St Mirren to vote against proposal to change league structure http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22063775 Well done Saints having the bottle to join RC and oppose these absurd proposals. Fans throughout Scotland already showing their relief common sense has been applied.

RiG - ICT has come from 2 football teams that have merged and look how much stronger we are now!

So what's wrong with some of the lower division teams merging to give a stronger team and more support?

Because they don't have to merge to move forward as Thistle, Caledonian (and Clach) apparently had to do so at that time.

I don't think we should be reducing the number of teams but I do think that we should look at restructuring the leagues and include a pyramid system.[/quote

Look at the ares of Fife as an example - it has 4 football teams, I know it will never happen but a merger of Dunfermline, Raith, East Fife, and Cowdenbeath would give a far stronger team a bigger support and 1 stadium to upkeep.

Dunfermline average attendance 3676 capacity 12558

Raith avarage attendance 1854 capacity

10104

East Fife average attendance 513 capacity 2000

Cowdenbeath average attendance 799 capacity 5268.

Information from http://stats.football365.co.uk/dom/SCO/D1/attend.html

 

 

That website also says that ICT's stadium has a capacity of 22199!

 

RiG - ICT has come from 2 football teams that have merged and look how much stronger we are now!

So what's wrong with some of the lower division teams merging to give a stronger team and more support?

Because they don't have to merge to move forward as Thistle, Caledonian (and Clach) apparently had to do so at that time.

I don't think we should be reducing the number of teams but I do think that we should look at restructuring the leagues and include a pyramid system.

Look at the ares of Fife as an example - it has 4 football teams, I know it will never happen but a merger of Dunfermline, Raith, East Fife, and Cowdenbeath would give a far stronger team a bigger support and 1 stadium to upkeep.

Dunfermline average attendance 3676 capacity 12558

Raith avarage attendance 1854 capacity

10104

East Fife average attendance 513 capacity 2000

Cowdenbeath average attendance 799 capacity 5268.

Information from http://stats.football365.co.uk/dom/SCO/D1/attend.html

 

 

dont let any fifers see this.

 

 

at the start i would have merged caledonian, thistle and ross county and built a new all purpose stadium at tore, and called the team Highland.

 

 

no flak please i got enough back then.

 

wonder if many on here would agree with your fife scenario being applied up here

 

RiG - ICT has come from 2 football teams that have merged and look how much stronger we are now!

So what's wrong with some of the lower division teams merging to give a stronger team and more support?

Because they don't have to merge to move forward as Thistle, Caledonian (and Clach) apparently had to do so at that time.

I don't think we should be reducing the number of teams but I do think that we should look at restructuring the leagues and include a pyramid system.

Look at the ares of Fife as an example - it has 4 football teams, I know it will never happen but a merger of Dunfermline, Raith, East Fife, and Cowdenbeath would give a far stronger team a bigger support and 1 stadium to upkeep.

Dunfermline average attendance 3676 capacity 12558

Raith avarage attendance 1854 capacity

10104

East Fife average attendance 513 capacity 2000

Cowdenbeath average attendance 799 capacity 5268.

Information from http://stats.football365.co.uk/dom/SCO/D1/attend.html

 

 

By the same token should we seek to merge the Dundee teams, the Glasgow teams and simply have games like Team Fife v Team Dundee, Team Highland v Team Edinburgh?

We could always completely ditch the rich history of our game and have franchises. Team Glasgow, Team Edinburgh, Team South, Team Fife, Team Tayside, Team Grampian and Team Highlands and Islands.

 

The franchises need not necessarily be based in the geographical locations associated with their names but wherever the wealthy owners choose to locate them. Beer, hotdogs and pretzels served to spectators at their seats and the future of soccer in Scatland is sorted.

We could always completely ditch the rich history of our game and have franchises. Team Glasgow, Team Edinburgh, Team South, Team Fife, Team Tayside, Team Grampian and Team Highlands and Islands.

 

The franchises need not necessarily be based in the geographical locations associated with their names but wherever the wealthy owners choose to locate them. Beer, hotdogs and pretzels served to spectators at their seats wherever they're standing and the future of soccer in Scatland is sorted.

 

It just needed one little tweak...otherwise I think you're onto something!

 

So you are saying that you wouldn't want to risk having to play such lowly teams as, for example this season, Morton, Partick Thistle, Falkirk and Livingstone, who are obviously so much lesser teams than ICT ?

Because each club would have different ideas on which to cherry pick and so a single proposal that got most of what was needed would have got part way there and made it easier to get the rest if it was really needed later.

 

And of course the difference in class and ability between SPL teams and the current SFL1 is so great that they no top 4 SFL1 team could ever push a bottom 4 SPL team to need a 3 goal comeback and extra time in a national cup semi-fin... oh wait.

 

But it keeps getting said that is what the fans want, but you are also saying you don't want to play the top 4 of the SFL.

So where do the extra 4 teams for the top league come from ?

Why is it abhorrent to have the possibility of playing the 12th to 16th top teams under 12-12 to 8-8-8, but brilliant to have the guarantee of playing those exact same teams under a 16 team top league ?

