I was originally going to post the following statement in the "Interesting" thread but decided it needed a place of its own on the main board as I think it is quite important.

Its threads like the "Interesting" thread (and a few other current ones) that sometimes make me wonder why Donald and myself bother putting in the time, effort and money we do to run this site.

The original poster, whether by design or accident invites a barrage of negativity by saying everyone is quiet after a win, and true to form the poster is proved 100% correct, a trait that is repeated in thread after thread after thread. And when we cant abuse <insert name of player or club official here> we get down to abusing our fellow supporters, site posters, or a particular favourite of many .... the mods and admin who volunteer their time to try and make sure it is a pleasurable place for fans of ICT to congregate and discuss things.

I have had some low points on the site a few times over the 15 years since I started it, but right now, I think it has reached bottom and I can honestly say that personally, I now take ZERO pleasure in reading this board and dealing with all the petty squabbles and back-biting that goes on. It is no longer a fun venture to run, it is a chore. For most of this season, once I have updated various report/stats/league-table pages on a Saturday, I tend to bugger off for the rest of the weekend secure in the knowledge that by Monday there will be some form of manufactured ****storm going on. For the most part, that Monday morning firefight has been something that has been way too easy to predict!!!

This situation, where some so-called fans of the club are showing utter contempt not only for the club and the team, but also for their fellow fans, and (in some cases) those who provide (or help to run) this free service where they can vent their spleen, is not a situation that can continue. That is not what this site is about. This is not why I started it, and it is not something I am willing to be a part of if it continues down this negative, petty and abusive road.

I am not saying we all have to be happy clappers, blissfully toe the party line and swallow all the BS that we get fed from time to time. I am not saying we cannot disagree with each other or the club in posts. I am not saying we cant highlight things that are wrong or be negative when there are negative things going on. thats what a forum is all about ... its a place to discuss things like adults, to put your point across or raise awareness of your concerns and to show the club that you will be heard when they do things you dont like or when results dont go our way. However, being constantly petty, abusive and negative dilutes any impact, influence, or relevance that this forum may once have had, or may have again in the future. Right now it is (quite correctly) seen as a joke or an irritation to many !

If you look back on both mine and Donald's posts of the last couple of years you will see that we have both praised the club when we thought they got it right but also been highly critical when we thought they got it wrong. I have agreed with many of you, I have disagreed with many of you and I have resembled both remarks with many of you too. However, in most cases, I have done so in the context of a discussion rather than being abusive. As far as I am concerned, that is the way it should be. Everyone should have the right to express their opinion, and everyone should be allowed to do so without being abused just because someone else disagrees. Contrary to popular belief, the moderation team will not delete a post just because it doesnt match our own opinion. One of the major reasons for that is that we don't all have the same opinions !! We quite deliberately chose a moderation team with diverse opinions and we think that has been shown to be the case over the last few seasons. Regardless of any issues we have with the running of the club, we are also usually first in the queue to offer our help where and when we can, or to browbeat first Mike and now Darren about things we can try and do, advertise, or get the club to do to benefit the fans as well as themselves ... thats part of being a fan and that desire has not diminished in me despite the miles (or my TFC season ticket).

However, if there is one thing that annoys me more than anything else on this board, and it is something that has been on the increase over the last 12 months, it is the type of reply that frequently comes after a post where someone expressed an opinion in polite and normal language, a response that calls them names that need to be asterisked or calls them stupid or basically denegrates or abuses them in some fashion. That is not acceptable. Depending on the veracity of the abuse it is somewhere between disrespectful and bullying and the bottom line is that if that is how you think you can behave, or want to behave, then quite simply we do not want you on this site, not now, not in the future, not ever. We are not telling you how to behave, that is entirely up to you, we are simply telling you what is and is not acceptable on this forum and reminding you that the consequences of inappropriate behaviour are wholly your fault.

Ok, now that I have got my feelings on the current situation out in the open for all to see, it is time to talk about a solution. I will be honest and say I do not know what it is in its entirety, I wish I did.

I know we could go to one extreme or the other with moderation and either over or under moderate ... in fact we continue to get both accusations thrown in our face on a regular basis right now. However, I know from experience that neither of these approaches will work so I have binned both of those ideas.

