Ok TB and MM have thier contract extension in place. A lot of the current team, many on loan do not. Has TB taken the team as far as he can, or has the recent changes been part of a longer term plan. We have to bare in mind the budget he is working to, but then again so are other teams. What does TB have to do next season ( assuming we stay up) to be at least best of the rest like last season and not sliding backwards.

For me the Sir Alex and Beckham issue showed to me that Sir Alex wasnt going to take any prima donna bullplop and told Becks that it was my way or the highway. IMO that shows that SAF wasnt adaptable at all, he wasnt willing to change his morals or rules in the dressing room for anyone.

Adaptability in reacting to teams and their tactics is a completely different thing to changing your team rules to suit one player, that for me isnt adaptability but more bowing to player pressure. If you were to say that SAF is great at adapting his team tactics to suit game situations then i would completely agree, he does not and will not ever adapt his team ethics for a player getting ideas above his station.

IMO Terry should stay but needs to work on his use of subs and changing tactics in game to suit the opposition. If the long ball tactic aint working then dont use it! He should get another season and if we are still misfiring then new management may be required then.

Is there anybody better qualified out there within the clubs budget?

I think the club should stick with him....Just!

I haven't read any of the post other than the title as I didn't want to be swayed by anyone elses response before posting but in a word yes I do believe he is the man for the job however like most managers he isn't the complete package and has his faults like everyone else does.

On the whole I can see what he is setting out to achieve by trying to build his own team and try and put across his own style of play and in some respects in terms of play you can see that as we have drastically cut out the long hoof up field but it still shows through sometimes, the problem though in my eyes is he changed the squad far too drastically at the end of last season whether that be through his own doing or not. I tend to think he was given a budget and told he had free reign to do what he wanted but to stick to the budget and thought he could bring in better players than he did and out of necessity ended up bringing in loanees to bolster the squad. This coupled with the lack of quality that he brought in has caused the style of play he is trying to enforce to suffer as the players aren't capable of what he is asking but to that his failing is he isn't able to adapt it to suit what he has available. That along with wanting to lower the average age of the squad meant we suffered with too little experience - just my opinion and observation.

Saying that you can't take away from the fact that after going down on the last day he brought us straight back up, yes we didn't start well that season but he turned it round and we all remember the run we went on and I along with many stood on the pitch in Ayr and lauded him as he addressed everyone. We all praised him with last seasons efforts but yet so many want to get on his back for this season which is notoriously harder than the first season after coming up. In some ways maybe he's suffered by having a bit more to work with, we come up from the First Division and are still on a tight budget so he has to work with what he's got, second season in Premier and we have more of a budget and he changes it, not sure it's that simple but along those lines.

What's for sure is that in order for him to win over those that are usure about him just now is he needs to adapt and certainly needs to sort out the use of subs and also the ability to change a formation or style of play to influence a game and definately earlier than he does at the moment. I also think he needs to melow out a wee bit and change the way he comes across towards players, it may have worked over the past two seasons but the team was older and could probably deal with it better, this squad is young and maybe need more of a gentler approach towards them as there is no doubt he leads with an iron fist.

I have no doubt that without TB in charge from when he was we would still have went down but stayed down and languished in the First Division like Dundee have, we have many things to thank TB for but for me next season is the make or break, it'll determine whether or not what he's been trying has paid off or not. I am one of those that hopes that's true and still stand by him.

The other question I ask is, who really could we attract that would do a better job and give us the style of play that as fans we all crave for? The only one I came up with is now in a job and very much vastly under-rated in my mind - John Collins

Terrt B came in like a bull in a china shop, trying to make wholesale changes all round hoping that a miracle woudl happen I suppose. Instead getting rid of the backbone of the team has had the opposite effect and a "could have been forseen " result.

Sorry but he should have made his changes gradually, replacing each player with a proven and experienced one and gradually moving the team forward inch by inch without giving away the farm or undermining either the harmony or the stability and placement (in the league standings) of the club.

But he is here now for another year so let's see what happens.

For me Butcher is NOT the man for the job. His team his responsibility for our poor season. People often comment who could we get the was any better, I would say who could do any worse. Not investing in another season ticket to watch another season of dross.

