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Drums have been fitted out with a couple of new skins and given a quick lick of paint on the worst parts to tidy them up a bit. There's also a couple of new sets of sticks there for you. All that's asked in return is that you make good use of them this evening.

We've arranged for IHE to sit next to Lennon in the stands, he's going to draw him in with is Celtic Tattoo and then ask if he wishes to see his other football tattoo. When the unsuspecting Lennon agrees he'll be subjected to the infamous Immortal Howden Rear-Ender. That should be enough to send him (anyone) over the edge.

It would be easy to blame the weak referee and all of the soft free kicks he awarded at the Celtic end for tonights result but this is starting to become a bad habit. The reality is we were the architects of our own downfall. Both of Ledleys goals were gifts from our makeshift defense. Highland league marking. Tactically we sat deep and seemed content to hoof the ball into empty space rather than try to construct a move for the majority of the match. When you make no effort to pass the ball or get men forward you don't deserve to win. I would rather 'we have a go' in a home game vs Celtic in the Scottish Cup quarter final and make a spectacle of it rather than play an ultra-defensive lineup and negative, scrappy football. For sure the players worked hard but for ?21 I would have preferred a bit more positive attacking football from us. Just found the game to be a bit of an anti-climax, meh.

I don't always agree with Charles Bannerperson but I have given him a green point in each of his last two posts because he talks common sense and I find his passionate presentations perfectly-polished, polite and proppa. Also, Charlie has a good brain (c'mon people, it's true) and the Pimple has tried to hack into it more than once and has been rebuffed in a state of perplexed confusion. No doubt it is his profession that has allowed him to build up his impenetrable, shy reserve (sometimes grossly mistaken by some of the younger set in the ICT proletariat as snobbery) but one day he will give it all up and finally be able to relax with a wee drammie in his hand and more than a tale of two cities on his professorial,literary lips. I raise my glass to a Man of Letters blue and Stalwart Statistics. A Lad O' Pairts, and no mistake. And to Caley Mad in Berks I seek to make his day by advising that he also has received a green dot for reminding us all of his advanced age and knowledge concerning the Jupie Mitchell, Ginger MacKenzie team which was my introduction to Caley at the even more advanced age of 11 years old at that precise moment in time. Who can forget the worn wooden steps of the tree-lined Telford Street terraces of yore? Yes, CMIB,these were the days and regarding those few remaining fans who still bears grudges about the Merger, I say a pox on all their houses. Just get off your huffy, backward-facing chairs and support the heroic ICT who have done us all VERY proud from the City of Inverness over these 17 long years of unbelievable advancement Against All Odds. Do not bear grudges because you are the ones who are losing out on some great games of football and, sadly, you are the loser not ICT.

Whatever the figure plucked out of the air is for 'refuseniks', Charles is surely right that there is no evidence, other than anecdotal and prejudicial, that the number was significant. Nor do I believe that any of them would have had significant influence on many others, including family members. Even if you dream up some fancifully large number, as some would like to do, it is more than offset by the numbers of new ICT fans who would not have been persuaded by a Caley or Thistle toiling in the lower leagues. The dreamers want to add a mythical number of refuseniks to the current base of ICT and claim that they would have all gone to watch a cash-strapped Caley playing in the Carse or wherever against Elgin and Brechin. It is all smoke, mirrors and whisky dreams. Nice bit of nostalgia and longing for the old days, but it ignores the amazing ride we've had with ICT, which we'd never had without the merger. If ICT had spluttered and failed and were mired in debt and stuck in div 2 or 3 then you might have a case. That ICT have been as astonishingly successful as they have proves the point: the merger worked. A few have fallen by the wayside - hundreds, probably thousands, have been royally entertained. Something was lost, a lot more was gained.

