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It's football FFS! Sometimes the underdog wins a game, especially in the cup. We should know that better than anyone. All credit to Ayr. Now can we just get on with the rest of the season please?...

Ywingie, I think that Celtic, Rangers, Dundee United and hearts would disagree with you. The early start was designed to help them, and them only and they seem to have royally fecked it up. It's amazing how many people think that Grantie and Russell Duncan would have made all the difference to the start we've had. mince - with this run of injuries they would not have made a jot of difference. The only one that we really miss is Adam Rooney, but could we afford to pay him his reputed £10K a week? Think not. As for injuries, how can you blame the training. It's a contact sport and generally, if you get hurt it's bad luck or malice. You might occasionally get someone prone (Proctor/ hamstring comes to mind) but the rest? pure ill fortune. It'll get better.

This must be the worst feckin thread in 17 feckin years.

Wins against Kilmarnock(H), Heats (H) and Dundee Utd (A) and we are back in the hunt.... ....and after that it's only Celtic (A) followed by St.Mirren (H), St.Johnstone (A) and Dunfermline (H) before it's time to face Motherwell again this time though at TCS.... Can't see what all the fuss is about....

So why did we finish 7th then? I am with you on most of what you say, but this whole "We had a team capable of top 6" thing is a load of pish. We've been close to top 6 on a couple of occasions and done the "just a few changes" thing and it's made no difference. Butcher felt it needed more radical action, and all respect to him for having the gonads to take the chance in doing what he did. Munro and Duncan were club heroes, I get that, but they weren't single handedly bringing success to the club. People need to get over it and move on. As I've said before, I'm not expecting top 6 this season. You have to be VERY fortunate to make such a big change and see immediate success from it. For me, this season is building season and as frustrating as that might be for the fans, we have to look at what the change in style and attitude might bring long term. I remember being at a seminar about change...or more specifically, knowing when not to change. If you really believe everything you're doing is right and the results are bad then is it really you, or is it external forces? If it's external forces, can you change to counter them and if/when they change again can you quickly adapt back or is it better to ride the storm and see your plan through. It's easy to witness failure and believe change is the answer....but it's not always. Granted, I would have hoped for a bit more than what we're witnessing at present, but when you look beyond the results at the games then there's really not a lot that needs to change for these results to be going the other way. A wee rub of the green and some of the shots that hit the woodwork find the back of the net, a few players back from injury and the chance to play a formation that is selected and not forced upon us and everything changes. IMO this is the first time in a long time a manager at ICT has the "luxury" of succeeding or failing by his own hand. He's got his team out there playing things his way and only time will tell whether he got it right or wrong. Being just a handful of games into the season is not the time to be judging, it's the time to be getting right behind the manager and team to give them every opportunity of making the plan succeed. I've lost count of the number of times over they years that ICT have won games and the opposition fans were saying "we should never have lost to them". The show is on the other week. It's not nice, but sometimes chit happens and you just have to get up, brush yourself down and get on with it.

After the first 20 minutes of last night's game, I decided to abandon my PC and take up an offer to go and see the ex-Marillion singer in concert. And boy am I glad I chose Fish over Pish.

First of all i don't think anyone on this thread is calling for Butchers head. I don't understand why everyone is moaning that we want him out when no one is saying that. I also dont think we are a wee team in terms of Scottish football. Last night we played Ayr United who are significantly smaller than us at the present time and yet we weren't even able to score ONE against them. They completely out classed us in the first half and we deserved to go out. Everyone who has came on here to discuss last nights fiasco is well in their rights to be frustrated with that performance last night. It was embarrasing to watch. I only ask how long do we keep up with these stupid excuses of "the team needs more time to gel" If it takes this long to gel a team then is it really worth it? I don't think so. We had a team capable of top 6 last season so why not keep the bulk of that squad and improve it with 2 or 3 new faces, There were players that got released that are better than the current crop of players that has been brought in and Terry Butcher is the only person responsible for that. I am behind Terry Butcher at the moment but at what point in the season does it become acceptable to start criticising Terry Butcher if we aren't allowed to do so right now? It seems like he is untouchable and will be here regardless of how poor we do this season. Do we wait until we have played everyone once and possibly bottom after 11 games? 22? 33? 38? Or maybe next season in the first. We came up first time of asking last time, i'm not too sure we'd be able to do it again.

