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It is quite clear that the option they are going for is the money from TV route. Screw the fans, screw the 32 "non-elite" teams, and although they (the teams) dont yet realise it, screw the other 8 non "super-elite" teams that will be in the SPL in Scotland. Everything is geared to making money for the OF to help them compete in Europe and that is something they will never do on the scraps we are fed from TV companies. Many clubs in other countries have more sitting in petty cash than we have in our whole income model for a year. Alex Ferguson could probably sponsor the SPL for a decade with the money he's lost down the back of his couch ! This plan was born in 2003 not 2010 and no amount of dressing up can persuade me that Mr McLeish's "review" was anything other than a smokescreen to get this plan which has been gathering dust on the shelf back into play. It was a bad idea 8 years ago and it was a bad idea 8 minutes ago. Doncaster's whole argument seems to stem around the "4 home games" that each club will lose in a league of 16 (no mention of 14 funnily enough). It proves just how one dimensional the man is .... ok, I agree, a league of 16 is really terrible, its absolute nonsense, it would never work and the person who thought it up should be locked up (sarcasm) .... for a start we would only play each team once at home and once away which I suggest would enhance crowds not decrease them ... if you know you are only going to see Celtic once at the TCS each year then maybe the attendance would be 7750 instead of 6000. Multiply higher gates throughout the season and maybe the suggested shortfall would be made up .... take into account the lower costs (4 games where you are not paying out for stewards, police, heat, light, referees etc) and clubs may actually make more !!! Other than that, why doesnt he step back and look at alternatives ??? "What can we do to make it exciting ?". OK, we know the big two will likely still be the big two come the end of season so no need to tinker there (unless we make them do an end of season showcase with champions of England on TV?) ... but to help clubs make up for lost games, what might be the problem in taking the 6 other teams in the top 8 and make them play 2 legged playoffs (home and away) to decide European spots in a round-robin format (there's 5 home games straight away) .... and what about taking the bottom 8 and playing off for relegation spots or seedings in next year's cups or something ..... lots to tinker with but there are ways to generate games and if there are consequences or benefits to these games then fans will be interested ..... hell, if I can come up with that at 6-30am while typing, before my first coffee of the day, and without really thinking about it, I am sure there are a thousand other ideas that are better !!!! One final point to ponder ..... Fans are nothing in this equation. Their views are ignored and this twat speaks down to us like we are a stain on his ill fitting suit or a turd on his leather look shoes .... Its the TV money thats attractive ..... but Mr Doncaster, where does that money come from ??? Yes thats right, it ultimately comes from the fans who subscribe to the channels or buy the products the advertisers on the channel buy airtime for. No fans = no coverage = no league. Please remember the words of a man whose indelible mark on Scottish football is far greater than the grease spot you will ever leave behind .... In the words of Mr Jock Stein - "Football without the fans is nothing" .... Go for your TV deals, go for your 10 seats at the table instead of 12, go for ignoring 76% of the teams in Scotland just like you ignore the wishes of 88% of fans ... but once fans tire of the format again (very quickly no doubt), and you are left facing another crisis - of your own short-sighted making - please remember those words of Mr Stein as you reflect on your murder of the most popular sport to ever grace our shores !!!

Might want to organise a whip round for the fine

I've made myself a promise - if we beat Rangers tonight I will buy myself a new TV and an iPhone...I've been looking for an excuse to get both but I'm so wussy about spending money. So an upset tonight could be a bit expensive...but it would totally be worth it!

I'll poo in a paper bag put it on Neil Doncasters doorstep, set light to it, ring the bell and run away.

No Kenny Miller tonight

Doubt it. No one outside of Scotland really cares about Scottish football and by that I mean fans of Italian clubs etc not ICT fans living in another country. That said this article is interesting reading... http://arabtrust.co.uk/current/?454-deportivo-fans-opinion-of-the-spl

The only 10 team SPL I'd be interested excludes the old firm. :irritated:

