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My mail to ESPN: Dear Sir/Madam I write with regards to your article dated 14th March 2011 entitled ?Celtic and Aberdeen Set for Rematch?. I was under the impression that Celtic were yet to play their Scottish Cup Quarter Final fixture away to Inverness Caledonian Thistle and Aberdeen were to host St. Mirren in a replay at Pittodrie after scraping an injury time equaliser in Paisley. I must therefore congratulate your journalist's ability to forecast the outcome of both matches with such clarity. In light of the foregoing I have returned my match ticket for Wednesday's rearranged fixture in Inverness and will invest said funds in a Celtic/Aberdeen double. Could you possibly advise the winner of Friday's Cheltenham Gold Cup in order that I may invest my winnings on the above bet accordingly. Yours faithfully, ymip I'm not holding my breath for a response.

Maybe the real issue is less about numbers than the kind of supporter the typical refusenik is/was. As Mantis says, these were generally younger, fanatical, working class types and not at all like the sweetie rustling, tartan rug brigade that ICT seem to attract for whatever reason.

So have you made your mind up then Mr Mantis the more I think about both scenarios its remarkable how similar the football communities of Nottingham and Inverness are Forest like Caley being the greater team with the better players, more money, better ground and a much larger support I can't help but laugh out loud at the ex jaggies that claim that they had all the money men who were allegedly regulars at Kingsmills, from what i've been told and the few online photos of Kingsmills park i've seen, then why did their ground resemble something like a scene from Beirut at the height of the troubles Any money men would have pumped the cash into the Scottish league team regardless of who the team was I personally think the jags were on their last legs and they only had one chance of survival and that was to cling perilously on to Caley's tail because they would have been dead and buried within a season had Caley gone solo. You only have to look at the sorry state Clach find themselves in at the moment to back up my claim Had I been a Jaggie I reckon I would have fallen into the refusenik camp, there is no way I could watch a merged team who play in blue, hear only Caley chants from the fans and listen to virtually everybody in Inverness including the local and national media refer to the team as Caley. Lucky for us you weren't here then Had I been Caledonian I would have voted NO to a takeover and I would have wanted Caley to go alone because other than the sale of Kingsmills Thistle were bringing absolutely nothing to the party. Who invested the most in this new club? What I find galling is that clubs who were inferior to Caledonian on and off the park got Scottish League entry(yer Ross Countys,Peterheads,Elgins,Gretnas and Annans etc) Whats galling about that The fact that Gretna reached the SPL and County made a Cup final apperance makes a mockery of all the clowns on here that claim Caley would never have achieved what ICT have done. Gretna made a mockery of Scottish Football Lets not beat about the bush Caledonian FC would be in the exact same position that ICT find themselves in at this moment with a greater and more loyal fanbase as there would be a lot less disharmony in the City. Nobody will ever know the answer to that but I doubt it. dougal Dougal, Caledonian FC were the largest and most successful Highland League club but I still hold that, had they gone it alone, they'd be in the same leagues as the Elgins, Peterheads etc you mention. Gretna doesnt count because that was one mans obsession to prove he could buy a non league football team and take them to the top league within five years. He done it, he spent his fortunes doing it and his team died with him. You say Thistle took nothing to the party. I say Thistle took David Sutherland and his money to the party. Without that and his business accumen we would still be playing Elgin and Montrose. What I find very galling about you Dougal is your persistance in trying to stir the chit at every opportunity. If your intention is to try and breed unrest among ICT fans then you'd better go back to the drawing board. We are here on this site for this club that is ICT. We have accepted the events of 18 years ago and we all stand together now, in the same stand, to support the same team. We dont dig up the past, other than in nostalgic reflection. We look to the future and the success of ICT.

