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Just what we need - more negativity. So they're heroes when we're winning in the first division, but you're criticising them although we're secure in the first season back in the SPL? We lost to the Scottish Cup holders tonight.

Dougal has expressed an opinion and for what it's worth, I agree with him in the main. We are playing very poorly and I don't buy all the missing players bit. Yes, we have guys out, but we are not the only team that suffers from this. Last night we looked like a highland league side out of our depth. Terrible to watch and second to every ball, with no hope of changing the pattern with the players we had on the bench. Does that make the OP wrong. No it makes it 100% correct. If you don't like the post, debate it, don't just call it crap and walk away.

Terry and Mo have done wonders for ICT in many ways but they also appear to be "protected species" in terms of criticism. Shure they have had their problems in regard to injuries, suspensions etc and probably more than most teams with a similar budget etc - especially in regard to important players BUT: Some of their tactical, positional and selection changes have been very reactive - often in respect of a game to game mentality. I am very surprised that they have not especially settled on the first choice back four, sticking by it, keeping the main men in the same position if available, using the individuals in reserve to fill in particular positions and being frankly brutal and consistent in this respect. Playing individuals "out of position" does nothing for those players either or the ones they depose. And blind faith in certain individuals - which clearly frustrates the fans must have an effect on the players. Their also appears to be a game to game "blame" mentality adopted by fans I am afraid that central midfield is very much the same scenario. It simply doesnt help the team, individuals, morale and confidence not knowing if you are playing from week to week, not knowing what position that you are playing in or what tactics and formation that the team are going to adopt. Only Esson, Hayes, Foran and Rooney appear to have been exempted plus for long periods it has tended to apply to Shinnie and Ross - and are those players the ones who have also performed more consistently ? Do Terry and MO actually know what their best X1 is ? This is not a Terry and Mo out call but they have to shoulder a lot of the blame for the last few months. They won the SFL by sticking to the same game plan - why not start it off again in the SPL - starting now. If they had faith in the system and the players that started last nite they should have the conviction - and the B88lixcks to adhere to it. and before I get lamblasted have a look again at the Best x1 thread as last nights selection was NOT that far away from what many of the armchair pundits selected. Getting Top 6 is now a bonus but continuity and improvement is all I am asking for - plus a win against the Old Filth and a day out at Hampden. My advice to Tel is to pick his teams like he picks his red wine.

On the other hand, it would be nice to see Lennon's face when we say "Sorry, we can't come to Parkhead that weekend, we've got the Oban tournament!"

This thread just sums up SOME of the posters on this forum...absolutely pathetic.

the performances are bad but top 6 aint over unlikely but still not over so all we can do is get behind them even if they are playing pants and hope that our last 5 league matches see us play well and pick up points. Look at Saturday as the game that will make or break the season. A win and we are 1 point behind motherwell and depending on killies result 3 behind them. Dundee utd still have lots of games to play so even though it is disappointing after such a promising first half we must remember where we were 12 months ago we never looked like being in the SPL let alone having a chance of a top 6 spot with 5 league games until the split so lets get behind the boys and support them watever happens at the end of april. We are punching above our weight but we havent become a terrible team overnight just maybe lacking confidence and hopefully with hayes fit again we can play better stuff the fitter he gets COMON ICT

For what its worth ... and to answer the question posed in the original post, NO, I do not believe they have taken us as far as they can. They were heroes last season and for most of this season so far ..... so we have lost a few games, and the manner in which we have lost may not be pleasant but its way too early for this Brewsteresque shoe-waving rhetoric. However, I am not going to give the OP a red dot as its a valid topic on a valid subject and although I disagree with the content, the post itself is a valid opinion and question. Where I do take issue though is the comments I quoted above !!! This is something that has been thrown at me (or more specifically the site) for the past seventeen years !!! "Ach I dont go there,its full of neggy b******s", "Nahh, too many folk who are quick to criticise", "cant be a**** getting into an argument", "I hate you, you fat b******" (oops, that last one wasnt meant to get in there !!!! just a little bit of self-deprecating humour so you know I am not offended, just frustrated at the usual excuses !!!) My answer now is the same as it has been for each and every one of those seventeen years ..... If you dont post because of the negativity (or crap), do you not think it somewhat hypocritical to post negativity about the site itself ? I always tell people the same thing ..... if you want it to be full of more positive posts, and you have a positive attitude, then instead of bitching and moaning about the perceived negativity of the site, come in and contribute rather than reading the posts and being negative about the site yourself. There is plenty of room for a multitude of opinions be they positive, negative or somewhat neutral .... some of us can actually hold a reasoned debate and even respect opinions we may not necessarily agree with ... and hell, you can even choose to be anonymous and hide behind a pseudonym if you want !