No, EXACTLY that number voted NO when the merger question was put for a second time on 1st December 1993 and that was the biggest vote against any apsect of the merger that there ever was at any Caley meeting. Let's also remember the circumstances surrounding the number rising to as high as 226 after 50 had voted against on 9th September. Both sides of the debate within Caley recruited furiously for about two months in order to pack as many people as they could into that Rose Street meeting in a desperate bid by both sides for their will to prevail. So really, that 226 is absolutely dead strength among those who felt that way. Anyone within geographical supporting range and remotely inclined not to attend ICT matches was in there. We also know that a great number of these people, and most of them sooner rather than later, have been coming to games. I also wish posters would stop quoting attendance figures on this thread which are totally irrelevant to the subject. Yes, there may well have been "2000 plus" at Scottish Cup ties but, given a core home support of about 500, I find it difficult to believe that too many of this 2000 plus, who always emerged out of the woodwork for the glorious moments, were rabid, diehard Caley fans who felt so passionately about their club that they resolved never to darken the door of the new one. Out of a core home support of about 500, the majority of whom have for a long time come to games, you just can't get a number of refuseniks of any significant magnitude. If you want to add in a figure for Jags refuseniks, then, like everything else, you have to take a proportionally much smaller number. Then there's the suggestion that there are "at least 20" refuseniks at one work place. That reminds me of the story I saw in a paper today about a search to trace any of the 19 (nineteen) people who apparently attended a Beatles concert in Dingwall before the Fab Four became famous(no off topic jokes please!) You could more or less guarantee that 50 of these 19 will, like Celtic fans who were allegedly in Seville, make themselves known! But the absolute bottom line of this whole tale is - the number of refuseniks, however small, actually doesn't matter. Without their presence, ICT rose through the ranks to the top table of Scottish football within a decade and there it remains. Any other arrangement which suited the wishes of these refuseniks would have had no chance of having done so. So in the words of the Lord High Executioner in The Mikado - "they will none of them be missed!"

As one of the oldest posters on here I thought I'd throw my tuppence worth into the 'refusenik' debate. The many of you who don't remember 'old money' won't know what tuppence is, but no matter ... I started watching Caley in 1949, aged about 7. My first match was actually at the Clach park. Caley won 2-0 and I was hooked. I watched them all through the 50s, visiting every Highland league ground in the process, plus quite a few others in Scottish Cup away days. I was priviliged in that time to watch the best ever Caley side, 51 to 53ish, with Bobby Bolt, Ginger McKenzie, Willie Bruce, Joopy Mitchell etc etc. Happy days! I went off to college in about 1960 and never really lived in Inverness again, apart from about 18 months in 63/64. But I still followed Caley's fortunes from a distance, and had I been in Inverness at the time leading up to the merger, I would definitely voted against it. At that time I felt Caley should have 'gone it alone'. Looking back now I have to admit that, had that happened, their destiny would have been much the same as the other 3 who managed to do it alone (ie predominately lower leagues with occasional forays into the second top tier). I'm happy to say that I quickly embraced ICT and over the past 17 years they have put me through all the emotions that I ever experienced with Caley - elation when we win, despair when we lose, frustration, anticipation, excitement - the whole lot. I get up to see ICT live about half a dozen times a season, plus I see their TV games and obviously watch all the highlights. On top of that I have converted many friends down here in Englandshire to be ICT supporters too. There must be at least 20 who have adopted ICT as their Scottish team, and it is always the first thing we talk about when we meet up. So, to sum up, I feel sorry for the 'refuseniks'. It is they who, through their 'dog in the manger' attitude, have missed out on 17 wonderful years, with I hope, many more to come.

This subject seems to rear its head now and again so i'd thought it was time to set up a poll so the subject could get put to bed once and for all Its probably more appropriate to older ICT fans but younger fans can join in as they may have fathers/relations etc who were involved with Caledonian Fc or Inverness Thistle at the time of the merger Think it safe to say that we all know that there are fans of the two parent clubs who refused to watch or support ICT in any way but just how many are/were there??? From what I can make out from this forum there are very few Caledonian or Thistle fans on here and the majority seem to be younger fans who have only supported ICT in their life time I've stated before i've experienced hostility from pre-merger fans when the topic ICT is mentioned so I know it exists in our city A few questions to maybe ponder and debate 1. I'm not an expert on the merger as I wasn't in Inverness at the time it happened but would we have a higher average attendance had Caledonian FC gone alone? 2. Buses leave Inverness for Pittodrie,Ibrox and Parkhead every weekend so did numbers dramatically increase on these coaches once both pre-merger clubs ceased to exist? 3. Do any on here personally know any refuseniks and if so are they as anti ICT now or have they mellowed as time goes by? 4.Were any posters on here in the Caley Rebel group? 5.Were and posters on here involved in any of the meetings when the voting on the merger took place and if so what were your memories and recollections? 6. Were you a pro merger or anti-merger voter? No doubt I will get slated yet again for posting this thread but this is by no means a wind up or a fishing trip, its a subject i'm genuinely interested in and to be honest i find the whole subject quite fascinating dougal