No, EXACTLY that number voted NO when the merger question was put for a second time on 1st December 1993 and that was the biggest vote against any apsect of the merger that there ever was at any Caley meeting. Let's also remember the circumstances surrounding the number rising to as high as 226 after 50 had voted against on 9th September. Both sides of the debate within Caley recruited furiously for about two months in order to pack as many people as they could into that Rose Street meeting in a desperate bid by both sides for their will to prevail. So really, that 226 is absolutely dead strength among those who felt that way. Anyone within geographical supporting range and remotely inclined not to attend ICT matches was in there. We also know that a great number of these people, and most of them sooner rather than later, have been coming to games. I also wish posters would stop quoting attendance figures on this thread which are totally irrelevant to the subject. Yes, there may well have been "2000 plus" at Scottish Cup ties but, given a core home support of about 500, I find it difficult to believe that too many of this 2000 plus, who always emerged out of the woodwork for the glorious moments, were rabid, diehard Caley fans who felt so passionately about their club that they resolved never to darken the door of the new one. Out of a core home support of about 500, the majority of whom have for a long time come to games, you just can't get a number of refuseniks of any significant magnitude. If you want to add in a figure for Jags refuseniks, then, like everything else, you have to take a proportionally much smaller number. Then there's the suggestion that there are "at least 20" refuseniks at one work place. That reminds me of the story I saw in a paper today about a search to trace any of the 19 (nineteen) people who apparently attended a Beatles concert in Dingwall before the Fab Four became famous(no off topic jokes please!) You could more or less guarantee that 50 of these 19 will, like Celtic fans who were allegedly in Seville, make themselves known! But the absolute bottom line of this whole tale is - the number of refuseniks, however small, actually doesn't matter. Without their presence, ICT rose through the ranks to the top table of Scottish football within a decade and there it remains. Any other arrangement which suited the wishes of these refuseniks would have had no chance of having done so. So in the words of the Lord High Executioner in The Mikado - "they will none of them be missed!"

As one of the oldest posters on here I thought I'd throw my tuppence worth into the 'refusenik' debate. The many of you who don't remember 'old money' won't know what tuppence is, but no matter ... I started watching Caley in 1949, aged about 7. My first match was actually at the Clach park. Caley won 2-0 and I was hooked. I watched them all through the 50s, visiting every Highland league ground in the process, plus quite a few others in Scottish Cup away days. I was priviliged in that time to watch the best ever Caley side, 51 to 53ish, with Bobby Bolt, Ginger McKenzie, Willie Bruce, Joopy Mitchell etc etc. Happy days! I went off to college in about 1960 and never really lived in Inverness again, apart from about 18 months in 63/64. But I still followed Caley's fortunes from a distance, and had I been in Inverness at the time leading up to the merger, I would definitely voted against it. At that time I felt Caley should have 'gone it alone'. Looking back now I have to admit that, had that happened, their destiny would have been much the same as the other 3 who managed to do it alone (ie predominately lower leagues with occasional forays into the second top tier). I'm happy to say that I quickly embraced ICT and over the past 17 years they have put me through all the emotions that I ever experienced with Caley - elation when we win, despair when we lose, frustration, anticipation, excitement - the whole lot. I get up to see ICT live about half a dozen times a season, plus I see their TV games and obviously watch all the highlights. On top of that I have converted many friends down here in Englandshire to be ICT supporters too. There must be at least 20 who have adopted ICT as their Scottish team, and it is always the first thing we talk about when we meet up. So, to sum up, I feel sorry for the 'refuseniks'. It is they who, through their 'dog in the manger' attitude, have missed out on 17 wonderful years, with I hope, many more to come.

Here son, I'll crack the jokes.

Dear all, I have recieved an answer from St. Mirren after their General manager and I missing each other's calls over a week or so. The upshot is that the Steward concerned was dismissed as soon as the CCTV footage was reviewed. The matter was fully discussed at their safety meetings and the outcomes explained to me. St. Mirren offered an apology and tickets to the next fixture between the two clubs, which was accepted and the matter closed. I would emphasise that St. Mirren were open and helpful throughout and their General Manager (Brian Caldwell) was genuine and professional at all times. If only every Club were as good. Can I thank everyone who PM'd support and information on this and other Boards.

Has been selected for an U-21 friendly in Belgium on friday 25th March.

