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Personally I can't think that any of the players give a toss what I say. But I disagree with your basic point which I take to be that what might be perceived as negative vibes on this forum will have a negative impact on the players. The whole point of the forum is to give folk the opportunity to voice their opinions and it is inevitable that we get some well informed, inteligent comment and some comment that is simply barking mad. Every one has their view and should be able to voice it. And so we will get some overly critical comments which you are free either to debate or ignore. How the players react to what we say is not really our concern. It's a fans' forum and not a players' one. In my view players should be told to ignore it. To be fair, I think there is very little negativity at the moment but let's not kid ourselves that things couldn't be better. I think nearly everyone feels that sitting 4th at this stage of the season is way beyond our expectatons but I think it is absolutely fair to express some concern about our home form and to debate that. The vast majority of teams do a lot better at home than away - teams in the SPL and ICT in particular seem to buck that trend. Our away form shows that we are a very good side indeed and if only we could translate that into home form then a top 6 finish would be a dead cert and a European spot would be a very realistic target. It isn't the rantings of ill informed amateurs like me on this forum that will play on the minds of the players, it is theconstant mood of discontent amongst the crowd and the shouts of frustration when there are misplaced passes etc. That simply must add to the pressure the players feel. This is a very valid thread led off well with a good post from IHE. So let's voice any concerns here and not at the stadium.

Lots of unhappiness on the boards after yesterday's result, and the main complaint appears to be that we had very little creativity going forward. I was struck by this comment from ajsict92, a poster who always speaks a lot of sense IMO: I wonder what people's opinions are on whether Sanchez could perform this role? He took a lot of criticism last season for missing easy chances, but I was always struck by his ability to put his foot on the ball and make passes that our other players couldn't seem to see. Eric at times has looked dangerous breaking from midfield, but seems to be more effective when running on to loose balls, whereas Sanchez, to me at least, looks more composed doing something with the ball from a more or less stationary position. He made a big difference to the game when he came on at Easter Road this season yet since then has barely featured, even from the bench. Should he get his chance from the start against Killie?

Had a feeling we'd get this kind of reaction the first time we suffered a hiccup. Some people seem to have slid into the mindset that Butcher and the Players are infallible. Perhaps not surprising given how well things have gone over the last 12 months, but one poor game hardly signals any impending doom. Yeah, mistakes were made, but when things have been going so well it must be hard to recognise or accept that we're in need of some changes...if indeed we are. I don't think yesterdays game was nearly as bad as some are making out and as I have said already, it looked to me like it was largely down to tired legs....or the fact that, having had more rest of late, the other team simply had a bit more in the tank than we did. Most of our squad haven't had a rest since day one, and they've been out there every week giving their all. I, for one, am not surprised if a few of them are in need of a little R'n'R. People need to take a step back and realise that the great run we were on was always going to suffer a bit of turbulence at some point. The fact we sustained it for as long as we did without a "major" upset is a miracle in itself. Let's not fall into the trap of thinking we are better than any team, or that any game should bring us guaranteed points as that would be arrogance personified. Get the frustration/disappointment out of the system by all means, but no need for knee-jerk reactions and calling for this, that or the next player to be dropped or hung out as the fall guy. As for Butcher, this is the guy who orchestrated our immediate return to the SPL, who has taken us 12+ months unbeaten on the road in any league encounter and currently has us sitting in the upper half of the premier league, well ahead of teams with bigger budgets and larger resources....I think we can forgive him the odd mistake.

Being belted at school A mock chop and chips at Renzos behind the college. Gunsmiths selling guns Your feet getting stuck to the carpet whilst dancing in the Hebridean The Columba having a great bar Having a good night out in Berties Driving down the high street One thing I don't miss (Stinging eyes from smoke, fag burns on clothes, Waking up the morning after with hair and clothes that absolutely stink of fags, any smoker would disagree with this of course, just like a fish factory worker would say they cant smell fish.) Seeing as its Christmas the words between the brackets don't exist and is just a figment of your imagination as I don't want to offend smokers at this time of year.

Just a small point but I just wish they could do something about throw ins.

Esson Duff, Tokely, Munro, Shinnie Duncan, Cox Ross, Sanchez, Foran Rooney Subs: Tuffey, Innes, Gillet, McBain, Blumenshtein, Odhiambo, Sutherland

ARGH! Not another topic on a singing section! But yes the atmosphere on Sunday was really poor. Aside from the goal there wasn't really too much to get excited about in the first half from an ICT perspective especially with St. Mirren dominating the opening period.