For that reason, I am therefore putting the onus on the site users themselves. Myself and Donald might pay the bills, and the moderators might volunteer to help run the site, but everyone on the site has a stake in its continued existence. My number one requirement is that the unsolicited and unwarranted abuse has to stop and we get back to being a discussion forum rather than a board where people feel they cant express an opinion without being bullied or abused for stating it. As I said above, it is fine to disagree or post an alternative viewpoint, but that should be done with at least a degree of civility. If we cant do that, then quite simply this forum may cease to exist in its current form, its as simple as that.

I have discussed my current feelings with the moderators and with Donald and we have had - and continue to have - a full and frank discussion on the matter. The bottom line is that we are prepared to look at how this forum is run and to make changes to our rules to accomodate any realistic and sensible suggestions from the userbase (for example: tightening up abuse penalties and perhaps relaxing other rules). We will also try once again to make the moderation and rule system more transparent and consistent so that it is clear to all what is and is not acceptable. However, it cannot and will not be a one-way street. Site users - assuming they want to remain members of this site - will have to play by whatever "golden rules" are finalised or they will face exclusion from the site regardless of who they are or how long they have been a member.

As I said above, I am willing to listen to sensible and realistic suggestions but I just want to make it clear that this thread is not going to be allowed to turn into a bitch-fest about how you got a warning for this or that or how you dont agree with certain things. If you got a warning and want to ask about it or have a problem with something then we have a process for dealing with complaints and you should send a message through the contact form in the site menu. Those kinds of posts will be deleted from this thread.

I want this thread to be for constructive comments and realistic suggestions. If there is some criticism mixed in and it is in the context of a reply with something constructive then that is fine. However, please be pre-warned that this posting is deadly serious and as melodramatic as it may sound, the future direction and existence of the site is on the table so if I feel that any poster is trying to "take the piss" on a subject that I feel is extrmely important I will have no hesitation in excluding them from the thread.

so now that I have said my piece and given out the guidelines for this thread, let the fun begin !!!

There seem to be a lot of talk of censorship and bans.

I would say that there is a huge range of posters on this site from intellects, young to old, to dafties of the same age range too, so it must be tiresome for intelligent people to have to filter through a lot of drivel to read what interests them but does that give them the right to look down on someones opinion with a lower IQ, just because they have a plethora of knowledge.

This is a hub for ICT fans and if I was to vote to limit/censor the young or dafties then I would be censoring myself on the latter.

I would like to chuck a few negative minded critical loud mouth individuals out of the home stand but unfortunately I dont have any greater right to be there than them.

So is it a case of emphasising 'Not to cause offence to fellow users of this site and to be more aware of the forum rules'.

I would like to see this site closed. Now before you start rolling up the sleeves, how about closing this site a week after the end of the season for a few weeks, It would give the people who run this site a timely break, not much will happen over this period anyway and it will remind people not to take this site for granted and to appreciate it a little more.

Could we have a new rule that Scotty and CaleyD are banned from posting consecutively as it takes too feckin long to read through their monologues back to back :004:

There seem to be a lot of talk of censorship and bans.

I would say that there is a huge range of posters on this site from intellects, young to old, to dafties of the same age range too, so it must be tiresome for intelligent people to have to filter through a lot of drivel to read what interests them but does that give them the right to look down on someones opinion with a lower IQ, just because they have a plethora of knowledge. This is a hub for ICT fans and if I was to vote to limit/censor the young or dafties then I would be censoring myself on the latter.

I would like to chuck a few negative minded critical loud mouth individuals out of the home stand but unfortunately I dont have any greater right to be there than them. So is it a case of emphasising 'Not to cause offence to fellow users of this site and to be more aware of the forum rules'.

There needs to be a structure available to the moderators/admin to deal with those posters who dont adhere to the site rules. I think we have pretty much agreed to rework the current rules into a shorter set of "golden rules" and these will be in plain English. I have already borrowed Davie's "golden rule" suggestion and we will probably look to develop a structured system (i like the yellow/red card idea to keep it football related) so that people (and the mods) know what and where the boundaries are. Communication of this will be key.

Any rules will deal more with conduct than content (other than the requisite reference to -isms or inappropriate material). I think I have made it plain that age will not be one of the criteria for exclusion and neither will IQ ... i think we can all be a bit of a "daftie" at times so we would have to exclude ourselves :004:

I would like to see this site closed. Now before you start rolling up the sleeves, how about closing this site a week after the end of the season for a few weeks, It would give the people who run this site a timely break, not much will happen over this period anyway and it will remind people not to take this site for granted and to appreciate it a little more.