What going on? its a big game tomorrow night and a dougal thread is creating more interest regarding something that even Dr Who cant be bothered to go back in time to find out who the disgruntled 8 were. Since that date we Have beaten Celtic twice and were 4 minutes away from making it a hat trick of wins over Celtic in the cup,which orchestrated the departure of Barnes and what a result beating Celtic with the well respected manager Martin O Neil in charge. Its not going well for Celtic, a wasted journey up north, whilst Rangers narrow the gap in the league with a game in hand, they now have to come up here with the fear of losing to a Highland team again with the pressure of expectation weighted on their shoulders and have to face up to a solid Inverness side who will play with no fear, only days prior to an Old Firm cup clash. Never mind what the teams plans are, Terry and Mo have got that well sorted. What are the warm up plans for the Highland savages that ICT fc can proudly call fans. Stand up for the Caley Jags Bring on the Celtic and make it a night to remember.

To be serious, the key is total commitment. This match is the last thing Celtic want. We've humbled them before and they have a very important match against Rangers at the weekend. They are on a hiding to nothing so we need to be right into them and pressurising them all the time. We need to keep it tight at the back as the worst thing will be to lose and early goal. I've got a good feeling about this one. :ictscarf:

Not Lennon. He'll think he's looking in a mirror.

I feel I should add that we have one young fan in Tokyo, although he's not even one yet, and had no choice in the matter because the top was bought for him (anything to put him of baseball), his dad as well, whom I believe is a vouyer on this site, and one regular attendite of the dump on the North Island, touring whilst visiting her son. They are all regular folks, and are ok, but please also remember the other 17'000 Britons and thousands of Europeans whom come from big economies, but as immigrants, might not have built up enough cash to get them through this.

I disagree with the notion that we should not help. Every country in the world has its own problems but a tragedy on this scale transcends national boundaries. I heard a figure quoted on the radio yesterday that suggested that just to get back to square one, let alone to rebuild everything, it was going to take somewhere in the region of 200 billion US dollars. and that is before you even consider if things may get even worse with nuclear problems. The Japanese are a resilient hard working people, they are also a rich nation, and they will pour resources and extreme effort into their own recovery, but even they need help to recover from this one. Normal people - working people - just like you and me have lost everything and although the country may be collectively rich, many of the people are not, just like Canada, US, UK, and everywhere else. I hear the notion of "charity begins at home" and I cant argue with that too much, especially in these economic times ... if thats your opinion, then you are certainly entitled to it and you may have a point, but personally, I would look to governments to stop wasting so much money on other things - like ?65 light bulbs, or Canada (and Toronto) spending over 1 billion dollars to host last year's G20 weekend of mayhem - and maybe then there would be enough to go around both at home and globally wherever and whenever humanitarian aid really is needed. In the last year or two we have had huge natural disasters in Chile, Haiti and Pakistan and now on top of the disaster in Japan we also have conflict in Egypt & Libya with Bahrain looking likely to be the next powderkeg. Each and every one of those events, whether natural or man-made affects your life whether you realise it or not. How much has petrol gone up in the UK since the start of the year? In Toronto its about 33% !!! How much more does everything cost because transportation costs more? How uncertain are aspects of your life because the economy is poor? Yes we should try to fix things at home - wherever that may be for each of us - but we should also start to think on a global scale because what happens in this ever shrinking world has a ripple effect on us all.

?Common sense is the knack of seeing things as they are, and doing things as they ought to be done.?

Japan may have a bigger economy than us, but I don't think any economy could stand up to a disaster of this magnitude. They may have the money, but not all at once.

and his Scotland U-17 colleagues failed to make the finals of the European U-17 championships at the weekend. After holding Italy to a 0-0 draw they beat Slovakia 2-0 but could only manage a 1-1 draw against Czech Republic. The young Scots were only 18 minutes away from the finals when the Czech's equalised. The lads were unlucky not to go on to the finals but come home with heads held high and a sign that there are some good footballers coming through the ranks. Liam started all three games and reports suggest he done very well.

im presuming lee camp will start he's been quality for nottingham forrest the last two seasons