Richie needs to heed this advise ................ If you're not sure what to do with the ball, just pop it in the net and we'll discuss your options afterwards." ..................... Bill Shankly

Izaguirre's getting too much space on the left and that's how they got their goal. Otherwise, we've contained them well with a defensive 4-4-1-1 formation - Ross playing in behind Rooney with Foran and Sutherland largely pinned back by their full-backs. If it stays tight going into the last 15-20 minutes then hopefully Hayes can come on and exploit the space that will inevitably open up as Celtic push for a winner.

What going on? its a big game tomorrow night and a dougal thread is creating more interest regarding something that even Dr Who cant be bothered to go back in time to find out who the disgruntled 8 were. Since that date we Have beaten Celtic twice and were 4 minutes away from making it a hat trick of wins over Celtic in the cup,which orchestrated the departure of Barnes and what a result beating Celtic with the well respected manager Martin O Neil in charge. Its not going well for Celtic, a wasted journey up north, whilst Rangers narrow the gap in the league with a game in hand, they now have to come up here with the fear of losing to a Highland team again with the pressure of expectation weighted on their shoulders and have to face up to a solid Inverness side who will play with no fear, only days prior to an Old Firm cup clash. Never mind what the teams plans are, Terry and Mo have got that well sorted. What are the warm up plans for the Highland savages that ICT fc can proudly call fans. Stand up for the Caley Jags Bring on the Celtic and make it a night to remember.

Has to be Ryan, it should always be best team out at this stage of the cup, we want to win dont we? Tuffeys good, but Ryans better.

For me we have to keep the 4-4-2 and get at Celtic as much as possible. I'd go with: Tuffey/Esson Duff - Tokely - Hogg - Munro Hayes - Cox - Duncan - Doran Rooney - Foran In terms of Celtic, they're without Wilson, Majstorovic and Brown. I expect their defence to be: Forster Juarez - Rogne - Mulgrew - Izaguirre Just a few points here. However ugly it is, the long ball may be our best form of attack tonight. Foran will win headers against Rogne and Mulgrew but It is essential that we get support to Foran from Rooney, Hayes and Doran so that we can win the second ball and develop play. I remember seeing Graham Bayne play against Rangers a few seasons back and he won every single long ball that night and I'm pretty certain Foran is capable of doing the same tonight. The two Celtic full-backs are both very attacking and will look to get forward as much as possible. This will therefore leave gaps in behind that we can exploit through Hayes and Doran on the counter-attack. However, it is very important the two wingers track back and do their job defensively. Cox and Duncan must play well tonight if we're to stand a chance. They'll probably be up against Kayal and Ledley who have become known for their passing so it imperative that they get in their faces and don't give them time to pick out passes. My main worry is our defence. The Celtic wingers are likely to be Commons on the left and either McCourt or Forrest on the other side. These are players who are capable of beating the full-back and delivering a good ball into the box. I especially worry about Munro playing out of position at left back as he's not all together fast and could easily be beaten in a one-on-one situation. This just highlights how important it is that Hayes and Doran track back and even double up on the Celtic wingers to make it much harder for them. Celtic will start with Hooper being partnered by either Samaras or Stokes. We all know Tokely and Hogg will win anything in the air but the worry is that Celtic get the ball into the strikers feet and they begin feeding it for supporting midfielders and full backs. This is by no means an easy game and on paper Celtic look to have a team capable of winning comfortably but with plenty of team work, this is a game that we can win and progress into the next round.

Esson Tokely Duff Munro Gillet Hayes Cox Duncan Doran Foran Rooney

Esson every time.