For what it's worth I agree that a 16/18 team top league with extra playoffs and possibly an extended League Cup that gives back the extra home games would be a goal to get towards. I also know it cannot be done overnight and to get there we need to show that it is the way. IMNSHO, the proposal as was gave that chance to start the move.

 

 

I am saying what is the point in paying SPL/top league/whatever it would be called prices for a season ticket when you have no idea of the opposition? I am a student based in the central belt. I attend many away games, but I can't afford to travel as far to go to all the home games, therefore, I pick the best ones (games v. County, Celtic etc). I would be less likely to bother coming back for a game against Falkirk for example (who we have a horrendous record against anyway!)

 

I understand that most clubs would have different ideas. However, if the whole 11-1 thing had been changed to 9-3 for ALL aspects, not just league structure as the St Mirren statement says, or well before all this if Aberdeen hadn't been so stupid, then the chances are things such as playoffs and financial redistribution WOULD get passed through.

 

As pointed out by cal234ey again, it doesn't matter whether the team 4th in the 1st division is better than the team 10th in the SPL/top league. They are not an SPL/top league club on merit: that is something they would gain through promotion, through consistency throughout the season.

 

IF the 16 team league were to ever come about (and that's a huge if), then obviously the top 4 of SFL1 would be the teams to fill it. Why would they not???? In a 16 team league they would be top-league teams. Clubs would know the teams they would play against that season and would be able to market their season tickets accordingly. The issue for me is not about the difference (if any) in the standard of teams between the divisions, it's that the first part of the season in the 12-12-18 structure seems to effectively being written off for the middle 8. What would be the point in building up say a 20 point lead over the team in 12th place, just to see it wiped out?

 

I agree that the 16/18 team league is an appealing idea, but as you say, there would need to be a lot of work on that idea to make up lost revenue, and to get clubs to vote for it. I think had they offered the changes of financial redistribution, playoffs, pyramid system, one league body, but keeping the current league set-up (with the view to the structure being changed in a few years if a better structure was devised) then they might have had success.

RiG - ICT has come from 2 football teams that have merged and look how much stronger we are now! So what's wrong with some of the lower division teams merging to give a stronger team and more support?

You are comparing apples and oranges ! Without opening up another merger debate, ICT was formed from two non-league teams who ultimately decided (or were told) a joint application to join the senior structure would be more likely to succeed. Lower division teams are already part of the senior structure so other than finance, what would be their motivation?

an interesting list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_club_mergers

 

Look at the ares of Fife as an example - it has 4 football teams, I know it will never happen but a merger of Dunfermline, Raith, East Fife, and Cowdenbeath would give a far stronger team a bigger support and 1 stadium to upkeep.

This is a touch arrogant is it not? What gives anyone the right to tell other teams to merge? It is something teams would have to decide for themselves, just like we did, and for whatever reasons they can put forward to their fans.

Not sure how East Fife and Cowdenbeath fit into the mix as I dont know a lot about each of their histories off the top of my head, but having a couple of friends who are Pars and Raith supporters, I know that telling either of them that their teams should merge is likely to be met with a swift kick to the chuckies! They have quite a rivalry, and both have a fairly distinguished history in both the top leagues and also the lower leagues .... Would you be happy for a St Mirren fan to tell us ICT and County should merge because we are both from the Highlands? or that we should have a three team merger including Elgin?

Would also like to know how you know that a merged team in fife would have a far bigger support? You assume that to be the case, but reality suggests that a percentage of fans of the pre-merger teams would not support the merger (we know this happens - from experience). If crowds were up at all, then based on the figures you posted, I would guess the increase would likely be negligible.

It may happen due to finances somewhere along the line - obviously Dunfermline are in deep trouble right now - but it is not something we should even consider forcing on lower league teams, many of whom are happy to remain small community based clubs.

 

 

Look at the ares of Fife as an example - it has 4 football teams, I know it will never happen but a merger of Dunfermline, Raith, East Fife, and Cowdenbeath would give a far stronger team a bigger support and 1 stadium to upkeep.

This is a touch arrogant is it not? What gives anyone the right to tell other teams to merge? It is something teams would have to decide for themselves, just like we did, and for whatever reasons they can put forward to their fans.

Not sure how East Fife and Cowdenbeath fit into the mix 

You could point to Kelty Hearts as local rivals for Cowdenbeath. By an accident of history Cowden are in the SFL and Kelty are in the juniors, yet they're both similar sized villages/towns.

Cowden are in West Fife and I suspect East Fife is as remote for them as Dingwall is for us.

 

In an ideal world all these clubs would exist as part of a pyramid but at a local level. It's unsustainable to have clubs like Cowden travelling midweek to Stranraer in the national league system.

For me the idea of the 8-8-8 split is farcical. The structure 12-12-18 is fine but why can't the 12 team leagues operate like the SPL does now in terms of games and split. Add in a play off for 11th in top 2 leagues and 2nd to 4th from league below and leaving the other voting points as is, I think this would have been voted through.