Tactics There is definately an issue in terms of the team looking to play on the counter attack at home. Is this Butcher's tactis or simply the team being very comfortable in playing this way? I would actually suggest to some extent the latter (which is understandable given the success away from home). After the goal was scored on Sunday the team very much dropped deep in an attempt to close out the space in the final third, however this clearly is not as effective at home for some reason. In fact even this was not even done effectively with Foran in particular often sitting too deep to provide cover for Shinnie and then moving forward too late to see the ball simply popped past him. He has to either sit in at this point or the whol eteam has to compress the game up the park. The amount of time which the St Mirren back four had to find a pass was almost embarrasing. Under very little pressure (i.e. only Rooney) it was not surprising that eventually they were able to pick out the front two - one a big lug and the other a highly mobile and pacy player. How often did our back four have time on the ball? Certainly against the weaker teams, we need to engage the opposition further up the park and put pressure on the passer. Most teams at this level do not have players who are technically capable of playing a fast one touch type game (I accept that we may need to be a bit more cautious against Rangers and Celtic otherwise we may run out of gas too quickly by overpressing - see the first game of the season!) Support I'm not sure we will ever find an answer to this issue, however having attend many English Premier League games the difference in atmosphere is incredible (even allowing for the difference in crowd size) and I am not simply talking about singing. The most noticible thing is when there is a goal scoring opportunity or dubious refereeing decision almost the whole ground is on their feet being involved. It actually seems that a lot of the crowd just don't seem to care enough about the rsult. Is this a symptom of a relatively young team or a less 'working class' support? I do think we have gone backwards since Don "gave up" the role of Announcer. We now just have a few songs and the team quickly read out a few minutes before the game. The match starting is now almost an anti-climax.

I am meeting with TB at his house on Wednesday afternoon and - as a talisman - I am going to suggest: Esson Duff Tokes Munro Shinnie Ross Duncan Cox Foran Sutherland Rooney

Whilst all that is true, I would suggest you forgot the bit about how we (and the opposition) know virtually nothing of the player either having not seen him for months ...... Perhaps Butcher saw something in training that we do not hve the opportunity to see and thought he could do something in the final few moments. Not really, if Butcher had indeed seen something then he would've put him on far far earlier than the 89th minute, or started him in the first place. And anyway, with the way the game had gone, Butcher could've thrown Lionel Messi at that point and it wouldn't have made any difference. Had he put Gil and Odhiambo on at about the hour mark, then that would have made sense and possibly changed the game, but by the 80th it was essentially lost.

Yes, I agree, the manager should shoulder some blame when things go wrong, or the game plan doesnt work, and TB must take his fair share of that for yesterday, but last week's saint seems to be this week's sinner and the truth of the matter is that no matter how many alterations he can make or tweaks he can suggest, the one thing he cannot do is make players play well if they are having an off day .... Whilst all that is true, I would suggest you forgot the bit about how we (and the opposition) know virtually nothing of the player either having not seen him for months ...... Perhaps Butcher saw something in training that we do not hve the opportunity to see and thought he could do something in the final few moments. FFS , we are not world beaters, and we will not win every game, and we will even lose some games in an awful manner where it appeared we didnt perform very well or in some eyes even try (like yesterday) ... but the one thing that gets to me more and more these days is our fans .... Last week TB/MM were saints, lauded by everyone and one shake short of a feckin knighthood, this week they are a stain on the carpet or something on the bottom of someone's shoes ...... such mood swings really should be investigated by someone with the qualificatons of IHE !!!

This isnt just a TB thing ..... its a malaise that has blighted us since the early days .... I have never had a worry when we are playing the OF or other teams we might have regarded as 'big' at the time. The motivation seems to take care of itself. Its when we are playing teams that we might just get complacent about that I worry. I have seen it happen all the way through the divisions, not just in the SPL. We get complacent, we think we just have to turn up and win and we come away with what we deserved .... usually nothing ! Seems we did it again yesterday ...... so lets get our feet on the ground again, draw a line under this small blip and get back to winning ways in midweek ......

Exceptionally disappointing scoreline. Lets face it, we have been riding our luck for a while now. That was a shambles. While Terry Butcher has been magnificent for this club so far, that was one of his poorest days yet. Wrong players in wrong positions and subs not being made when we were dying on our feet. A blind man could see that a number of our players were just going through the motions. Where were the cavalry, too little too late. What has Sanchez done to upset the big man? He has plenty skill but can't get a game. We need to freshen up for the Killie game, if not it will be more of the same drivel. Rooney can't buy a goal just now, when we need someone to finish off the build up. That's none in four games, not going anywhere with that strike rate. Our midfield were terrible yesterday, no playmaker, just guys watching the ball pass them by. Well done Esson, at least you showed some class. Lot's of unhappy bunnies yesterday. Well done to St Mirren for reminding us that we are just mediocre.