Yes, I remember the the 94/95 season very well indeed - when the average attendance was 1259 (which is a lot more than you would see on average at Kingsmills and Telford Street combined.). On ONE occasion in 94/95 there was an error where many were missed out and it was mistakenly reported at just over 400 which was a long way short of any of the other matches. As I was saying - selective use of statistics. And thanks to Born Caley for setting the record straight. The newspaper report I saw quoted the concert as having taken place "48 years ago" which made it 1963 - rather late indeed for the Beatles only to have attracted 19. But now we learn that this was a much more likely sounding 1960. I gather a local group called the Melotones attracted 1200 at the Strath the same night. I also head yesterday that, unlike the Beatles, The Melotones are still on the go!!!

http://wn.com/Guinness_'Surfer'

Did I miss the St Andrews night?

I really doubt that. All the new fans who supported the merged team would have probably supported any league team in Inverness. So I think the crowds would be similar to what they are now. I agree Joe.....FACT....in the 50s and 60s, Caley were regularily playing to crowds as big...if not bigger than what they average now, when they were in the Highland League. Dont belive me....go get yourself a copy of Rod Clynes book, In A Different League....its all in there. I see no evidence to suggest that Caley on their own would have been less of a draw than ICT....if anything...i think they could have had a bigger, more loyal fanbase! SMEE is right. According to Alex Main's "Caley All the Way, Caledonian had some quite large crowds during the 1950's and 60's: Caledonian v Clach - 1949/50 NOS Qualifying Cup- Attendance 6,000 ( T Street) Caledonian v Elgin - 1950/51 NOS Qualifying Cup - Attendance 4,000 ( T Street) Caledonian v County -1965/66- NOS Qualifying Cup - Attendance 4,000 ( T Street) Not sure what this proves other than Caledonian were able to get 1st division attendances. Following on from what the Long Man suggests here's some recordl crowds from the Scottish leagues of 50's and 60's 2nd Jan 1950 Hibs v Hearts at Easter Road - Div 1 - 65860 3rd Mar 1954 Aberdeen v Hearts at Pittodrie - Scot Cup - 45060 2nd Jan 1950 East Fife v Raith Rovers at Bayview - Div 1 - 22515 14th Mar 1959 Stirling Albion v Celtic at Annfield - Scot Cup - 26400 17th Feb 1968 Elgin City v Arbroath at Boroughbrigs - Scot Cup - 12608 These are record attendances for the home clubs but such attendances would never happen nowadays. Elgin would be lucky to break a thousand for a game against Arbroath now.The last Easter Road derby couldnt raise a third of the gate of 1950. No comparrison can be made between now and back then for many reasons. Back then football was an affordable release for a man and his boys after a hard weeks work. Indeed for many it was probably the only affordable interest they could have. Now there's too many other things to spend the money on and football has priced itself out of the market.

So have you made your mind up then Mr Mantis the more I think about both scenarios its remarkable how similar the football communities of Nottingham and Inverness are Forest like Caley being the greater team with the better players, more money, better ground and a much larger support I can't help but laugh out loud at the ex jaggies that claim that they had all the money men who were allegedly regulars at Kingsmills, from what i've been told and the few online photos of Kingsmills park i've seen, then why did their ground resemble something like a scene from Beirut at the height of the troubles Any money men would have pumped the cash into the Scottish league team regardless of who the team was I personally think the jags were on their last legs and they only had one chance of survival and that was to cling perilously on to Caley's tail because they would have been dead and buried within a season had Caley gone solo. You only have to look at the sorry state Clach find themselves in at the moment to back up my claim Had I been a Jaggie I reckon I would have fallen into the refusenik camp, there is no way I could watch a merged team who play in blue, hear only Caley chants from the fans and listen to virtually everybody in Inverness including the local and national media refer to the team as Caley Had I been Caledonian I would have voted NO to a takeover and I would have wanted Caley to go alone because other than the sale of Kingsmills Thistle were bringing absolutely nothing to the party What I find galling is that clubs who were inferior to Caledonian on and off the park got Scottish League entry(yer Ross Countys,Peterheads,Elgins,Gretnas and Annans etc) The fact that Gretna reached the SPL and County made a Cup final apperance makes a mockery of all the clowns on here that claim Caley would never have achieved what ICT have done. Lets not beat about the bush Caledonian FC would be in the exact same position that ICT find themselves in at this moment with a greater and more loyal fanbase as there would be a lot less disharmony in the City dougal