That is a very interesting suggestion. not really sure what to say other than we might have to involuntarily do that anyway when we take the plunge and transfer the site from our current hosts (with all the downtime) and move it to our new hosts ... it will likely take a few days for the new address to resolve over the internet so the site would be inaccessible during that time

Most football forums are full of ill-informed idiots arguing about things they barely understand and find impossible to articulate. Would we have it any other way? All forums have these debates, issues with 'schoolkid' posters, problems with the mods. To my mind it's part and parcel of a forum.

:D Succinct and straight to the jugular - absolutely spot on.

Every forum should have erseholes like poor old Renegade and myself - but nobody protects or listens to me when I am being abused as I regularly am :D

self-abuse doesnt count :D

That's the point though RiG, I'd be more worried if it had succeeded. We don't need factions within what is, in essence, a small support. I understand where they are coming from when I read posts like Caleymad in Berks above: I don't agree with some of it, but I think that you are entitled to your point of view and to voice it. But why the need to point out the spelling? It just creates more division over a point that didn't need to be made. One thing that is correct here, though, is that the "younger" posters on here are the opinion formers of the future for this club, and they need to be encouraged unconditionally.

Your last seven words concern me. I do not think the 'younger posters' require to be encouraged unconditionally, they require to toe the line when posting and accept that a certain standard has to be set.

If they require to be Forum upstarts let them blow off steam on P & B and come on here once they have seen sense.

I have posted, in the past, my appreciation of this forum but there is no doubt that in the recent past postings have gone downhill.

If we accept that postings must reflect the onfield/support behaviour then we are in for a hard time on here. Losing in this league is something we will have to get used to but we could still end up in a good place - better placed for next season for instance.

Childish postings should not be tolerated.

I feel we are suffering from a small minority of 'problem puppies' and this should not spoil it for the rest of us.

.

Sorry, I'm late in coming back to this (that work thing again) and the argument has probably moved on again. Again, absent friend, I respect but don't agree with your point of view. My use of the word "unconditional" was carefully considered and used because the "conditions" of use of this site are not at all clear (in a broad sense). If they are not, people will seek to impose their own conditions ("childish postings etc. , problem puppies, upstarts) If that happens, like any diverse family, we will descend into acrimony. That's when the parents go "......this for a game of soldiers" and...you get the picture. Accept that people hold different views. Accept that they will wind each other up and if they are young and pushing it (isn't that what young people do?) shake your head, point out a better way and realise it's a long game and they will learn. If they don't, we might just have to live without them. But not arbitarily and only if they understand fully the rules that they have broken. I'm sorry that 7 words concerned you; it should have only been the 1.

That's the point though RiG, I'd be more worried if it had succeeded. We don't need factions within what is, in essence, a small support. I understand where they are coming from when I read posts like Caleymad in Berks above: I don't agree with some of it, but I think that you are entitled to your point of view and to voice it. But why the need to point out the spelling? It just creates more division over a point that didn't need to be made. One thing that is correct here, though, is that the "younger" posters on here are the opinion formers of the future for this club, and they need to be encouraged unconditionally.

Your last seven words concern me. I do not think the 'younger posters' require to be encouraged unconditionally, they require to toe the line when posting and accept that a certain standard has to be set.

If they require to be Forum upstarts let them blow off steam on P & B and come on here once they have seen sense.

I have posted, in the past, my appreciation of this forum but there is no doubt that in the recent past postings have gone downhill.

If we accept that postings must reflect the onfield/support behaviour then we are in for a hard time on here. Losing in this league is something we will have to get used to but we could still end up in a good place - better placed for next season for instance.

Childish postings should not be tolerated.

I feel we are suffering from a small minority of 'problem puppies' and this should not spoil it for the rest of us.

.

Sorry, I'm late in coming back to this (that work thing again) and the argument has probably moved on again. Again, absent friend, I respect but don't agree with your point of view. My use of the word "unconditional" was carefully considered and used because the "conditions" of use of this site are not at all clear (in a broad sense). If they are not, people will seek to impose their own conditions ("childish postings etc. , problem puppies, upstarts) If that happens, like any diverse family, we will descend into acrimony. That's when the parents go "......this for a game of soldiers" and...you get the picture. Accept that people hold different views. Accept that they will wind each other up and if they are young and pushing it (isn't that what young people do?) shake your head, point out a better way and realise it's a long game and they will learn. If they don't, we might just have to live without them. But not arbitarily and only if they understand fully the rules that they have broken. I'm sorry that 7 words concerned you; it should have only been the 1.