The reason that our merger worked is that there was a concrete benefit to it.  There is no benefit merging any other teams in Scotland, not really.  THe obvious candidates are Dundee and Dundee Utd but what would they get?  A mid-table SPL side who occasionally have a good cup run?  That's what Dundee Utd have now and Dundee have had in the past, no real benefits.

 

I liked Scotty's link, I've always thought we are the Sxcottish Sampdoria.  Expect to see us in the European Cup final around 2030 by their timetable.

Why don't we just call ourselves Caledonian FC ?

Mmm....scratching my head to think of an alternative name.

You didn't have that feckin problem in 1993 !

McGregor has now revealed why he voted against - apparently the gudgies are too stupid to understand the proposed league set-up and by extension, so was everyone else!

 

 

I was quite surprised when I read that as well.  Reconstruction and much needed re-distribution of finances were abandoned because members of staff / fans at a certain football club were 'confused'!!!  Most people from every other club understood what the set up would have been.  It's also strange that all 12 SPL Chairmen (including County and Midden) agreed to this new set up a few months ago when it was first publicly proposed by the SPL.  All 12 agreed on the structure / rules and went back to their clubs.  Then at the last minute, County were seemingly 'confused' about the set up and Midden wanted to change various parts of the voting structure. 

 

Judging by some of the comments in the press, most chairmen were not happy with 100% of what was on offer.  However, after months of planning and negotiating with  various compromises to suit the desire of various clubs, for Midden to come in at the last minute with new demands is ridiculous.  Some compromise was given but they wanted it all.  How can clubs go forward if various Chairmen agree to compromises but 1 club won't (and another club are confused?!).

 

The fans have said they don't want the SPL and the league structure in it's current format.  The re-distribution of money would have helped the SFL clubs like Raith Rovers and Greenock Morton.  Overall Scottish football would have been healthier.  Still with major problems and still not a 'perfect' league, but a heck of a lot better than what we've got now.  I can't understand how Midden would prefer the current situation!?  If they wanted various changes, they would have got at least some of it with the new structure.  Why would they then vote to get no changes whatsoever?!  I hope that they get relegated next season and after 22 games are adrift by a record number of points for the 12th team!

Mmm....scratching my head to think of an alternative name.

 

Teuchter United!

Next time you're in a taxi in Edinburgh, ask the driver if they'd support a merged Edinburgh club if that club could win the SPL. If we could get some of the bigger clubs from the north east of England into a north of Britain league it might work. Probably would be on a par with the Eredivisie.

What about a split in to two teams?? We could have Caledonian FC in the SPL and put Rossshire Thistle into the Third Division.

Although you are a master of debate IHE, you master baiting doesnt seem to be attracting anyone better luck on the next fishing expedition, 

 

Although you are a master of debate IHE, you master baiting doesnt seem to be attracting anyone better luck on the next fishing expedition, 

 

Not sure if intentional Scotty but two words in your post may well sum up IHE!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22194795

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22194795

The club formerly known as Rangers has feck all to do with this!

They didn't vote "to kick Rangers out" - they went bust!

 

Edited April 18, 201313 yr by Renegade

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22194795

Wish I hadn't clicked on that. 

Sort of off topic but who in their right minds really want that  new club that call themselves Rangers to walk straight into the SPL..      They have to earn that right and at this moment in time they are nowhere near attaining this.

Already they have been spoon fed by the media with cash and coverage despite their lowly status and now there is a ploy by some of their well heeled supporters in influential positions to blackmail other Football Clubs into fast tracking them in to a new league set up.

 

I am glad that the vote went against the first proposal, that split idea imo. would do nothing to bolster support by the fans, could have been detrimental to the honesty of the players in the game and farcical in it's outcome.

 

Plenty better alternatives have been put forward on this thread and probably on the forums of every other Club in Scottish football so surely any Committee could find a set up which would be fair to all Clubs on present merit without showing favouritism to the poor imitation of a once great Club before it became adulterated.

 

Leave the league as it stands next season, work on getting the right alternative, one that suits Fans, Players and Clubs, reach agreement  then instigate it. 'Till then enjoy it as much as we have this season.

The problem that needs to be solved here however is that the fand want a bigger league but the clubs don't as it gives them less games and less revenue especially the clubs who want 2 games against Celtic, and previously Rangers as big money spinners. Until that is resolved, there is absolutely no chance of a bigger leagie in my opinion. I also think fans missed a big opportunity this season in that there was a lot of talk of boycotts of games, not turning up to watch your team again if Rangers were allowed to stay in the SPL/Division 1 as the clubs wanted their money. However the clubs listened to their fans, and by and large the fans kicked the clubs in the teeth by not turning up in greater numbers. Had the fans done so, there would have been a much better chance of getting bigger leagues agreed.

I also think part of the problem is the increase in season tickets now sold. 20 years ago, it would have been nothing like the levels at all clubs today as more folk turned up on the day to watch and thiswas more affordable for them. Wioth the clubs relying so heavily on season ticket sales, I think that inflates the on the day price and is a barrier to some fans attending.