We have blown our best chance so far for a top 6 place and we have no one to blame but ourselves. We got bowled over like a band of skittles tonight by some of the most inept displays of football i've seen from us in years. Sure, we started well and almost sneaked ahead but slowly but surely we let United back into the game and were punished for doing so. Everytime we got into a good position we either screwed up with a combination of things. We either gave it away, played it out or fell over. We lacked any first touch and shooting chances turned into wasted crosses. Quite frankly i'm glad we won't be finishing in the top 6 as it is clear we're losing our bottle. I understand that we were patched together again in terms of a team but tonight we were meant to have enough craft to carve out a result. Simply didn't happen.

Ach, it's no the ref's fault we are sh*te. With a bit of luck we could have scored, but it would be pushing the boat out too far to say we deserved anything from this game. Good effort by Foran and good save by Pernis. Another effort ricocheted around their box but no takers, a couple of good low balls fizzed across the box in second half, again no takers and lastly another headed effort from Rooney that he would rather not be reminded of, he should have scored. But the standard of our play in between these moments was horrendous, absolutely garbage. Kick it anywhere stuff, just the way you are facing. Rossco was lucky to stay on the park, although I thought his booking was a little harsh, the ref obviously thought the same and never sent him off for the second scything tackle which should have really been a second yellow, lucky loon. We have no providers at all. Nick Ross showed absolutely nothing, schoolboy stuff, like a frightened rabbit in the headlights and Jonny showed glimpses, but was not fit enough to work hard. Innes is not good enough, he's finished, and Grant and Rossco should be the stoppers. Cox was one of a select few who gets plus marks from me. All in all, an embarrassing game to watch from an ICT perspective, United however will not be complaining. Come on guys, we are suffering at the moment, pick yourselves up and get stuck in, oh, Terry, you will need Russell Duncan for that by the way.

These type of threads were always going to come up when our amazing start to the season cooled off. If we were in the same league position and had this many points but had gained them in a slow and steady manner rather than lots at the start and very little lately I doubt we'd be having this discussion at all. We are in a good, if not better than good position for who we are. TB and MM have done a very, very good job since they came in. All of these set backs and trials will only help them improve and get better as a management team. So to question the management teams abilities or plant the seeds of 'The management must go' rubbish is just that... rubbish. I think Doran was a very good signing for us in January and with the many injuries we have had we have coped pretty well considering, some credit to TB and MM here surely. As for this talk of "when we attack we win", I have to disagree, so many points we gained away from home were gained by defending well and attacking on the break. I think that our biggest problem is that we don't seem to know how best to play at home. Many of our home crowd are w@nkers expect us to attack and entertain at home, we are just not good enough to take many of the other SPL teams apart like this and I feel we just don't quite know how we should play. For what little it's worth I believe that we don't use the width of our home pitch to our full advantage but what would I know, I'm not a manager, nor have I ever played at any level worth any merit, I am merely a (biased) fan. Let's not start all this "The management don't know what they are doing" rubbish as it is just rubbish and if you disagree then just who do you think would do a better job?

Having either Gillet or Shinnie back would help in the LB position Munro is getting slated for. Presumably Golly's just not got it anymore for Munro to have to get back there. Can't blame Butcher for that. How many players can we have for one position? We don't have a top six central midfielder. They're difficult to find. Duncan, Cox, Duff, Ross, Sanchez, Blumanshtein - all bottom six/SFL1, in my opinion (some hope for Ross mind you). Butcher's fault? I don't see how. I'm sure he'd love one. It's been the missing piece of the jigsaw since Black left, but where could we find a ready made replacement for no fee and low wages? Get one in and it's a game changer. Tactics. Well, I think there might be something in there. 4-2-3-1 was so successful away from home because it's a counter-attacking style. That's also what made it so bad at home, when we were more likely to attack/dominate. I'd be in favour of having a home and away system. It seems we pretty much have one system for all, then change that wholesale for another. I don't agree that Butcher was dismissed from Coventry for the long-ball. I think it was more political, with Ron Atkinson (a big cheese then) giving his interest. The club then invested a lot of money (Butcher IIRC made a profit) for not a lot of results. Sure, they played a more attacking style but spent the money on players that could do that, plus ended up no better off (in fact, worse off). At the end up, if we finish one better than any of Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd or Motherwell, then ICT have far exceeded my expectations for this season. I see Killie (flying high I know), St Mirren, St J and Accies as our mini-league. Finishing anywhere in the top 3 of that is a good season for a newly promoted club.