Sorry Davie but I must agree with AF here,

On the one hand you say we should encourage them unconditionally, then you state that if they don't learn then we will have to live without them. That sort of contradicts itself.

If we allow any group (Young or old) to do what they wish without rules and regs in any part of life then we descend into anarchy. That may seem a bit strong for a forum but you get the message. You also state that if we don't agree, shake our heads and point out that it's a long game. Ok and if they still keep slagging you or somebody else do we just encourage them unconditionally? You state the rules of the site are not clear enough. I do not need rules to tell me to respect others and try to add objective posts rather than some of the vile bigotted drivel that has been posted on here in the recent past.

I do accept that the younger posters are the future of the club but please don't bury us old farts just yet some of us still have a bit of life left in us.

I have no problem with the encouragement of the posters themselves .... the posts however would be subject to the same conditions as everyone else

Well Davie., problem puppies are found in any age bracket and whilst I accept my post 'attacked' the younger poster, you will find, in the recent past i.e. this week, that I have encouraged a young poster to consider the presentation and not the content, of their post, that is constructive.

It is without doubt a requirement to have younger blood introduced into this forum BUT they must be aware that there are boundries and whilst they may be 'in your face' - their postings must be embraced by 'respect for others'.

Now my older 'problem puppies' are also as above but they should know better!!

We all have the right to our views and indeed that is the richness of this forum - to debate is healthy - to attack the poster for holding differing views is childish in the extreme.

I have been labelled a 'muppet lover' a 'sweetie rustler' 'an idiot' etc because I do not accept booing of our players, unsupported criticism of the Board, that a loss is not the end of the world, even to the County but I can accept that this is in the spirit of the time and the hurting is there for all to see.

This is miles away from the problem being discussed by Scotty in my opinion and whilst a 'sack the board' 'sack the manager' is to be expected after a defeat, it is the long after negatitivy that undermines the enjoyment.

Anyway, roll on Sunday, get the sweeties ready and find a quite corner away from all the noise!!

.

Is Scotty's post at 101 the longest ever recorded in the history of CTO?

As a PS to the forgoing .... Why can't I attack the young guys on here??

Parental funding, full sex life, no work concerns AND a full head of hair!!

Attack them??? I hate THEM!!

What jealousy?

As a PS to the forgoing .... Why can't I attack the young guys on here??

Parental funding, full sex life, no work concerns AND a full head of hair!!

Attack them??? I hate THEM!!

What jealousy?

Listen, as one GOM (grumpy old man) to another I couldn't agree with you more. You could add them; travelling to places you've never been at your expense, having cool toys that you never had, being mair talented at football than you ever were. It's hellish, it really is. And say what you like, I'll not be calling you an eejit or anything else for that matter. It's your point of view.

Is Scotty's post at 101 the longest ever recorded in the history of CTO?

no

Is Scotty's post at 101 the longest ever recorded in the history of CTO?

no

Is Scotty's post at 114 the shortest ?

Is Scotty's post at 101 the longest ever recorded in the history of CTO?

no

What is then?

lets stay on topic please.

I think that a few good suggestions have been mentioned.

Golden Rules

3 week break

Yellow/Red cards

Though i regard myself as articulate, (and modest) i am not bothered if something written by someone else is not. As long as it attempts to add something to the discussion (i.e. isn't just an insult) then it doesn't cross my mind.

Younger users are the lifeblood of this forum. Eventually, one day, when Scotty and Caley D hang up their boots (or should it be mice) then one would hope that someone would keep the home fires burning. That will invariably (just proving my articulateness here...) be some young whippersnapper. Is there anyway the forum could encourage them to be more involved?

At present, some (and certainly not all) younglings are far too removed from the site (as in have never met scotty/caleyd, or any of the mods, and haven't been in the pubs yet to meet the other 97% demographic) to really care about the integrity of the site. Some initiatives could help self-moderation (until they get into the pubs)

Any thoughts on this?

Yep, you have just provided us with the perfect solution.

The Whippersnappers Forum.

I'll have a guinness thanks.

I reckon you should just ban the people that repeatedly annoy you. Even better, you could block the offending posters so no-one, apart from other offending posters can see what is being said, so they can argue and name call forever and ever, whilst no-one else is even aware of it.

Written word has always been the hardest way to express sarcasm and a lot of offense starts from this. I was in a foundation English class in school, which I thought was as low as it got but some of the writing on this site is impossible to make sense of, which leaves me wondering how much lower it goes? It's hard not to comment on it sometimes, especially because this takes place in spite of the built in speel checker. Despite this, I realise that attacking a person's education is always going to lead a thread to an irritating and messy conclusion so I'll never do it again.

