On the way home from todays game, a good point for us and an encouraging performance.

However... The stewarding seemed very excessive today, for most of the time there was a mixture of over 20 Cops and stewards hanging around the small section, maybe 50/75 younger fans at the back of the stand. At the time I thought the reaction from the stewards was OTT as almost straight from kick off they were in and pulling people out for standing. Having the local polis up and blocking half the stairways didn't help and all in all it just seemed a bit daft. The unfortunate consequence was that the longer the hi viz presence remained, the more the fans played up to it, which didn't help the situation in the least.

Just wonder what people thought of it today, whether the Polis/security overreacted and caused the young guys to play up a bit or whether the young guys should have just complied and done as told?

For what it's worth, I didn't see anything that was really a problem and still can't understand why the Police were hanging around on the stairways. I'd go as far to say that episodes like today may well explain why a lot of fans are put off from going to games as it seems it is all too often this is how the authorities treat paying customers.

Not everybody that attended the game was spoken to by the police/stewards. I enjoyed the afternoons entertainment, but why do we need to have our own fans indulging in this game with the stewards. This comment may not be to everyones liking, especially those that were targetted by the stewards, but lots of folk attended the match without any hassle. I appreciate that the stewarding was not handled very diplomatically, but why is it always the same ones under scrutiny? Does that mean that stewards across the country are all wrong or god forbid, are there some fans not adhering to the policies within the SPL stadiums. In fact, this goes on all over the leagues if they care to uphold the letter of the law. We were asked to sit down at QOS last season. I stood up on occasion at Easter road but being longer in the tooth than most, I sat down after my outbursts and nobody approached me.

It takes two to tango, so unless we are squeaky clean and within our rights, then do we have a leg to stand on............erm, maybe thats not the wisest cliche to use, but you know what I mean.

They have the CCTV footage, not us.

Weren't you involved in this one?

Sanctimonious old git!

Great photos on caleyjags.com - seem to be all of the first half

But piccies 29 and 34 are works of feckin art - oh and play a game and spot IHE standing in any of the crowd piccies - spot Wally in piccies 11 / 19 - from what I can see Highland Exile should have been booted out not me !!!

See what effect Moray Wanderers armpit aroma had on the local polis in piccy 19 !!

Look at the support - are they taunting the stewards and the polis - or do they look like they are actually trying to watch the game and enjoy themselves.

I now get why they chucked Peter out as they were talking about inciting the crowd to stand up at half time to the two of us - PATHETIC.

Anyway those piccies bring this thread to an end to me - i just hope that there is a further thread with a post from the Supporters Trust to the Hibees - and tell them to put the caleyjags.com piccies on view.

But who is the new "firm" roaming the back streets of Leith after the game - and was Peter not taking a big gamble there

New Chant at Paisley - There is only one Peter Paul

Indeed I was standing at Killie, but nobody asked me to remain in my seat.

Thanks for the negative dots by the way.

I posted this, not because I think the stewards are correct, but because some of our own fans are threatening to stop going along to Easter Road. Why? It's a fantastic ground, normally a great atmosphere and sometimes three points for us. I see no reason whatsoever that young guys should spend ?60-?80 on a day out to watch a few minutes of football before being removed from the ground. Money must be easy to come by these days. Is it a game....lets see who can get thrown out first, after all they won't throw us in the cells and we can go to the pub and watch the scores there?

Sorry, but I am missing the point of supporting our own team here. Yes the stewards were ridiculous, not only at Easter Road though. Maybe some folk need to look at their own actions before condemning the actions of those enforcing the rules. Some of it is for safety, but in this case it is for sheer jobsworthiness.

If fans are prepared to bend the rules, should they not expect to face the inevitable repercussions that go along with this?

The Hibs fans are backing us, they probably want to stand as well, but without seeing it and hearing it close up they don't know the whole story. Too many wind ups going on and if someone did that to you in the street you would probably lamp them.

Bottom line for me, is enjoy the day out, support the team and stay within the regulations, then nobody can have any complaints, not even the stewards.

Well m sitting down in all the pics on caleyjags lol! Lovely shot of Miss Jobsworth in one - that woman needs to go on a customer relations course.

Oh and someone needs to go on hibs.net and explain the shoe thing!

Edited September 15, 201015 yr by old caley girl

lol IHE - but I was on my last warning from Hitler woman!!!! Think it was more by luck than anything else that I saw the whole game.

lol IHE - but I was on my last warning from Hitler woman!!!! Think it was more by luck than anything else that I saw the whole game.

Such a hooligan lol! I'll vouch that there was no goading etc in our corner just singing. Pity all the pics are from the 1st half.

Edited September 15, 201015 yr by old caley girl

"Lothian and Borders police said that they issued one fixed penalty notice during the match, and that there was no arrest. A spokeswoman for the force said: ?We believe that our police response was proportionate to the circumstances.? From the P&J. Proportionate to what exactly? Peter Paul's photo (I'd love to import it here, but can't) 11 in his easter road slideshow shows 5 visible Police/ Stewards, at least 4 of whom are standing and obstructing people's view. They appear to be surrounding around 80 fans. I don't know what they are at in photo 19, but it appears as if they are looking for some kind of trouble. Why else do you have your hand on your baton? What's that proportionate to? Still, I suppose because it's the Polis that say it we just have to be quiet and obedient and not ctiticise because they protect us from their defined threats. Sound like your point of view? No, it's not mine either and I still ain't heard as to whether or not it was someone from the club that targetted IHE. The whole thing is nearly as unattractive as der Hu*s last night.........

I agree with TM4TJ....to a point.

Everyone knows the rules and by purchasing admittance to the game you agree to adhere to those rules.

However, the problem arises due to "human nature". None of us like being told what to do, especially in an aggressive or insolent manner and many of us don't react kindly to such treatment. When we "break" a rule then none of us can have complaint if we are pulled up on it, however we do have complaint when the action is disproportionate to the "offence" being committed. The more disproportionate the action taken against us, the more we dig our heels in and the more pig headed we get.

Right or wrong, that's human nature, and those working in a steward/police roll should be more aware of that than most.

You then have the fact that as a relatively small travelling support we tend to make it easy for police and stewards to single people and/or small groups out. Add to that the pressure these guys are under from the SPL and the Clubs to spend a disproportionate (there's that word again) amount of time and resources on petty matters such as standing and the odd sweary word instead of dealing with the real problems in some crowds and at some games and it's no wonder the whole thing is a shambles.

Heading slightly off topic, but police and stewards are quick to play the "bigger crowds are harder to handle" excuse....nothing but BS IMO. Why? Because if they are claiming a crowd is too big for them to effectively maintain order then they should not be allowing that crowd to gather in the first place. Solution? Limit the number of tickets supplied to clubs where they have a known problem. It won't happen as we all know that money talks and it's easier for them to get their quotas and/or look like they are dealing with issues by ignoring the main ones and focusing on the easy targets.

I actually think it's a credit to the likes of ourselves and other smaller travelling supports in the SPL that they haven't (yet) caused a major incident as a result of the treatment they face from police and stewards at some grounds.

I also would like to know why the police were in there. It is not against any law/legislation to stand at a football game in Scotland....it is nothing more than an SPL rule. If you are asked to leave by a Steward and refuse, it then becomes a matter of public disorder and police can be asked to assist, but until that point, they have absolutely no jurisdiction whatsoever when it comes to telling you to sit down.

Great post CaleyD. I was wondering what the legal situation would be in terms of a Steward manhandling a child of the age of 16 or under? Are Stewards subjected to an enhanced Disclosure Scotland check and are they trained in restraining people? Purely a hypothetical question and asked out of curiosity.

all stewards go though a Disclosure Scotland check

Hi Guys?

my names Lee Mclennan and a run the Edinburgh and Livingston H.S.C?

I would like to Apologise whole heartedly the way you were all treated at Easter Road i can assure you we are very angry as all we seen it as if you were trying to make an atmosphere, your lads and lassies done a fine job is getting a bit of an atmosphere going and it was outrageous as what our finest and stewarding have done to you.

I have a lot of respect for you guys coming all the way down to Edinburgh and watching your team full credit to you all and a hope you keep continuing to do so.

I have been treated fantastically when i come up to the Highland capital being welcomed to your supporters club for drinks and food. pitty our record is dreadful!!

?but i would have expected the same treatment for all you guys so i will be chasing this up constantly will Hibernian our club and if you have any questions or comments please email me and a will let the club know of them [email protected]

Stuff the Hertz on Saturday ?

Thanks Lee?

As far as I understand it a Steward cannot use Physical Force on anyone unless that person is posing a risk to them, those around them and/or has committed an indictable offence (an offence which would be tried in a magistrates court)...which would allow them to use reasonable force to detain you until a police officer arrives to take over.

The laws for treatment of adults and children is pretty much the same from what I gather, although children do have some additional rights under the Child Protection Act. With regards the enhanced disclosure...not sure. I know that those working security in hospitals, community centres etc are all required to have it as they could potentially have to deal with children and vulnerable adults and it's not a huge leap in logic to say that similar could occur at a football match and as such it should be required.

In short, unless a person (adult or child) is acting in an aggressive/confrontational manner and/or is posing a risk to safety* of others then a Steward should not lay so much as a finger on them.

(*Going by the letter of the law/legislation [sPL Rules are not Law] then standing does not, in itself, pose a risk to safety).

I agree - good post CaleyD - Number 109... welcome back to the land of the supposedly living.

This debate is clearly set to run and run....

I can't believe Mannie's assertion that some of our younger supporters go to away games with the sole object of seeing who can get thrown out first....

Of the many comments on this debacle on various sites - particularly concerning the anomalies regarding the policing of away supporters....This for me, was one of the best I came across - from hibs.net

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Police Harrassment of ICT Fans In South Stand

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It was utterly pathetic and reminded me of the weedgie police at Parkhead and Ibrox. Justifying their overtime by inappropriate and ridiculous intimidating strongarm tactics and trying to stare down a group of young kids for the crime of standing in a completely empty stand and singing to support their team.

They traveled far and paid a lot of money and seemed to be enjoying their day out till the police did their level best to bully them into sitting quietly on their hands. I look forward to our officers behaving in the same way when the south is stuffed with Yams or Huns.

No wonder attendances are falling when fans are treated in that sort of manner. I wonder how many of the ICT fans will be keen to return to Edinburgh after that experience.

The first law of good public order management should be commonsense, a quality utterly absent by the uptight fascists of L & B P D on that performance today. Hibs and ICT officials should have a word.

Edited September 15, 201015 yr by Johnboy

If there is to be consistency a lot of Managers should be cautioned by the police for foul and abusive language.

Don't be so naive as to think we do not have one or two lads who think they are beyond reproach and can do as they please within our support Johnboy. Some were weeded out from the support at TCS last couple of seasons and I hope the club weed out any who appear/reappear this season as they can very quickly spoil things for the majority.

I'm not talking about those who stand and sing and say the odd naughty word. It's the ones who really take piss, blatantly break rules (even when rules have been softened to accommodate a happy medium) and then when it all kicks off they play the victim and/or hang their mates out to dry for problems they have caused.

In my experience it is rarely the instigators who are collared and carted off....IHE being the obvious exception!!!

As far as I understand it a Steward cannot use Physical Force on anyone unless that person is posing a risk to them, those around them and/or has committed an indictable offence (an offence which would be tried in a magistrates court)...which would allow them to use reasonable force to detain you until a police officer arrives to take over.

That's pretty much spot on CaleyD. Also, if the steward asking you to leave is not displaying a valid and sector relevant SIA issued licence, they cannot perform any duties other than a 'Customer Safety' role, essentially an usher type role if you like. If a steward has an SIA badge they will have undergone a basic Disclosure check but not the enhanced disclosure that is required to work with kids, vulnerable adults, etc.

I didn't realise it was actually not illegal to stand up at a football match... Very interesting. Perhaps it would be useful if people could download it and show to the next steward comes to enforce a rule that doesn't exist...?

It is an SPL rule and you agree to adhere to those rules when you enter the stadium so you have no real argument. The point I was making is that standing cannot be used solely as a reason for the use of physical force and/or arrest/police intervention. A steward can ask you to leave for breach of the rules...if you refuse then you have crossed the public disorder line and police can be asked to remove you for THAT reason.

In other words, a policeman cannot come up and throw you out "because you were standing". A steward cannot use force to remove you "because you were standing". You cannot be arrested for being asked to leave "because you were standing" (so long as you leave voluntarily).

With regards the law and standing, lots of people just assume it is legislation off the back of the Taylor Report and the SPL are happy enough for that myth to continue...probably the reason they communicate the rule to clubs via letter as opposed to including it in their own handbook. I have spoken to stewards, supervisors, police and even football club officials who thought it was law/legislation....so it's not just the fans.

I'll dig out the appropriate section from the Stadia Act thingymawhatsit when I get a chance, but it basically says each individual must be submitted to a separate numbered seat....but it says nowhere that you must sit. This is why the problem only really exists within football and no other sport and/or stadium event.

It's tough for the clubs as they have to adhere to the SPL rules as part of their licensing, and as such need to enforce it or face fine/sanction. Even the police (in the majority of my experiences) think it's stupid, but if a steward asks them to intervene because someone has refused to comply with rules and is being ejected then they have no option but to comply.

Unfortunately the whole process top to bottom (and I have seen it) makes little or no allowance for the use of common sense on the part of the individuals who fall along the chain of command.

I was clearly told - as I believe that Peter Paul was - that we were ejected as we were deemed to be inciting others to stand - that was clearly the reason that they gave to me and without a prior warning. They clarified this by saying that by starting off the Bouncee song that I was encouraging all the others. I responded "I started off the Bouncee song to get them to sing and support the team" Their response was that, in their opinion, I did it to get them all to stand up.

So is there actually such a crime as Inciting others to stand up

I was clearly told - as I believe that Peter Paul was - that we were ejected as we were deemed to be inciting others to stand - that was clearly the reason that they gave to me and without a prior warning. They clarified this by saying that by starting off the Bouncee song that I was encouraging all the others. I responded "I started off the Bouncee song to get them to sing and support the team" Their response was that, in their opinion, I did it to get them all to stand up.

So is there actually such a crime as Inciting others to stand up

I very much doubt it! And Ill vouch for you -you did nothing wrong on saturday.

Edited September 15, 201015 yr by old caley girl

Hi Guys

my names Lee Mclennan and a run the Edinburgh and Livingston H.S.C

I would like to Apologise whole heartedly the way you were all treated at Easter Road i can assure you we are very angry as all we seen it as if you were trying to make an atmosphere, your lads and lassies done a fine job is getting a bit of an atmosphere going and it was outrageous as what our finest and stewarding have done to you.

I have a lot of respect for you guys coming all the way down to Edinburgh and watching your team full credit to you all and a hope you keep continuing to do so.

I have been treated fantastically when i come up to the Highland capital being welcomed to your supporters club for drinks and food. pitty our record is dreadful!!

but i would have expected the same treatment for all you guys so i will be chasing this up constantly will Hibernian our club and if you have any questions or comments please email me and a will let the club know of them [email protected]

Stuff the Hertz on Saturday

Thanks Lee

Much appreciated, Lee. Thank you.

Hi Guys

my names Lee Mclennan and a run the Edinburgh and Livingston H.S.C

I would like to Apologise whole heartedly the way you were all treated at Easter Road i can assure you we are very angry as all we seen it as if you were trying to make an atmosphere, your lads and lassies done a fine job is getting a bit of an atmosphere going and it was outrageous as what our finest and stewarding have done to you.

I have a lot of respect for you guys coming all the way down to Edinburgh and watching your team full credit to you all and a hope you keep continuing to do so.

I have been treated fantastically when i come up to the Highland capital being welcomed to your supporters club for drinks and food. pitty our record is dreadful!!

but i would have expected the same treatment for all you guys so i will be chasing this up constantly will Hibernian our club and if you have any questions or comments please email me and a will let the club know of them [email protected]

Stuff the Hertz on Saturday

Thanks Lee

Great to hear that Lee, many thanks for your efforts

Copied this link from Wyness 101 in non ICT

http://www.saintmirren.tv/articles/20100921/saints-singing-section_2233570_2161218

Sounds to me like common sense is starting to prevail,a stand when your singing section.

It would be hypocritical if this doesnt apply to the away end too.

Not sure where St Mirren would stand ( pardon the pun) legally if someone was to be hurt whilst standing in their singing section as I'm pretty certain its against SPL rules and regulations .

I hope theres a dancing section too.