Thats why i have sarted a group on Facebook. First plan is to get as many fans, from as many clubs as possible to join. The next step is to throw some ideas about regarding what would be the best plan of attack. Thirs step...hopefully enuff fans would would do more than just talk the talk, and get of their asses and protest en masse! Think the likes of Facebook are great for communicating and spreading the word, but not so good for organising and getting things done. Before anything can/should be done, we first need to get informed, we need to get as much information from what happened/was proposed at todays meeting as possible and communicate that to the fans. Given ICT's position, I wouldn't envisage us having any problem getting the information, and it's maybe an idea that the Supporters Trust speak to George Fraser (which I am sure they will do anyway) and them organise a fans meeting at the stadium in order to communicate that to us. The meeting should be open to anyone, including fans of other teams who live in the area, as this is not ultimately about just ICT and the more people involved the better. Hopefully other Supporters Trusts up and down the country would be willing to repeat the exercise and once all these meetings have taken place then representatives from each can arrange to bring all the information, questions and issues together so that our concerns can be presented in a strong, single voice to the necessary people and organisations. Any other action/protests/displays can also be co-ordinated in similar fashion.....better to have a widely identifiable "sign" of protest than lots of small groups doing their own thing and losing focus by turning heads in several directions trying to keep up.

Not for the first time, Neil Doncaster chose to distort the truth - If Inverness, Hearts and Kilmarnock were in preference of 14, then not everyone is in agreement. Not yet anyway. We've slagged off our board enough over the years (often with good reason). How about a big thumbs up for George Fraser for supporting the view of the fans?

Mega respect for TB regarding that interview. In my opinion he was 100% correct in everything he said. While were on the subject of respect I have to admire and take my hat off to all the fans that made the two trips down at this time of the year for the last two matches. I felt like an impostor as my total travel for both games was an measly 58 miles. Still I'm home now and enjoying a rather nice malt to console myself for a match that I thought we could have won or more fairly drawn. Rangers were there for the taking in my humble opinion.

Terry is a Legend. Not only is he passionate about football he loves ICT. A very articulate interview he knows how to stick it to the central belt morons! here's the link http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/9366087.stm

We could do with a striker in this transfer window, even if Rooney stays

Ayr put Hibs out of the cup !!!!

Dual screens .... Coffee Break .... Skiving .... pick whichever excuse works for you

why no russell?

Couldn't agree more that ICT have stood up and don't deserve to suffer, but how do you protest otherwise with bums on seats? Surveys and opinion polls blatantly aren't considered. Argurably the 'stay away protest' has been happening over the last few years with the decline in attendances but I think it's been too gradual for it to be considered as such. The reasons for people not attending en masse any more are more varied that simply protesting. I said in another thread I'd have to seriously think about whether I want to continue to spend my free time and disposable income on football and that decision includes my season ticket but I'll make a decision on that once the dust settles. Possibly a more effective protest would be for the supporters clubs/trusts across the country to organise 'NO TO 10 TEAM SPL' banners to be displayed in the stands or even something like a mass walk out or late turn up, perhaps after half time, which all clubs/trusts agree to as a day of action. Not everyone would walk out or turn up late but hopefully enough numbers to make the point would and send a message out.

I hope a way can be found to protest without hiting our own club in its already poor pockets. I really feel that the club has been doing its best to stand up and be counted and doesnt deserve to be the one that suffers.

What really annoys me is how Doncaster continually ignores the views of the fans. Without the fans there would be no football in Scotland yet he sees fit to push forward with plans which the majority of football fans are dead against. Some of the quotes attributed to him are laughable at best. This quote from Doncaster really annoyed me; 6 different winners in the last 6 years? that to me doesnt sound weak, it sounds competitive. While the first division may not be glamourous or full of super-rich teams buying European superstars it is a highly competitive league full of teams trying to play football and trying to win the league which almost any team has a chance of. Clearly Doncaster doesnt want a competitive league, he seems happy for the SPL to continue to be a closed shop and dominated by the Old Fim. I have no faith in this man to rescue or indeed improve scottish football in any way whatsoever.