I'm going to change my answer from before on this thread. He is NOT, I repeat NOT the man for the job. If he's in charge for next season, ICT WILL be relegated. And it won't be a "down on the last day" affair, it will be more in the vein of Gretna, Dunfermline, Livingston or Hamilton Accies.

We could still get relegated this season but I somehow can't see Dunfermline winning all their remaining games. I think Butcher did a great job a couple of seasons ago when we went on that run to win the SFL and then we had a pretty decent season last year on our return to the SPL equaling our best ever finish. That is a decent track record.

This season has been very disappointing. There have been flashes of real potential and hope but these have quickly fizzled out and he does not seem to have any realistic plan to address the problems. We had real hope of a top 6 finish not so long ago and are probably safe now only because other teams have also been poor. Much of the blame for this poor performance must rest with Butcher.

I can accept one poor season on the back of 2 good ones but next season must be better. The Board also has a responsibility here. I don't advocate interference by the Board but it is reasonable to expect them to see there are a few things that need addressing and to expect Butcher to explain to their satisfaction what he proposes to do about them. If we are clear at the bottom come mid November (and current form suggests that is very likely) then he should go. I appreciate that it will cost us to cut his contract short but a drop to the SFL will cost even more.

We have made no progress this season what so ever, players we have lost have not been replaced with players of the same standard, can't see any light at the end of the tunnel for next season I'm afraid.

Obviously not!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm often worried about some peoples sanity on here. What we have seen over the past season is worse than woeful, yet some always try and use tired excuses ie. injuries, team gelling in time etc. etc.

There is no excuse for it at all and it is down to Butcher. Why support him? Is it because he is charismatic? Even if he is that doesn't transfer onto the pitch and time after time after time we all come on here and say how bad it is, yet still try and justify things! What will another season do?

The players HE has brought in have been awful at the best of times (with a few exceptions but any manager can uncover a diamond from time to time) and another summer and season will just prove he has had more time to screw up the ethos of the team.

I hate seeing my team lose week in week out without any whimper of a fight and obviously everyone else does as well. Why always say 'we're a small team'? There's smaller teams out there proving the tag wrong and punching above their weight...and we were once one of them!

Butcher should not be given more time, he has had enough and proved that all he has is a good quip or two. His excuses today were poor to say the least about the performance and said that the crowd were right to boo at the end. Glad to know he pays attention to not just himself.

Who would you like to see as Boss ICTodd?

We could still get relegated this season but I somehow can't see Dunfermline winning all their remaining games. I think Butcher did a great job a couple of seasons ago when we went on that run to win the SFL and then we had a pretty decent season last year on our return to the SPL equaling our best ever finish. That is a decent track record.

This season has been very disappointing. There have been flashes of real potential and hope but these have quickly fizzled out and he does not seem to have any realistic plan to address the problems. We had real hope of a top 6 finish not so long ago and are probably safe now only because other teams have also been poor. Much of the blame for this poor performance must rest with Butcher.

I can accept one poor season on the back of 2 good ones but next season must be better. The Board also has a responsibility here. I don't advocate interference by the Board but it is reasonable to expect them to see there are a few things that need addressing and to expect Butcher to explain to their satisfaction what he proposes to do about them. If we are clear at the bottom come mid November (and current form suggests that is very likely) then he should go. I appreciate that it will cost us to cut his contract short but a drop to the SFL will cost even more.

I must admit i have felt the same about the relegation factor however I am now beginning to get concerned abot the next four games

Dunfermline are fighting for their chances. On todays performance we are obviously not fighting to the same extent. The others in the bottom six must be sensing our blood and fear and will want to cash in on us. So who are we going to take the last few important points from ? or do we just have to hope Dunfermline will panic and fall at the last hurdle?

Yes my positivity is waning slightly but my hopes are still high!

Maybe we should put Golobart and Gillet as our strike force next game.

We could still get relegated this season but I somehow can't see Dunfermline winning all their remaining games. I think Butcher did a great job a couple of seasons ago when we went on that run to win the SFL and then we had a pretty decent season last year on our return to the SPL equaling our best ever finish. That is a decent track record.