I respect the mods, even if that's after a couple of personal messages to remind me that was is said on this site can be seen by any member of the public. I admire the amount of time I assume you all put in because I spend large chunks of my bosses time reading the posts on here, and still don't get through it all, and I have the luxury of ignoring bitchy threads. It must take all the mods a significant amount of your free time. I'm glad your feelings have been expressed, instead of you keeping it all to yourself and then one day suddenly pulling the plug. This site is a vital information hub for ICT (and Dundee) fans and is hugely appreciated.

PS. The friends only invite is an excellent idea is it provides posters with a little accountability.

PPS. We're not a big enough club to satisfy the modern desire for 24 hour, 365 days a year news that a lot of the modern EPL/champions league force fed football fans (me) require, and this could lead to people posting for the sake of creating an argument, to keep them occupied (not me).

Can you do something about the amount of smileys certain posters use? Some folk seem to go a bit nuts with them and it makes the site look a bit unprofessional at times IMO.

I reckon you should just ban the people that repeatedly annoy you. Even better, you could block the offending posters so no-one, apart from other offending posters can see what is being said, so they can argue and name call forever and ever, whilst no-one else is even aware of it.

Written word has always been the hardest way to express sarcasm and a lot of offense starts from this. I was in a foundation English class in school, which I thought was as low as it got but some of the writing on this site is impossible to make sense of, which leaves me wondering how much lower it goes? It's hard not to comment on it sometimes, especially because this takes place in spite of the built in speel checker. Despite this, I realise that attacking a person's education is always going to lead a thread to an irritating and messy conclusion so I'll never do it again.

I respect the mods, even if that's after a couple of personal messages to remind me that was is said on this site can be seen by any member of the public. I admire the amount of time I assume you all put in because I spend large chunks of my bosses time reading the posts on here, and still don't get through it all, and I have the luxury of ignoring bitchy threads. It must take all the mods a significant amount of your free time. I'm glad your feelings have been expressed, instead of you keeping it all to yourself and then one day suddenly pulling the plug. This site is a vital information hub for ICT (and Dundee) fans and is hugely appreciated.

PS. The friends only invite is an excellent idea is it provides posters with a little accountability.

PPS. We're not a big enough club to satisfy the modern desire for 24 hour, 365 days a year news that a lot of the modern EPL/champions league force fed football fans (me) require, and this could lead to people posting for the sake of creating an argument, to keep them occupied (not me).

Like others you probably never stop to think that badly written english may not be the result of poor education. Have you thought to consider that some of the poorer writers may well have problems such as dislexia, learning disabilities, etc. They may also be people who's first language is not english. To bully and abuse them for the way they write, in my mind, is sick. We are not all gifted with perfection.

Hear here

I have to agree with The Knowledge. If you can't at least try to post in English, using punctuation and grammar etc to the best of your ability, as well as posting in a normal manner (not this new line for every phrase nonsense), then you shouldn't even try at all.

Edited November 27, 200916 yr by Renegade

we are in danger of going off-topic here. I note the point about spelling/grammar etc but we dont need to discuss the merits of education or dyslexia in this thread - start a new one for that if you wish.

I will be posting a summary of what I feel we have gained from this thread and what I think is the way forward in the near future but as stated in the first post, we are still open to constructive suggestions.

I will note however that since this thread has been posted there has been a lot less moderation required and a lot less abuse on the forums so if nothing else, it has served to get us back on track at least somewhat and for that I thank those posters who have made the effort.

I have to agree with The Knowledge. If you can't at least try to post in English, using punctuation and grammar etc to the best of your ability, as well as posting in a normal manner (not this new line for every phrase nonsense), then you shouldn't even try at all.

This isn't a English class, if it's readable who really cares!

One thing i might suggest is when posts are either edited/deleted by mods/admins, it could be under the banner "CTO Staff" or something similar?. That way nobody knows who did it, therefore no personal attacks against the mods?

At the same time, like has been suggested before, no post counts and titles! I'm a member on several other sites and this does create a "I'm better than you mentality" especially with established members who think there views are the be all and end all, with a lot of 'established' members jumping on the bandwagon! And putting off new members??

This is a supporters website. Somewhere you can express your views and get other peoples points of view back. Not everyone will agree. But is that not the whole point of forums? Or have i missed something?

Edited November 29, 200916 yr by Mick