To revive an old saying on these forums (or I should really say "fora"!) "I agree with Mantis!" You've got it straight from the horse's mouth there.... from one of the many "NO" voters who followed and supported ICT after the deal was done and the club formed. And he is telling you that a large number of the 226 who voted against the merger in December 1993 have become supporters. But of course there's always the anecdotal stuff when someone claims to know someone who is a refusenik.... therefore Inverness is full of refuseniks. In about 2086 (and I choose the date deliberately) we will, with echoes of the Battle of the Somme, be hearing that the last living Caley Refusenik is still in a nursing home on Telford Street, bumping his gums away on a Howden End pie from the stock he took away and froze in October 1996. I really have to commend Dougal who does an incredible job on here getting debate going.... even though it's usually about outdated or irrelevant p!sh. He seems to have a talent for identifying issues which get people posting on here... just look at the length of this thread for instance! He even shows quite a good understanding of some of these issues, including this one, and his last post does state some sense... but also a lot of nonsense although I'm now sufficiently punchdrunk with this subject no longer to be bothered replying line by line. However I would want to give this summary of the contribution of Thistle.... The Inverness merger was essentially an unequal one and finding the right balance of inequality is what created a lot of the problems. At one point it was (correctly) stated that Caley had 70% of the assets, 80% of the membership (albeit only after rabid recruiting in advance of the meetings) and 90% of the fundraising capacity. Thistle on the other hand did contribute £486,000 from the sale of Kingsmills and the proceeds of the sale of their Social Club. Believe me - half a million quid in the desperately tight financial arithmetic of the construction of the stadium was absolutely vital. However the presence of BOTH clubs in the arrangement, even after the departure of Clach, gave it the status of representing the whole of Inverness and not just one of the town's three Highland League clubs. This was a very important "added value" which meant that the joint bid had FAR more clout than any single one could have had and as a result FAR more support was forthcoming from the public purse (£1.8M) and local businesses. It also brought neutrals in because - like it or not - there was always a significant dislike of "the Caley" within Inverness. In consequence, the merged bid which went in front of the SFL in January 1994 was far, far more potent than anything a single team could have raised. The option of any single club bid effectively died on September 9th 1993 when both clubs voted to merge. Although applications did not close until 1st October, no single bid could physically have been put together after that. So it was the merger or nothing. The bottom line is that few people in 1993 would have envisaged Inverness having SPL football by 2004, far less retaining it more or less unbroken for many years. Nor would it have ever had SPL football if Caley had decided to go it alone - which they so nearly did and I believe would have done if the Carse Scheme had gone ahead in 1992. So, ironcially, although the ditherers on the District Council nearly caused disaster at one point, their dithering over the Carse was a major factor in ensuring that Inverness is in the SPL and not just another Alloa, Brechin or Peterhead. EDIT - while I was posting this, Alex was talking a lot of sense in the post now immediately above. In particular, if creating dissent is Dougal's aim, then there is NO chance of him doing that with any of the topics he starts. This one, for instance, is as Alex says merely of nostalgic and in my own case academic interest.

So have you made your mind up then Mr Mantis the more I think about both scenarios its remarkable how similar the football communities of Nottingham and Inverness are Forest like Caley being the greater team with the better players, more money, better ground and a much larger support I can't help but laugh out loud at the ex jaggies that claim that they had all the money men who were allegedly regulars at Kingsmills, from what i've been told and the few online photos of Kingsmills park i've seen, then why did their ground resemble something like a scene from Beirut at the height of the troubles Any money men would have pumped the cash into the Scottish league team regardless of who the team was I personally think the jags were on their last legs and they only had one chance of survival and that was to cling perilously on to Caley's tail because they would have been dead and buried within a season had Caley gone solo. You only have to look at the sorry state Clach find themselves in at the moment to back up my claim Had I been a Jaggie I reckon I would have fallen into the refusenik camp, there is no way I could watch a merged team who play in blue, hear only Caley chants from the fans and listen to virtually everybody in Inverness including the local and national media refer to the team as Caley Had I been Caledonian I would have voted NO to a takeover and I would have wanted Caley to go alone because other than the sale of Kingsmills Thistle were bringing absolutely nothing to the party What I find galling is that clubs who were inferior to Caledonian on and off the park got Scottish League entry(yer Ross Countys,Peterheads,Elgins,Gretnas and Annans etc) The fact that Gretna reached the SPL and County made a Cup final apperance makes a mockery of all the clowns on here that claim Caley would never have achieved what ICT have done. Lets not beat about the bush Caledonian FC would be in the exact same position that ICT find themselves in at this moment with a greater and more loyal fanbase as there would be a lot less disharmony in the City dougal

In 2000, after the game initially being postponed, we beat Celtic 3-1 at Parkhead before we were then drawn against Aberdeen. In the same round that we beat Celtic, they had to go to a replay to beat St Mirren 2-0 after drawing the first game 1-1. Could be an omen, and if so, hopefully we go one better than in 2000 and beat Aberdeen in the next round!