Last night's result (and game) both shockers - 4 pts out of 12 so far is not top 6 form - the club really does need a big crowd and a big attitude change on Saturday if any lingering hopes are to be maintained of not having to play Hamilton again this season. Not sure how many who witnessed last night's inept performance might decide to just give it a miss and seek some counselling instead. The most disappointing thing for me is the players' response - if we are getting beaten in these games after giving it everything then I think the majority would accept that but there appears to be no spark about the team. I am not sure how much each league place is worth to the club but any budgeting for next season should be based on being 10th as I still believe we are better team than both St.Mirren and Hamilton but that doesn't really say much. There is still another 15 pts to be played for before the split but after last night's performance I am not sure where the next point will come from. The interesting thing is the next 5 games are against 5 of the current top 6 teams so the club has the chance to show everybody how we would perform if we were in the top 6 - I eagerly await the team's response on Saturday....though it must be said more in hope than faith this morning.... February St.Mirren (A) 3-3 D St.Johnstone (H) 2-0 W Hibs (A) 2-0 L March Dundee United (H) 0-2 L Motherwell (H) Dundee Utd (A) April Celtic (H) Kilmarnock (A) Hearts (H)

I actually happen to think that the OP makes a valid point. The long ball is garbage and I do happen to think that it is a trait that Butcher does seem to favour. At Coventry, Butcher was fired with a FA Cup Replay still to play, and due apparently to Butcher's fondness of the long ball, it was an easier decision to boot him. Sydney FC was much the same thing. Gone were the sharp brown suits, passing-based football and A League title of Pierre Littbarski, and in was the training suited, punt-it-up-park football of Terry Butcher. The Sydney trophy cabinet was also noticeably empty that season. Like many others on this forum, I've been to more games in my life than I can think of and I will categorically say that ICT are unquestionably a better side when the ball is on the deck. Look at the facts. ICT are an attacking side, who have always benefited from using the width of the pitch to get the ball wide. It's no coincidence that ICT's greatest ever manager - Steve Paterson - made his success using ultra-attacking football. It's also no coincidence that ICT's worst two managers, Sergie Baltacha and Craig Brewster, failed with ICT, while using a defensive, long ball system in the process. It's also interesting to note that season, Terry Butcher's ICT only began their road to success, when a more attacking approach was taken. When ICT defend they lose, when they attack, they win. ICT should aim to attack - that's a fact.

I was disappointed tonight that we lost. I even toyed with the idea of driving up for it. To come on here and see this thread makes me feel sad. I love going to watch ICT. I like the fact that the players don't get paid ridiculous wages which I subsidise. I respect the manager - he comes across as a gentleman. I think the backroom staff do a tremendous job and go out of their way to help - they'll go an extra mile to help people and make visitors to the stadium feel welcome. There are too many people who expect to be 'entertained'. Are you watching just any game, or are you there to support ICT? Scottish football is part of our culture. ICT are a worthy part of the game and anyone who you speak to who is involved with the game at the highest level have only positive things to say about the club and the way it is run. This negativity is putting a lot of people off posting on here and it's time to take a big reality check.

Why can't posters give red dots to ignored users? Oh well unignore red dot ignore

If I was disasppointed by Saturday, I'm near suicidal about that. We were woeful. What was TB thinking about, fielding a slow back 4 entirely composed of centre backs against Conway and Swanson. It was a car crash waiting to happen and duly did. Rosscoe had his worst game in years and should have been sent off in the first half. Innes is past it, couldn't cope with what was a pretty average arab front line and midfield was overrun. When Prince Bawbag came on we were well and truly stuffed. Russel Duncan needed to be on the park tonight and to be honest it looks as if his face doesn't fit if he can't get a game in there. Still, if we were rank, we pale into insignificance beside that ref.

Duncan was sorely mised tonight. A poor performance all round - made worse by a totally inept referee and a stand-side linesman who never seemed to understand why he was there.