This season has been very disappointing. There have been flashes of real potential and hope but these have quickly fizzled out and he does not seem to have any realistic plan to address the problems. We had real hope of a top 6 finish not so long ago and are probably safe now only because other teams have also been poor. Much of the blame for this poor performance must rest with Butcher.

I can accept one poor season on the back of 2 good ones but next season must be better. The Board also has a responsibility here. I don't advocate interference by the Board but it is reasonable to expect them to see there are a few things that need addressing and to expect Butcher to explain to their satisfaction what he proposes to do about them. If we are clear at the bottom come mid November (and current form suggests that is very likely) then he should go. I appreciate that it will cost us to cut his contract short but a drop to the SFL will cost even more.

I must admit i have felt the same about the relegation factor however I am now beginning to get concerned abot the next four games

Dunfermline are fighting for their chances. On todays performance we are obviously not fighting to the same extent. The others in the bottom six must be sensing our blood and fear and will want to cash in on us. So who are we going to take the last few important points from ? or do we just have to hope Dunfermline will panic and fall at the last hurdle?

Yes my positivity is waning slightly but my hopes are still high!

Maybe we should put Golobart and Gillet as our strike force next game.

I feel exactly the same. I am concerned the way we are playing both in defence and attack. Can he not see as most supporters do, that we require a good central defender and goalscorer.

Relegation is still a possibility this season, and a definite next season with the the same pool of players.

Can somebody work out £ (guesstimated playing squad budget) per point gained ? (I suspect TB is pretty good value in comparison).

all that butcher can account for is the tactics on a match day. not giving away soft penalties, not missing easy chances and not players getting sent off.

has been one of the most inconsistent seasons weve ever had. and personally id put that down to injuries. butcher hasnt been able to pick the same team over and over like last season or the season before which ultimatly led to a great promotion push and our joint highest league finish.

so i dont see how bringing in a new manager or management team would help matters i agree with pele if thing are worse next season then it should be cosidered but for me that would depend on injury situation and what butcher does with his resources then.

remember last time butcher was under pressure and we stuck with him. when we were in mid table obscurity in the 1st division. he got us promoted. ive alway taken pride in the fact that we done that and im also proud that butcher is the longest serving manager in the spl.

stick with him through the hard times and the good times will come

Here's my view on it again realy can't be bothered putting any effort into posting on this thread again it's so tedious hearing the same old sh*t from the same old people

all that butcher can account for is the tactics on a match day. not giving away soft penalties, not missing easy chances and not players getting sent off.

has been one of the most inconsistent seasons weve ever had. and personally id put that down to injuries. butcher hasnt been able to pick the same team over and over like last season or the season before which ultimatly led to a great promotion push and our joint highest league finish.

so i dont see how bringing in a new manager or management team would help matters i agree with pele if thing are worse next season then it should be cosidered but for me that would depend on injury situation and what butcher does with his resources then.

remember last time butcher was under pressure and we stuck with him. when we were in mid table obscurity in the 1st division. he got us promoted. ive alway taken pride in the fact that we done that and im also proud that butcher is the longest serving manager in the spl.

stick with him through the hard times and the good times will come

Here's my view on it again realy can't be bothered putting any effort into posting on this thread again it's so tedious hearing the same old sh*t from the same old people

Much of what you say is true enough re: refs, injuries etc however that isn't really the whole picture, some of the damage was done before the season even began! Butcher took us from playing poorly/relegation and turned the team around and helped us to promotion and then to a good 7th place finish. But now he seems have gone backward and even taking into account our unusually large injury list we have still been very poor. He is somewhat responsible for players missing easy chances, poor defending within the team as the players that are failing are the players that he has brought in and deemed them good enough for the team. The players have to take some resposibility too of course as they have been poor also, some of the players today (and in other games recently) looked like they couldn't make a 10 yard pass accurately! I was also sad to see that the starting line up did not include one Scot, too many journeymen brought in going through the motions perhaps who don't play for the badge?

I think people are angry not only with results but possibly more so with the manner of our defeats, which has happened quite often this season. In a good number of games we have created heaps of chances without scoring any, then the other team goes up and scores with their one shot on target. That sort of failures are not about injuries that's a lack of concentration, organisation, ability and desire (and utterly stupid individual errors) IMO for which both players and manager must take responsibility. I personally don't really want butcher out (at least not yet) but that's probably more to do with the fact that I can't think of anyone better offhand TBH.