With great respect, I'm inclined to suggest the "big problems on our own doorstep" kind of pale into insignificance when compared with the problems presently being faced by Japan.

Actually quite like the idea .... the website is very informative and their benefits page actually throws up a few good ideas .... Lower insurance rates (match cancellation insurance) [do we have this ?] Up to 75% reduction in USH costs [I guess it needs to be on for shorter time] Sponsorship opportunities - branding on the cover itself [visible from A9 or before games on TV] A few years ago I would have said "no way" as the TCS was never a place to have many call-offs, but ever since the addition of USH we seem to be more vulnerable to waterlogging especially. It may not be viable as we have no idea of the costs, but no harm in getting a quote and letting the number crunchers figure out if there is any merit in it ... or not.

Were we really a much smaller report charles? i remember many games at Kingsmills where there was an abundance of jags fans and remember a fair few at telford St where the Howden end was far from full and the canal end was abundant in red and black fans. The original question however about refuseniks makes me think of at least two jags fans who have never watched ICT play and never will (Their loss) no matter how much i try to persuade them? I personally decided away back in 73? or whenever we lost out to Ferranti Thistle later to become Meadowbank later to become livingstone that i would support any inverness team to join the scottish league, Inverness utd or whatever it was decided to be called. We have to see the bigger picture and those that have decided with their small/narrow mindedness not to support a merged team have lost out on a wonderful journey, from beating arbroath in our first league game with Herchy's hat trick to the famous celtic game and the awful game where county humped us. It's been a fantastic journey which many of us could never have imagined back in those days and it's far from finished. This wonderful voyage goes on and on, up and down and hopefully for many many years our children and their children can enjoy the the magic of ICT

If there are any "refuseniks", nothing anyone can do to change their minds. Certainly not after this amount of time. So in my opinion.... f**k them. Their loss.

I think some people are burying their head in the sand when it comes to how many people refuse to watch ICT. In my work alone there is at least 20 people, fair enough its a big place and maybe they wouldn't go every week but they would go sometimes at least. As they do with their new teams Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen, CLACH! etc. But the thing is, merger was 17 years ago now. Lots of these people will now have kids who also refuse there kids to go to the games. So to say its 6 fans that don't go is wrong, really wrong. I'd say at least 500-1000 people either refuse or are not allowed to go to ICT matches. Not all fans were members or season ticket holders. You didnt need to be at ?1-?2 to get into a game at that time, there wasn't really a massive incentive then. As Charles says was it 226 people who voted against or around that number? Were Caley alone not getting crowds of 2000+ in there scottish cup adventures? Indeed I wasnt a Thistle season ticket holder or member and some of my mates werent either. Some of them havent set foot in an ICT match in Inverness. A bit silly to say then that at most around 100 people arent going to games. When you translate that into money over 17 years, its a lot!!

This may seem harsh but, while I sympathise with the Japanese and all they are going through. I can't help but feel that there are too many problems in the UK to be giving our money to other nations. Now they may not be on the same scale as the earthquake / tsunami but they are serious enough to have thousands out of work, companies going bust, people losing their homes etc. When the floods hit the Carlisle area and people lost everything the government said there wasn't enough money to help everybody but as soon as a foreign country has a crisis we send millions. Now I'm all for helping those less fortunate than us but get our own house in order first. Then and only then help others. Rant over.

Wow....just done a quick count on the poll voting and it seems the merger could have cost us as many as 7100 fans who now refuse to attend games!!! If we split the clubs again and operated a system where Caley played one week and Thistle the next, do you think we could win them all back?