I've never left early before, but I was sorely tempted to do so tonight, even when it was 0-0. That was just simply an abysmal game of football; to charge £26 for a ticket for that is a scandal. I expect a deluge of complaints about the ref to follow, but I thought he was no worse than most of the duffers we've had this season, and he let our back four kick the s*** out of their forwards in the first half. Innes makes up for his lack of mobility (and ability) by being one of the dirtiest, nastiest players I've seen in our colours - a shirt tug here, a kick in the back of the ankles there. The United players were falling over like ninepins in the second half, but if I was being generous I would say it was because they expected someone to halve them. We started brightly...and then it all faded after Doran was injured and we ditched two up front. With Foran deep we were pushed further and further back, with only a half-fit Hayes offering a threat. United were basically the least-bad team; my first thought for their first goal was that Innes had been fouled in the buildup, but he didn't appeal for it so I suspect he just made an @rse of it. Pass marks to Esson, as usual, and Cox as well for effort. I don't think anyone else deserves any plaudits. Why was Duncan dropped? That was just an utterly terrible game of football, one of the poorest I have ever seen. In fact, our performance resembled Hamilton whenever they came up here. Thats how bad and negative we seemed to be. (rant over!)

So where does the "we" come from ? And it is ICT not ITC Lawrence. Were you at Tannadice ? Were you at Ibrox ? Were you at Parkhead ? Were you at Rugby Park ? No - we were. What fecker asked you to visit ? Must have been a whining, disloyal sweetie rustler - go and watch the Old firm if ya want to glory hunt in Scotland.

I would also like to see long sleeved tops, but unlike yourself I don't see the reason for the club not ordering them? Every season I am told there is not enough demand for them, how do they know, they have never ordered them, none of us have ever been given the chance to buy one! I can think of roughly 10 of my mates straight away that would choose the long sleeved over short sleeved. Plus 2 of you have already said on here you would prefer long sleeved, so there obviously is demand. If Ross County can provide long sleeved tops, I fail to see why we can't. Next season's new away top, here's hoping!

The OP asks, Have they taken the club as far as they can? I'd say NO! I'd then ask. Have the club taken ICT as far as they can? We are a small club with a small fanbase. The players we have work their socks of to achieve success but many of them are not of a standard to win that success on a regular basis. We are troubled by injury within a small squad. We're having to start players who aren't match fit. We can't afford a big enough squad to cover every eventuallity. As was said on another thread, we are a Div 1 club punching above our weight. Butcher and Malpas came in too late to rescue the drop, though they were only a goal away from it. They took us straight back up. They've taken us beyond the relegation zone and they will take us to as high a position as they can in what is their first full season in this league with this team. They will have learned a great deal on the way to where we are and they will apply that learning as long as they remain with us. This season is far from being over and there are a few opportunities left to reach somewhere we have never been before.

With games in hand etc we are probaly going to be 10th, yes at the start of the seadon we would have been happy with 11th but things change in football, and looking at butcher after last night its a man lacking ideas, even in the press he admitted it, i always say the signs of a struggling manager is one who keeps changing his team, this aint happened yet but i can see it coming, if hamilton start getting wins we COULD be in trouble, yes they are a long way behind but seriously any sign of us picking up points? look at how players at the start of the season to now, nick ross? is he even the same player? tokely attitude is back, rooney come on he is becoming a joke now, odhiambo dont even get me started, we are not in trouble yet, butcher job aint under threat yet, but football is a funny game so nobody knows what will happen

Thanks Top Six Next Year. Thought I was the only one who can see some kind of sense! This sort of crap is why I don't bother posting on here too often!

Top six bigging up the Innes Bar,whatever next

We always struggle when Russell is dropped/scapegoat, yet Cox is picked ahead of him. Said it before and will repeat, Cox is no match for Duncan in any shape or form and his backtracking in particular infuriates me..........just gives up and looks as though he can't be arsed.

I'm bitterly dissapointed not because of the result as United were the better team but it was the way we lost, I lost count how many hoof up the parks were played tonight by Tokely and Munro There was very little football played on the deck, there was no passion and to be honest very little if any entertainment Our home performances have been nothing short of an embarrassment this season and I now really have doubts about our management duo and the tactics they seem to be deploying I am in no way calling for their heads(not yet anyway) in this thread but I believe its about time they tried something new tactic wise because if they don't they are going to see dramatic reductions in attendance at the Caledonian Stadium for the remainder of the season I shudder to think where we would be if we hadn't had such a good start and picked up all the points we got on the road C'mon Terry & Mo i'm afraid what we are having to endure from November time isn't good enough dougal