And, before I go to bed, the other question is ..."What part has the T.V. Revenue played in all this?" And..." If Mr George Fraser, who is a very shrewd business man, thinks that a 14 -team SPL was viable then what were the criteria and forces at work here that jockeyed the other rebels , or bullied them, into apparent submission. And, remember when the barstewards tried to prevent ICT from joining the SPL and forced us to go to Pittodrie to get our chance,we had a petition going on our webpage which garnered a lot of signatures and won the day. I think we should do it again and contact all the website forums of as many other clubs as possible to rally their support. As for boycotting? --not yet. That will only hurt George Fraser and the Club when they need our support the most. Wait until the Old Firm games come up and go to all the home matches but walk out after 20 minutes enmasse, as someone has suggested,and demonstrate outside the stadium peacefully to attract media atention and DO NOT GO AT ALL to Ibrox and Parkhead for every other match. Don't put a cent into the pockets of Rangers or Celtic .

It's not really a vote, it's a which is your favourite and if it's the same as ours and your stupid enough to give us all the information we need to steal your identity on a non-encrypted web page then we'll stick you in a prize draw.

The more you think about the proposal being championed by the SPL beaks, the scarier it gets. For a start, they would have to introduce the same "criteria" for membership of the SPL2 as they do for SPL1 in regards to Stadia, USH, Licensing etc. Partly because every one of the 20/22 teams that are a member of the SPL would have to be governed by the same rules and partly because a failure to create a level playing field would, in effect, leave us with a league structure that has two MASSIVE points of failure....... One of the arguments used is that they can create a better play-off situation and have more meaningful games.....however, what happens if (when) you get the following..... 1. Champions of SPL2 fail to meet criteria for SPL1 and/or Teams in play off position at upper end of SPL2 fail to meet criteria for SPL1, who gets promoted (if anyone) and do you have several sets of play off rules depending on how many teams you have who meet the criteria? 2. Champions of whatever league/s exist below the SPL2 fail to meet the SPL2 criteria and/or those in play off places fail to meet SPL2 criteria.....same problem as above. You end up with meaningless play off games as the teams can't go up anyway or you have no play off games at all and those much anticipated play-off money spinners that everyone was looking forward too don't transpire. How happy are the TV companies, sponsors, advertisers, fans, clubs going to be then? What you effectively end up with is the continuation of a system which encourages and nigh on insists that smaller clubs spend beyond their means in order to be able to advance up the leagues....only instead of one bottle neck you have two and you force the pressure to spend further down the tables and on to teams who are even less well equipped to meet the financial requirements than the teams whom the burden currently lies on. It's proved devastating enough for Div1 teams who aspire to play in the SPL to be spending the money required for unneeded infrastructure, absolutely no way that Div2 teams could afford it. The alternative for those clubs outwith the SPL1/2 setup is to accept their lot and give up any hope they might have of promotion to the upper leagues. How can either of those scenarios be good for the game? They would be just as well saying "We're going to cut the number of senior clubs in Scotland in half and have a single 22 team league"....it would generate the same outcome, get rid of two thirds of the administration, spread the money more evenly and at least you'd be saved from the monotony of playing the same teams over and over and over. The 10/12 setup makes even less sense than the 10/10 setup, and the fact that the SPL are now peddling this idea makes them look even more incompetent than they already did. The big argument from the start has been "We need to do it for the money"...so why does adding another two teams into the mix make it more financially attractive than before? Could it be that taking all 10 Div1 teams into the fold simply makes it easier to sell to the SFL and SFA as it removes the need for any reconstruction on their part? One other glaringly worrying thing in all of this is why are the SFA sitting back and allowing the SPL to decide what is good for football in Scotland? Here we have an organisation who split away from the rest and who's main reason for doing so was because they felt they could make more money for themselves. What's changed? Why should we suddenly believe that their motives for change now are any different than the motives for creating the organisation in the first place? What's more, why should they be allowed to call all the shots and why isn't it the SFA who are leading the way in bringing about any change that may be needed? They (the SFA) are the senior association in Scotland, the SFL and SPL only operate under license to them and the SPL should have been smacked into place the moment they started talking about "restructuring Scottish Football". In fact, what do the SFA actually do these days? I'm half hoping, but not holding my breath, that the SPL will go to them with their proposal and the SFA will just go...."nah, no thanks, get back in your box....and while you're there, pack your things because you've made enough of a mockery of the game and we're pulling the plug on you"....we can but dream!!!

Shoes off!!

Fans without the rose tinted specs. The Spl attempting to paint a rosy picture. Those immune from relegation (the OF). Mr Bennett's vote.