We didn't particularly miss Hayes yesterday - we were poor because too many of the more senior players were poor and the tactics were poor. Sutherland, who came in instead was probably our best outfield player. We played better against Hearts when Hayes was playing but he had a very poor game and contributed little. We have enough good players in the squad - we just need enough of them to be on their game at the same time.

not impressed but.... this is really a bigger debate and could easily be moved to serious topics. we ALL have to pay a licence fee and the bbc are the company that gains from this, we should be entitled therefore to unbiased fair and even reporting but time and time again it has been shown that they can not or will not acknowledge the teams outside the old firm fairly, i did hear it mentioned i think on your call the other week that even if we played one of the in firm offf the park that the medias focus would not be on how well we have preformed but how poorly they have. it is a sad state of affairs to admit but this also goes further than the world of football and is frequently evident in all aspects of there broadcasting. it has to be said that is the licence fee really valid any more when the corporation is failing in being impartial and to live up to the needs/requests of the public? :irritated:

Pressure pushing down on me Pressing down on you, no man asked for Under pressure, that burns a building down Splits a family in two Puts people on streets Of course TB is under a degree of pressure - the Midden result just adds to the frustration of not being able to sustain the away form in our back yard. The Longman should be a fortress but we are using it as a Dump. At home we are 9th in the table, six points in front of Hammies who have two games in hand and only two points better off than Aberdire and St Jones Town who also have two games in hand Played 9 Won 2 Drawn 2 Lost 5 For 11 Against 13 GD -2 Points 8 Yellows 12 Reds 0 Away from home we are second in the table, six points behind Rangers and a point in front of the Jam Tarts and Cellic with two games in hand: Played 9 Won 5 Drawn 4 Lost 0 For 18 Against 9 GD +9 Points 19 Yellows 12 Reds 0 Those statistics really are amazing but - take away the Old Firm (good point against Rangers) and Jam Tarts (worst home preformance of the season for me) - and lets face it - dropping points to Midden, Hamilton, Well and St Jones Town should not happen. And it aint got antyhing to do with our disciplinary record either as it is identical at home or away - and here is another interesting wee stat - Shots at home (146) / Shots away (183) - Corners at home (92) / Corners away (124) - WTF ?? So what are the reasons ? 1. It would appear that the large majority of teams - other than the OF - are geared up to defend in depth and hit on the attack away from home - I dont think that we adapt to tackle this and I would say that our home formation and the selection should be different - as we tend to be static and go with who played well the week before. 2. We dont use the width as well at home - for some reason we dont pass as crisply and as accurately - and our concentration at times is simply wayward - that has simply got to be down to confidence and application. I bet that away from home that we go on to the pitch thinking that we can pinch at least a point and at home we go on with a degree of trepidation rite from the onset. 3. Ever see the heads go down away from home ? Ever see the heads go down at home ? 4. When we are facing adversity away from home there is positivity in the tactics and substitutions but at home it is trepidation as well - at away its a case of - feck it lets go fer it - and at home it is a case of better one point than none at all. 5. But sorry but the SUPPORT really is a major influence - enuff said. Personally a start for me would be an attacking philosophy and get beat 3-2 or 4-3 against Killie - if it meant a change. It simply has to be done Butcher is charasmatic but we need a sports psychology angle here: This has got a lot to do with self esteem, self confidence,stress /anxiety control, concentration and motivation. So lets start getting it rite on and off the pitch. See ya in Section G dudes. ?There can only be one state of mind as you approach any profound test; total concentration, a spirit of togetherness, and strength.?

surrounding areas might be unsuitable for the amount of fans rangers would bring but im sure it would be ok for us

I don't for a minute believe that any of them were tired, that's what they do for a living. I think what Butcher has achieved here is fantastic. But that does not get away from the fact that this was avoidable and nothing was done about it. Of course fans are going to be scunnered by it. Twnety minutes to go, we are searching for a breakthrough and we persevere with the same drivel that being dished out earlier. No subs until too late, chance lost if you ask me. That is where the tactics should have won us this game, but we let it drift away. Frustrating really, not knee jerk, just so avoidable.

" Sing when we're winning , we only sing when we're winning , sing when we're winning , we only sing when we're winning " . Which is why the away atmosphere is better .

For me, this game, with the way Kilamrnock play right now, it's important that ICT win this in the midfield. For that reason and the fact that Hayes is out, I'm going to go with a 4-3-3 - Esson Duff Tokely Munro Shinnie Sanchez Duncan Cox Sutherland Rooney Foran Subs - Tuffey, Odhiambo, Ross, Blumenshtein, Innes, Golabek, McBain