You may be tired of hearing the same old sh*t, but by the sounds of it (and the look of the stands before the end today) a great deal of people, not just a few are tired of paying their hard earned to watch the same old sh*t.

Hope this makes sense I've had a few drams lol!

Can somebody work out £ (guesstimated playing squad budget) per point gained ? (I suspect TB is pretty good value in comparison).

I would suggest that he and Malpas are our least successful management team using this method of calculation. Even allowing for the Nicalue debacle. Suggest also that this calculation becomes even more skewed when you and in their salaries to the equation.

The club (on many fronts) is going through a transitional period.

Our reliance on the old guard was always going to have to change at some point, and whilst I can accept there's an argument that Butcher hastened that a bit by releasing certain players, it was going to come last year or this year regardless of who was the manager.

In truth, we should have been preparing/positioning replacements for these guys long ago, so the sudden transition cannot be placed entirely at Butchers feet.

A fair bit of financial damage was done when the club decided to throw money at a failing Brewster. We signed players to bolster the squad to save a season that was already bust. God only knows what Barrowman cost us in terms of the bottom line and whilst the Niculae deal made a profit on paper it could have been so much more and the damage done to the clubs reputation is, IMO, still hurting us now.

One thing ICT have been very good at over the years is alienating guys who could have (financially) been very good for the club. Could you imagine what it would be like if all these people had decided to set personal differences/egos (whatever you want to call it) aside and worked together for the good of the club? Sutherland, Fraser, MCGillvray, Savage, Catto...those are some pretty big hitters. Instead we've had to rely on selling off all the family silver year after year, just to get the books to balance.

We are where we are now and hindsight is wonderful thing when seeking to criticise. Was it avoidable, could it have been any different? Open for debate, but it's an argument nobody can win. I do know that we don't have the resources...financially, or otherwise...to support a squad which matches the expectations of some fans. We'd be lucky if we could afford to put a squad together without a good spattering of loan deals....some of which cost us nothing.

So, my argument is that the damage has not been done in the last season, the last 2 seasons over even the last 3 seasons. Our position has been worsening pretty much from day 1. Progress on the park was not the result of some genius master plan, it was a series of short term measures and fixes which have finally caught up with us and there's a price to be paid.

Is Butcher the man for the job? Unless we know of anyone else with the contacts to bring players in so cheaply or loaned in for free and who can keep us safe and/or deliver more....then yeah, he is.

Would he be the man for the job if things were different, if we had a bit of cash in the bank to spend on signing players on 2 or 3 year deals? Who knows!!! That would be pure speculation....and since things aren't different and aren't going to change any time soon then it seems a little pointless dreaming of what ifs.

I don't like the situation any more than the next fan...but a new manager (regardless of who it was) is not going to magic up a larger budget, better players, fewer injuries or any of those other things which all seem to have become Butchers fault in some eyes. He may not be getting everything right, but who does!!! I don't believe Butcher is the only person that could be doing the job, but I do wonder how anyone, with the resources available and the luck we've (not) had could be doing much better. In fact, we could be far worse off than we are now and I wonder if some people should be more concious of the saying "Careful what you wish for!!!".

CD

Wee bit rich still trying to apportion any or the responsibility for the current situation on Brewster? Can you elaborate on the money that was 'thrown' at him in an attempt to bolster? As I recollect it was insignificant compared to the money thrown at TB.

I'm not apportioning blame for this season on Brewster...just highlighting that he was twice involved in extra cash being spent which served us no good whatsoever. First the signing of Barrowman for way over the odds and on ludicrous wages, the second being money given to him to strengthen the squad, which didn't do anything to turn around our fortunes, and then the late decision to get rid and the subsequent relegation have all contributed to what was effectively "wasting money" and damaging the clubs finances. Ultimate responsibility for those decisions lies with the Board at the time and there's no doubt that, in combination with several other things, they have culminated in the current situation where we have little money and need to rely on loan signings and getting players for free/on the cheap.

No idea where anyone would get the impression that Butcher has had money thrown at him. The only additional spending we've seen has been the result of taking players in on loan/short deals to cover injury, and even in some of those cases it has cost us nothing because Butcher has the contacts to make these things possible.

