the day I support ICT, not the individuals who make up ICT...be they players, management or otherwise.

Of course, the above is the ideal scenario, and in the heat of the moment things can be said or done which go against what we like to think is the manner in which we behave...that's just the nature of the beast and we could all very likely find ourselves giving someone pelters for a bad play or mistake that costs us a goal or whatever.  For me that falls into the category of "reaction" and nobody should be hounded for it as their is a big difference, IMO, between premeditated abuse and a comment in the heat of the moment.

As to discussions on the forum or in the pub as opposed to during the match.  For me similar scenario's apply, if the criticism is constructive then I welcome discussion with those who post it, but their does come a point where it slips into the realms of abusive and I don't personally think there's any need for it.  I also think people should be conscious of the language they use as calling someone "utterly sh***" will be jumped upon by some as being far more sinister than simply saying "I don't think that player is skilled enough to be a part of the team".  At the end of the day they both mean the same thing, but will promote very different responses.

I'll throw one more thought into the pot.....15 years ago Internet Forums were few and far between, especially for football fans and I think they have revolutionised things in terms of how fans can communicate praise and criticism.  They may even be partly responsible for quieter crowds!!!  Prior to that the only real way a fan had of letting feelings be known was by the noise they made during a match, and it was probably more acceptable back then to "abuse" players, managers etc.  The Internet is now an easy and largely anonymous way for people to "get the boot in" as they can say their piece and then choose whether or not to listen to what peer opinion is.

Fans will always find an outlet for their comments, the Internet just provides another option.  The debate as to whether it is for the better or worse will be one which I think will continue for a very long time.

I have never booed the team, during or after a game, there's nothing constructive in that (I have booed several refs though and opposition players when required)

I have never been anything other than totally supportive of the players I have met face to face, even though not all of them deserved it.

I have no problem expressing my opinions online, and I expect others to do the same, this site wouldn't be nearly so interesting if we didn't! If a player can't take what might be getting written about him then he knows not to visit the site, likewise if a poster can't take opinions other than theirs  then maybe they should think twice too!  :023:

"likewise if a poster can't take opinions other than theirs then maybe they should think twice too"

No Mee, No, don't go.

I?m vexed by vacuous, vicious and vehement verbiage that isn?t troubled by variegation.

No Mee, No, don't go.

I only wish I could return the sentiment Sophia :023:

If the team play pish they deserve to be booed.  I don't understand why anyone would boo or abuse a player while they are warming up or coming on as a sub though, that really has gobsmacked me.

Once when Hissy played ofr us he chased a ball down to the sidelines and the opposition got a throw.  I thought it was a pish decision and shouted 'FUCKS SAKE' or something similar at the linesman, but Hissy thought I'd sjhouted it at him and turned round looking dead hurt  :015: I felt very guilty  :007:

It's a fair subject to discuss. Other threads were in reference to specific incidents and players, and got bogged down in detail rather than the issue of a supporter's right to express their views, or otherwise.

Let's distinguish between 3 forms of criticism.

1) You think it.

2) You express it to your pals at the game, or in the pub, or on here.

3) You express it directly to the player in question.

I know where I draw the line, but I would defend the right of any paying customer to do 3) if that's what they want to do.

:clapping03: :clapping03: :clapping03: Spot on - but at a game you get behind the team which is all 11 players irrespective of who.

I have never booed the team, during or after a game, there's nothing constructive in that (I have booed several refs though and opposition players when required)

I have never been anything other than totally supportive of the players I have met face to face, even though not all of them deserved it.

I have no problem expressing my opinions online, and I expect others to do the same, this site wouldn't be nearly so interesting if we didn't! If a player can't take what might be getting written about him then he knows not to visit the site, likewise if a poster can't take opinions other than theirs  then maybe they should think twice too!  :023:

I feckin totally disagree with all that garbage.  :015: :015:

I thought CaleyD made quite a few really good points in his post (above)....

Anyone else agree...

Anyone else disagree..?

Niculae will play better when he is match fit and gets used to the Scottish style of play - it is only a matter of time, getting behind him and having patience. Fans should do everything in moderation.

I've never booed the team while they were warming up or playing; but I can understand why people hurl abuse at players.  I'll openly admit to having done this myself, but through frustration more than anything.  When we're playing absolute gash, I know the team can perform better and it winds me up.  When I was at school, we were always told by our footy coach "if you give away possession, you get up off your arse asap and you bloody well fight for it back".  And it annoys me to see players just standing there looking amazed that someone has taken the ball from them or when the arms go up like they're about to burst in to the YMCA.  You lost the ball mucker - get it back!!!  I think that's one of the few things that kicks off my tourettes.  It's just infuriating when you're on a low income and you sacrifice other things to make sure you can make the games every week and they put on a poor performance.  I know that everyone has their off days and I know that it's not fair to yell abuse at players but, as previously said, heat of the moment has a lot to answer for!

Right, rant over! :011:

  I never boo people/teams but if we play sh1te eg. 3-0 motherwell then I think I deserve to let the team know how p1sh they were because quite frankly that game was a waste of money!

    However, it goes to show how bad a support we actually have when about 5 people (at most) can be heard criticising Rory and it makes this much of a deal.  If we had a louder/more vocal support then these people wouldn't be heard and the team would be grateful for recieving some vocal praise every week. The solution?

  Make more noise!!!!!

If it were only five people booing him whilst warming up then it's five people too many.  If they don't perform well during the game, different kettle of fish and this can and will lead to calls of " sort it out chaps", or "come on lads".

Good call jaggy thistle, frustration during games does lead to some strange shouts, but before the game..... give it a rest. 

sort it out chaps!  :018: