Is back!! And thank goodness for it I would venture. This was my first viewing this term and , as it is so early in the season, I am loathe to criticise anyone . Full marks however must go to Richie for a tireless, motivational shift during which his aeriel prowess was astonishing. Time after time he won the hoof forward with a good knock on..............and of course he scored the goal that wasn't. Is this our best hope this year......a Craig Dargo type working with the imperious Foran? I saw little out there to suggest how we can work the ball any other way. And........oh how we missed Russell Duncan!

PS A bit like Withnail and I...........I went to the football by mistake. See you all in September when sane people start to think about a winter sport

Billy McKay may well be the answer - and evidently the reason for the hoof yetserday was the introduction of theMunro Tokely and Hogg combination and the ommission of Aldred. He is one of the main reasons - plus Piermayr - that we started playing balls out of defence and looking to use the midfielders.

And Russell Duncan would never have lasted the pace yesterday - he has actually left the club.

The long ball has never worked for ICT and probably never will. It's a boring and unimaginative style of play that should never be played by this club.

Edited August 7, 201114 yr by Renegade

The long ball has never worked for ICT and probably never will. It's a boring and unimaginative style of play that should never be played by this club.

Should we stop playing long balls altogether? Perhaps ban all passes longer than 20 yards? There's not point in being dogmatic about this. We got a point that we barely deserved yesterday by resorting to direct football and we'll need to do a lot more of that if we plan on staying in this division.

Tell me Ren - would you prefer to go down playing tiki-taka?

Of course the long ball has it's place - it's worked for other teams, Egil Olsen's Norway and John Beck's Cambridge United to name but two. The problem I have, is that I think the long ball should be, in the majority of times, the last option, but some people seem to think it should be the first option.

On the last part, would I like to see ICT go down playing tiki-taka? Of course not - I would rather see them stay up playing tiki-taka -and there's no reason that they can't have success by playing positive, attacking football, just as was done by Mixu's Kilmarnock last year,

Edited August 7, 201114 yr by Renegade

Of course the long ball has it's place - it's worked for other teams, Egil Olsen's Norway and John Beck's Cambridge United to name but two.

So, while long ball has worked for other teams it "should never be played by this club". Why not?

On the last part, would I like to see ICT go down playing tiki-taka? Of course not - I would rather see them stay up playing tiki-taka -and there's no reason that they can't have success by playing positive, attacking football, just as was done by Mixu's Kilmarnock last year,

Mixu is a pragmatist. When he was at Hibs, they accused him of playing long ball. At Kilmarnock, i believe he made the decision to play the most effective football possible with the tools he had at his disposal rather than on any ideological commitment to passing or attacking football. It was a unique situation in SPL history because Killie had a unique player in their team in the form Alexei Eremenko Jnr, a player who was reputed to earn more money than any other player in the league. Mixu played everything through him and earned a lot more than praise than points.

Ren, i'm not a big fan of the hoof either, i'm just looking at our squad and thinking about how the hell we're going to stay in this league.

What I was alluding to was the distinct absence of the hoof in the pre season friendlies and the evident focus on playing the ball on the ground - out of defence - and trying to find midfielders in space. The main component of that from the back was via Aldred but even Rossoce was thinking in that sense. Even the emphasis was on Esson looking to throw the ball out rather than hoof it too.

I simply though that yesterday we had two central defenders - one not fully fit and not certainly match pace adapted and the other on his weak peg most of the time. The swopping of Permayr and the introduction of Proctor didnt help either and I suspect that the hoof was not a tactic. You could sense that Tansey and Foran were livid with the service.

Of course the hoof can be effective but we have ball players who can mix it between the hoof and the pass. We simply do not have the strikers to match the hoof tactic.

So, while long ball has worked for other teams it "should never be played by this club". Why not?

History proves that ICT are not as successful when they take a more defensive approach. They've always been, since their inception, a better team when the ball is on the deck, and that still rings true today.

Mixu is a pragmatist. When he was at Hibs, they accused him of playing long ball. At Kilmarnock, i believe he made the decision to play the most effective football possible with the tools he had at his disposal rather than on any ideological commitment to passing or attacking football. It was a unique situation in SPL history because Killie had a unique player in their team in the form Alexei Eremenko Jnr, a player who was reputed to earn more money than any other player in the league. Mixu played everything through him and earned a lot more than praise than points.

Ren, i'm not a big fan of the hoof either, i'm just looking at our squad and thinking about how the hell we're going to stay in this league.

While that is true that Mixu had the invaluable asset that was Eremenko (and Taouil for that matter), Mixu has stated that he prefers to play an attacking game and that his quote of Hibs playing a "direct game" was a "misinterpretation" of what he said - obviously though, this can disputed.

To bring it back to ICT here, I think the current squad does have the capabilities and the players to play a successful passing game. Jones, Ross, Cox and in particular Greg Tansey all seem to be very capable of using the ball well. This is can also be emphasised in the way that the team are now blessed with the inclusion of fast, tricky wingers like Doran, Hayes and Tade, all of whom would benefit the use of a good pass out wide for them to run onto and work with - not a big bouncing hoof for them to chase after. Attacking football is the simplest way to victory - and I think that's true here too.

I think its worth pointing out that one Terrence Butcher made a very successful playing career out of hoofing the ball up the park with that trusted left foot of his so you can maybe see why our defenders deploy such tactics from time to time

dougal

I think its worth pointing out that one Terrence Butcher made a very successful playing career out of hoofing the ball up the park with that trusted left foot of his so you can maybe see why our defenders deploy such tactics from time to time

dougal

Possibly the stoopidest ever Dougal response - bit of a time difference there and not exactly part of the modern day coaching manual - apart from maybe Dornoch ?

As a football fan I like to see the ball hitting the back of the net rather than pretty passes, long ball, short ball, dead ball, who cares.

Ah but what style will get you there in the first place in order to do that as much as possible? That's the thing.

With a midfield of Tansey, A.Shinnie, Ross, Hayes and Doran, it would be madness to play the long ball as a first choice. Definitely the short passing game. Foran's also decent in the air but it's not his forte. Nor is it for the more obvious target men of Tade and Sutherland. Slow build up, keeping the ball, rather than a mad blast up and chase.

IHE--what if Dougall believes what he wrote and that is actually his opinion?

Surely he has the right to speak it bravely on here in public without us all tearing this young man to pieces every time he appears on here to express his viewpoint? ...give him a break, for goodness sake.

Sometimes I wonder if I am listening to a pack of wolves surrounding a vulnerable victim, not fans of ICT willing to listen and understand that you and I, just like him, have to learn whats what over time.

If you disagree with him, or me,then speak your piece so we can listen and learn from your views but please do it civilly and respect his right and my right to express what we think without vicious rancour erupting at the drop of a flipping hat. He's a human being and a fan so ease up on him and send him a PM if you are so upset by what he writes and have a personal exchange in private.

In this instance there may even be a grain of truth in what Dougall says about Terry because , frankly, old habits die hard and Terry is indeed from the old school. Who are we to claim Dougall is stupid or wrong and none of us know Terry B so well that we can claim anything about whathe thinks is best for this team. Not me, for sure--- and I am 73 ----

Remember..."Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings comes forth words of wisdom."

With Doran and Hayes in the team nothing wrong with one or the other sitting on the back line waiting for a long ball out wide.

Hayes even kicked a long ball for himself against Hibs. He hoofed it up the park and I thought to myself who he passing to, he was actually passing to himself as he raced up the park and out ran their defender. I wonder if hes quick enough to play against himself at tennis.

Who are we to claim Dougall is stupid?

Edited August 8, 201114 yr by PullMyFinger

IHE--what if Dougall believes what he wrote and that is actually his opinion?

Surely he has the right to speak it bravely on here in public without us all tearing this young man to pieces every time he appears on here to express his viewpoint? ...give him a break, for goodness sake.

Sometimes I wonder if I am listening to a pack of wolves surrounding a vulnerable victim, not fans of ICT willing to listen and understand that you and I, just like him, have to learn whats what over time.

If you disagree with him, or me,then speak your piece so we can listen and learn from your views but please do it civilly and respect his right and my right to express what we think without vicious rancour erupting at the drop of a flipping hat. He's a human being and a fan so ease up on him and send him a PM if you are so upset by what he writes and have a personal exchange in private.

In this instance there may even be a grain of truth in what Dougall says about Terry because , frankly, old habits die hard and Terry is indeed from the old school. Who are we to claim Dougall is stupid or wrong and none of us know Terry B so well that we can claim anything about whathe thinks is best for this team. Not me, for sure--- and I am 73 ----

Remember..."Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings comes forth words of wisdom."

In that case - Feck aff ya doddery old fart :rotflmao: He's got the intelligence and attraction of a feckin shaggy dog with fleas and worms.

"You suffer from the oral-anal reversal problem... you're either talking **** or talking out-of-your-ass, but you don't know which."

A team should play to it's strengths. It makes sense to play the long if you have players up front who can capitalise on that. Rooney often did and when he scored in those situations I don't think there were too many complaints on this forum. But with the team we have now, the long ball should be the option only when trying to keep posession is too risky. We have players capable of keeping the ball and playing a good passing game which should be attractive to watch. Also, keeping posession of the ball puts more pressure on the opposition to do something with it when they get it.

Wouldn't mind a long throw in now and again though - or, for that matter, any throw in that actually goes to one of our own players.

The long ball has never worked for ICT and probably never will. It's a boring and unimaginative style of play that should never be played by this club.

I have always said that ICT play better when they play a passing game and use the width of our pitch (and others) and I stand by that, but there are times when you have to vary your approach and the odd bit of long ball stuff doesnt hurt if it gets the job done. 3 points is the important bit.

On the reverse side of the equation - I have spent all season watching Toronto FC and coach Aron Winter sticks rigidly to the 4-3-3 system that is all about passing and moving and has deadly opposition to anything that bypasses midfield. It works at times (getting better now that Torsten Frings is pulling the strings), and when it does, its great to watch, but when you dont always have players on the park who are comfortable with the system, then its a folly .... hence TFC's record of P25 - W3 D11 L11 !!! and the irony of it all is that the best goal of the season - which I linked to in a thread earlier in the season - was a route one clearance from the TFC keeper to the attacker who hit it first time over the other keeper. an absolute belter and worth the price of admission on its own.

Oh My ! IHE. Feel better dearie? These toys you just threw out are expensive.

What a vicious attack upon a harmless Pimple. And so expressive.

Surely to goodness that's not what you REALLY think is it? Just as well we don't all say what we think then isn't it? Phew! the very thought.

Once the Independent Harmless Ejit but now getting into the Ill-tempered Hurtful Empty vessel bracket. Och!

If poor Dougall is not attractive enough for you then I can only imagine that he's really happy about that? Goodness, the very thought? Man this is scary stuff.

Now be nice and have a good sleep.

It was your feckin request that I became more abusive in the first place - ya dementing moose.

I always wonder game to game if the long ball is a specific tactic. Does TB at teamtalks say "right lads, this week it's on the deck". When we had Rooney as the target man then yes, I could see it being the default strategy as he held it up and committed a couple of defenders to closing him down. And with Hayes on fire for a good part of the last season it was good to watch. But now...

Foran is not Rooney. His strengths are elsewhere - bringing players into the attack around him, not behind him - rather than being the target man. Certainly if Tade is meant to be the player getting the lay-off then I'd ditch this system now before we get to 2012 with only 10 points in the bag. And Hayes is struggling to get the cutting edge he had last year as defences wise up to his style.

I saw enough on Saturday - although the glasses were ruby-tinted and I'm talking 2nd 45 only - to think we have a decent midfield. But it's a work in progress.

You could tell they were trying to find feet, even if half the time it was a Dunf player! There's some quality there. Terry really needs a long term plan for the defence though. I rate Hogg (ok shoot me) but there's not the guile in our back 4 to do much else other than hoof it.

But as I said, that might actually be their pre-match instruction.

I don't think long ball should be deployed all the time as an out and out tactic from the first minute to the last however at times it is very effective.

We have brought in players to the midfield that can get the ball down and play the ball to feet but it will take time, how long I don't know however I don't think it can be deployed all the time especially in a league that allows very little time for a player on the ball so movement is so important and it needs to be done quickly, I don't think we are at that stage yet and will take a while and teams get used to countering a tactic the longer the game goes on. Therefore the use of the long ball to mix it up is quite possibly the best way to go but not all the time.

I hate it mostly especially when there are clear passing options available and we just hoof it which was evident a lot last season. Saying that we played this tactic a lot in the away 2v2 draw against Celtic and hoofed it to left wing where Richie won just about every ball played forward so it does work but circumstances and teams we play will dictate when it should be deployed.

In response to Dougal I don't think that TB was solely regarded as one of the best centre backs of his generation for only his left foot hoofs up field but yes it was one trait that he was known for and got him a reputation as the no nonsense defender who got the ball clear. However I don't think that the players who play under him now necessarily do it because what was good enough for him is good enough for them, if they do it it's because he wants them too. Tactics so far would tend to suggest that it is not what he likes on the whole.