Worst result in 17 years? Naw, i agree that title can go to the 5-1 defeat to County. But i think this has to be the worst start to a season ive ever seen, everything that could go wrong pretty much has. Players are picking up injuries everywhere, we cant score, we cant defend, we get no breaks on refereeing decisions and 6 games into the season and we are still without a win and proping up the table. Will things get better? I think they will but i lost a bit of faith after last nigth and Saturday but i will not give up on my team.

That could well be Tel boys dilemna - but the way I look at it we play 5 in midfield with Foran playing on the left side of a midfield three where he was most effective and playing Hayes and Doran consistently wide (and their replacements) - then again the problem with playing this system is that we have to look to playing the ball on the deck but that would lessen the responsibility for Shane - who still could be a fairly effective hold up player but he is also a penalty box player and more service from the wings may pay dividend plus the forward runs of Tansey and Foran - with Morrison in the defensive holding role. Shane is raw and makes mistakes but he has far,far more potential than Tade in the centre forward role and Foran is quite simply a loss in the middle where he can influence the game and be more effective as a captain. Tade can then be used as super sub but he needs 20-30 minutes not a last gasp addition. And the only way that Shane can progress is being played and given a run in the team.

It certainly is a time to be depressed about our game in European terms looking at results for the past few years like Starchief has said rather than one game, with the exception of maybe Braga as they are not a bad side, did they not beat Arsenal at home and do not bad last season in Europe. It is a different style of play compared to the SPL and unfortunately the managers were tactically naive, Rangers had the game in the palm of their hand and should/could have been 2 or 3 up at half time, McCoist took of Naismith at start of second half put Lafferty on and went to a straight 4 in midfield, game lost Maribor took control and they were caught out. Lennon is still learning his trade and without seeing or hearing the game I can't comment but I really don't think Sion are any better than Dundee Utd and Celtic turned them over 5-1!! Hearts were just very naive and let Spurs play far too much, nothing can be drawn from that game as this is a team who were in the Champs League last year, turned over Inter Milan amongst others and got to the quarter finals. I think had Walter Smith and Jim Jefferies been in charge of respective teams the results would have been very different, as for Celtic a man like O'Niell would have sent a team out and beat someone like Sion 4-0 easily. For the fans of those teams they have to realise their managers are learning at that level and while it is not good to watch and take it's the level they are at. Our game is certainly in decline in European circles and there doesn't seem to be a way out, we may now be restricted to the odd season where one team from Scotland actually does something but even then this will become very few and far between. We have been saying for decades we are getting worse and are in decline but nothing seems to be happening, our game needs a complete overhall from top to bottom.

Of course he shouldn't be sacked but at what point do we stop with all these excuses? 10 spl games without a win? It's possible. It's frustrating because I like the team we have they just aren't producing the goods.

I decided last night not to log in as I feared being banned due to the rage I was in I'm still seething but feel I can now get my point over without using to many expletives Was last nights result the worst result in the clubs history it must be up there in the top two or three if not? Let's not kid ourselves we were beaten by one of the poorer first division 1 sides who are all part timers if I'm not mistaken, guys who probably are posties, plumbers, bakers , traffic wardens,kfc employees and so on Whether Butcher has lost the dressing room I certainly am not going to speculate but there is something seriously wrong with either team morale or the tactics being deployed The league table doesn't lie and only highlights the crisis we now find ourselves in Worst result in 17 years ? Yes I sadly think it probably is dougal

This highlights the need for a 10 team SPL, without it Scotland out of Europe by August will be the norm instead of the exception.