I take it you mean "support" and that's a wee typo but the answer is still "Yes" - you unfortunately were a lot smaller. That was actually one of the problems which meant that Thistle was a severely weakened entity when the merger came around - lack of money, including gate receipts. Another case in point was the September 9th 1993 votes. Caley went for the merger 55-50. At the Jags meeting it was 33-12 so less than half the attendance. On the other hand Jags were at a fundamental disadvantage since only MEN were allowed to go to their meetings! Let me give you this anecdote. I wasn't in the original Caley meeting since I only joined afterwards (OK, it was in order to get into meetings for reporting purposes!). But I did doorstep their original one in the Muirtrown. As the season ticketholders came down the stairs afterwards, somebody called out "Jags have gone for it by three to one!" The response from one wag was instant. "Christ! There weren't as many as four at the Jags meeting were there?" :biggrin: All this proves to me anyway that you ain't the dye in the wool Caley man you make yourself out to be dougal Don't say that, there are certain people who will now start trying to get that vote overturned! As far as I am aware, Caledonian FC never changed its constitution on the basis of the merger and is still, for instance, constitutionally bound to have a registered office in Telford Street!!! :biggrin: (Unless in the very dying days when all 576 Season Tickets had expired and only the Life Members were left, they quietly sorted things.) OCG.... get a hold of my book. All is explained there! All is explained by a very Pro-merger author with very pro-merger views which no doubt suited the club at the time of publication While i'm not slating the content of "Against all odds" I prefer to hear views from both merger camps not just the one, that way I can make my own mind up dougal

What will be more interesting than the poll results will be to see how many thought it would be worth voting. I am personally surprised that as many as 4 have done so. I'm with the "yawn" and "don't really care" faction.

This is the main problem, we're not allowed to stand. Does it not go back to the Taylor report and Hillsborough? I think it's like our laws on Marley's special herb where, depending on the officer who catches you (and what music their into), you will get treated differently, even though it's against the rules all the same. My mate told me this, I wouldn't know for sure though..... As I've pointed out numerous times, "you must sit" is an SPL directive, not law. You just have to go to Murrayfield for a Rugby Match or to a stadium concert to see thousands of people standing without issue and you don't see people there being harassed and huckled out of the ground by the stewards. The law states that any stadium with a capacity greater than 10,000 should be all seated and that anyone admitted to the stadium must receive a ticket for an allocated seat, it says nothing about you having to remain seated. The Taylor Report recommended all seater stadiums as a means of controlling numbers in stadiums and preventing crowd rushes/surges. It was not designed to stop people from enjoying the game. The problem is, getting into a tussle with the Stewards is not going to change anything. It's the SPL that need to alter or scrap their "You must sit" policies. Clubs are quick to hide behind the "SPL Rules, Sorry" line, but ultimately they are the ones with the power to change/scrap the SPL rules...not the stewards or police. It is the clubs that we should be putting pressure on to have things changed, not just at their own grounds but across the entire league. Boycotting games is pointless unless you first make a proper case for what you want and why you are doing it, and even then, you have to make sure you are boycotting clubs who are not in support of your proposals. It could easily be that whilst we may not have the same level of issue with our own stewards, the club itself supports the SPL rules on sitting down...whilst St Mirren could be against the SPL rules on sitting but have a match commander who applies them to the letter. I think people have a fair point about how they are treated etc, but I also find it a bit cringworthy when I see/hear how they handle themselves when they get in to a situation. Teenagers who are pissed up to the eyeballs getting into the face of Stewards and, on occasion, deliberately setting out to wind them up doesn't do anyone any favours and gives them an easy excuse to dismiss any complaint. What's more, when it's the same people who seem to be in the thick of it time and again then, rightly or wrongly, you get yourself the label of being a troublemaker and again, give them an easy excuse to dismiss any complaint. Not saying fans have to accept the situation, but they do need to be a bit smarter in how they handle things.

None of the above. I really didn't expect this to be taken seriously.