OK, so it seems that we have a continued consensus that a 10 team top league is not acceptable to the fans on this thread.....so what do we do about it? Are people really that outraged that they are willing to step up, take action and be counted or are they just full of hot air and going to do as they always do....sit back and hope that someone else will fight the fight for them?

I would sincerely like them to explain to the fans - 80/90% of whom were against this setup - how 10-12 will develop the game of football in Scotland. This is pure and utter bullshit and nothing more than a cash grab by those with their noses already in the trough. It will do nothing to develop the game other than allow TV companies the guarantee of 4 old firm fixtures per year. If our club, who were quite vociferous in saying they were against this idea have capitulated, I will be very disappointed.

I dont think fans voting for Hayes are being 'fickle' or turning on Adam but in some cases it may indeed be the "coping mechanism" referred to. Many seem resigned to losing Adam, and if it helps them cope better by thinking Jonny will be our saviour then fair play to them. I have said in numerous threads that I would love Rooney to stay at ICT for as long as we can keep him (and I mean it) but given a poll choice of only two options, and no option to say "neither, everyone is important" I also voted for Hayes. My reason for voting for Hayes is nothing to do with "coping" and everything to do with the roles within the team ..... How many good goalscorers have we had over the years ? Wyness, Stewart, Ritchie, McLean, Thompson, Dargo, even Brewster ..... compare that to how many effective and exciting wingers we have had ..... Wilson & Robson .... any others? Hayes is an exciting midfielder who can make things happen. Rooney is a striker who can score goals, both are extremely important and without either one of them we are in trouble but the bottom line is that difficult though it will be to replace a striker who has scored 46 in just over 100 appearances, it can be done, but our own history shows it has been harder to replace a good winger.

Hmmmm - - Esson - - Tokely - - Cox - - Duff - - Duncan - Ross - - Sanchez - - Foran - - Shinnie - - Sutherland - - Rooney - Lets go nuts and attack them from the off. They'll never know what hit em!

Just watched the Motherwell highlights. Why oh why are the SFA so pro county? That handball was clearly in the box. My mate said that his mate was in school with the nephew of whoever the ref was, and he told me that he knows for a fact hat the ref is a county fan. He even had a Neil Tarrant window sticker on his car. I think we should move our club to England and play there as it's quite obvious, that all the refs in this country, are against us. I expect that the decision will be discussed for three months and I fully expect our chairman to get his lawyers on the case.

With Hayes out just now Rooney is finding it hard to get on the recieving end of some decent balls and IMO thats why he is looking a shadow of his old self. The gap between midfield and attack today was far too great and Rooney was up on his own too often for my liking today.

with the prospect of a ten team league a possibility just wondering how far people would be prepared to go in protest.... personally i am having a good think about getting a season ticket next year and as it stands this is not helping things. i may still go to the odd game but it is looking less likely that i will be prepared to spend ?300+ when we have a one in four chance of relegation.(i know these arent the actual odds but one team out of every four will go down) im not sure i want to spend that much money on something that may well be well out with our control as a club which annoys me as i want to support them but im starting to feel that its going to be harder to do this

how...interesting...oh how I love to shoot people...

I'm sure this will make up Adam's mind for him. What a ridiculous post!

i dont think it is clear cut and that doncaster has counted his chickens to early we all know that george fraser was against them while the others must have folded but on in the sun yes not the best factual paper in the world but it claims that killie did vote and that michael johnson is admarent that he hasnt changed his mind and now the bbc look to show that it is clear cut i think doncaster has been spinning it to show to keep quiet about dissent http://www.thesun.co...948/U-Turn.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/9365459.stm

Can someone please translate this for me ?

I think we should have songs for every player in the team, so far the only players I can think of us having a song for are Hayes, Rooney, Esson, Foran, Odhiambo, Tokely, and Cox which leaves quite a few who are "songless". My suggestions would be: For Nick Ross - Nick Ross will tear you apart again to the tune of Joy Division's "Love Will Tear Us Apart" - http://www.youtube.c...yy1ToI&ob=av3nl For Dani Sanchez (yes it's slightly gay ) - I'm your biggest fan I'll follow you until you love me Dani Sanchez, Dani Sanchez to the tune of Paparazzi by Lady Gaga Any more?