We have little money as punters are no longer attending. Second biggest decline in attendances behind Hibs according to the Sunday Mail. Why are people no longer attending?

Suggest also that players like Foran and OTJ are earning more money than and other player outside Marius ever has at ICT. Also suggest that our playing budget is higher than at any time previously and know that our manager and assistant manager earn more that any of their predecessors. If you also look at he amount of money spent on people who have contributed little or nothing in Butcher's reign it is frightening!

That's what I mean about money being thrown at and by Butcher.

PS. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of money being spent on a reserve keeper when other cheaper local options were available.

Why are people no longer attending?

Three things...........

First of all Cost, then value for moeny is poor and finally, entertainment value is pretty much zero. I honestly think thts your answer

Last season we finished 7th ( best of the rest) with a decent points tally. This season we are still mathematically in the relegation zone and gifting own goals embarrassingly too often. I would say that is a step backwards. TB and MM are contracted for next season, let's hope they have some plan as to how we can get back to winning ways.

We have little money as punters are no longer attending. Second biggest decline in attendances behind Hibs according to the Sunday Mail. Why are people no longer attending?

Suggest also that players like Foran and OTJ are earning more money than and other player outside Marius ever has at ICT. Also suggest that our playing budget is higher than at any time previously and know that our manager and assistant manager earn more that any of their predecessors. If you also look at he amount of money spent on people who have contributed little or nothing in Butcher's reign it is frightening!

That's what I mean about money being thrown at and by Butcher.

PS. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of money being spent on a reserve keeper when other cheaper local options were available.

For years going to the football has been my main priority on the weekends but I chose to go do something else yesterday and despite ending up cold, wet, dirty and sore it was more fun than all matches I've attended this season put together....so we're in no disagreement whatsoever about how bad the season has been.

It would be totally naive of the club (or anyone) to ignore the fact that people are turning their back on the game (and it's not just ICT). Whether they agree with people's reasoning or not...whether you and I or anyone else can agree on the reasons why it's bad and what needs to be done to fix it...none of that matters a jot.

What matters is that moves be made to prevent the same mistakes being made again, and what's even more important is that the club better manage the expectations...both internally and with the fans. Had we started off this season with people being told we were going through a transition, that things would be tough and survival was the aim then I doubt we'd have so many hacked off fans as we do right now. Instead we spent the whole season hearing nothing but talk about getting top 6 and nothing being done on the park to back it up. Endless broken promises will piss people off far more than inadequate performances will....and that's what happened this season.

In regards all the other stuff I've said above....I stand by it. It's everything that has come before that has placed us in the position we are in. What's gone on this season is, IMO, just poor management of an inevitable situation. Having managed it differently would not have improved our position in the league, but we would all have been better placed to deal with it.

It actually is a sad state of affairs when many of us are staying away. In many ways I feel embarrassed by the fact that I decided a few weeks ago that this season was over for me - and I cant totally believe that. I took ma missus and ma wee one to Livingston shopping this weekene when I would usually be motoring up and down the A9. I am going to miss my first Killie away game in years cos I am going to a retirement party in Preston. Then I am going to World Rugby Sevens on May 5th instead of another of my faves - Midden. And I am missing the last game of the season for the first time in years and coming up to Sneck later in the month.

And it aint totally down to the spondoolachs. I am afraid that the standard of the SPL in general has dipped markedly. Appart from drubbing Killie and pinching a point at Muvversmell I feel that ICT have been simply awful this season. I have said all I have to say about TB - and many who chastised me are now singing from the same song book - but this has been an equally awful season for bad luck, we are playing what I would call some "mercenaries" and some "favoured". But our tactics, selections and formations have been rank rotten.

I was half hoping for TB to mellow and take some of the criticism but unless he walks - which for a narcissist is highly unlikely - we are stuck with him for next season. I really hope that we prioritise pre-season for training etc., we get rid of some of the flotsam, we utilise the players like Doran and Shinnie - who will almost be like new signings - and if we need to go to loans they are considered and not reactive.

I have to totally disagree with CD's statement as the writing was on the wall from pre season and the opening game at Muversmell.

See you all next season comrades - or should I say pre season !!