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Edited August 25, 201212 yr by Yngwie

I happen to agree with Butcher mainly because of his (Munro's) poor distribution skills, and I don't think we've ever replaced Darren Dods as someone to lead the backline. At the end of the day you have to ask youself who knows more about football and defense in particular: Terry Butcher - 500+ senior appearances as centre back including 77 for England, 3 world cup finals etc etc. or all the armchair critics who, frankly, seem to be looking at the past through rose-tinted spectacles.

Munro and Tokely - give it up they are gone. God what about Bobby Mann or even Mike Noble. We were crap on Saturday. We were as bad against Rangers last season, Rangers in the 5 nil game a few years ago. If you all like to talk history, how about 6 nil at Airdire. Guess what, in most of the games we had the players you crave.

We simply didn't press, couldn't pass and were normally 10-15 yards away from Billy McKay. We will play far better and at the end of the day I would rather be upset at a poor SPL performance against the champions than upset at a 1 all draw with Berwick!

I happen to agree with Butcher mainly because of his (Munro's) poor distribution skills, and I don't think we've ever replaced Darren Dods as someone to lead the backline. At the end of the day you have to ask youself who knows more about football and defense in particular: Terry Butcher - 500+ senior appearances as centre back including 77 for England, 3 world cup finals etc etc. or all the armchair critics who, frankly, seem to be looking at the past through rose-tinted spectacles.

To be quite honest, I think the amount of appearances Butcher (and Malpas's 800 plus for Dundee United) made in the careers is immaterial. You'd think the two of them would know something about coaching defenders, but that seems to be not the case at all. History has shown us as well, that great players usually make poor managers and vice versa and I don't think in this case, it is any different.

Munro's distribution (while being poor in previous seasons) had improved dramatically since "losing" the captaincy, but that is not the issue here. Not long before he was punted, Munro was quoted in the press as saying he "never wanted to leave". Who was he replaced with? Tom Aldred - a player who couldn't wait to leave. Butcher punted experienced and dedicated players for duds and loan signings and this practice may well be set to continue, and that surely can only be detrimental to the future of the club.

Edited August 27, 201212 yr by Renegade

to be fair some terrible defending at set pieces that cost us dearly this has to be addressed.

Our set pieces where awful and carry no threat whatsover corner kicks constanly over hit.

Positives to be taken

In open play I think you will find we where definetely not overun and created some good chances.

Meekings & Morrison both looked solid and certainly don't agee the two goals flattered us .

Special mention to the referee what a useless tool

Conned by Hooper more times than not includng the free kick leading to their third and why when Nick Ross is down and stays down he lets Celtic play on ?

Then butcher decides Munro actually isn't good enough

I don't think that's actually the case. Ability is only one of the factors taken into account when considering contract extensions.

I have reason to believe that ability made little to no part in his decision at all.

I thought this was a matchday thread about the Celtic game, not another rehash of how/ why Munro and Tokely (funny how Russel Duncan never gets a mention now) departed. We were really poor throughout most of the first half. It was clear that our central defence had never played opposition of the quality that they faced on Saturday. Warren maintained that he had never played in a televised game before so it shows the level they have come from and what they need to adapt to. I think that TB plays David Raven from the start because he is a better and faster option in an attacking sense than Meekings. He certainly was in the game at Hearts, which might cover his reasons for being what I could only see as being mildly unchuffed at being subbed. Meekings then comes on to defend a lead/ limit damage. To be fair, in most games this season that's not a bad way to operate. On Saturday, however he was up against wing backs who are both full internationals and he suffered for it. OK we got our two goals when Celtic had fallen into torpor, but we still got them. As a comparison, Celtic's squad is worth at least ten times the value of ours. Their income is in excess of fifty times ours if you include Champions League, which they are certain to qualify for now. In fact, I have heard it said that Wednesday's match against Helsingborgs will earn them more than we will earn in a season. One match! How do we compete with that? The fact that they are not better is illustration that ex-players sometimes don't make good managers, and we will see what happens to Celtic when they face one of the teams who are 5-6 times richer than them (say a Dortmund, or a Lyon or a Valencia - never mind Real, Barca or the Manchester clubs) They will find themselves in exactly the same position as ICT on Saturday.

There was no lack of application, effort or heart on Saturday, just a team steamrollered by an opposition they had only ever seen on telly, and the noise that reverberated round the ground to the near silence of the home support? That was the sound of money, nothing else.

I thought Celtic never got out of 3rd gear . They were never pressed, untill the last 10 minutes when they had all their reserves on. I think Celtic are playing much better this season than they have played for years. They are so very relaxed, they have a no fear attitude brought upon by the diapearance of Rangers. They are playing without totally without pressure knowing they will walk the league and fortune beckons in Europe..

Having said all that, I see no reason to believe we will not compete in this league , "there is only one Celtic".

We had no heart on Saturday. We were four nil down at one point and didn't seem to show any urgency. I thought the positives were Draper, Pepper and Esson. Of course people are going to mention Tokley, Munro and Duncan because at least they always showed heart.

We were appalling in defence. Having watched the highlights of the game on the BBC website (I was there too) King was pretty poor.

Given our recent luck with Butcher's signings for some of the boys on the pitch on Saturday the only consequence of losing that game is that they won't earn a move away with that performance. We never used to conceed four goals against the Old Firm at home.

I feel that McKay should not be playing up front by himself. He is a player who I admire because he does seem to care, you could see that at Tynecastle. Maybe we should be looking to play Sutherland up there with him or give Oswell a chance. Its clear Sutherland is not the next Johnny Hayes and I hope Butcher realizes this instead of consistently playing the young man in a position that doesnt suit him, all it will do is harm is confidence.

As I said on the other thread I think we should be looking to give the likes of Polworth, Laing and Cooper the chance to play against Arbroath. I also feel Pepper has merited a start.

I am starting to feel pretty disillusioned with the team. On Saturday it reminded me of the end of the Brewster days a bit. I'm sure I will be accused of being dramatic but at least I'm being honest. I will be furious if we lose against Arbroath. I am not underestimating them as I know they are a quality side with a manager I would gladly see at ICT but I feel a good cup run will give us something to be positive about. Let’s face it we haven't had much in the past year and a half.

^{So after an excellent comeback against Hearts last week we got a totally hopeless performance today. As has been mentioned already, the two late goals leave only a mis-leading scoreline that does not reflect the drubbing it was. Our weaknesses at the back, middle and front were exploited by a makeshift Celtic team, that may be able to draw on talented youngsters like Watt, but in reality should never have proved to be the obstacle we allowed them to be. Devoid of any inspiration and invention, especially in the final third. Butcher and Malpas look like they have a massive job ahead, just to keep us in the SPL}

After 1 bad game this is siad. I despair!.

I have reason to believe that ability made little to no part in his decision at all.

Give it a rest with all this "reason to believe" guff. If you know something, spit it out or don't bother posting as this adds nothing to the debate.

It wasn't that makeshift. Maybe not their usual team but I'd argue every single one of their players, except Twardzik, could be the first choice for their position. It's not some little reserve team. It's Lustig, Wanyama, McCourt and other internationals, million pound plus players and Anthony Watt - one of the best youth prospects out there.

Give it a rest with all this "reason to believe" guff. If you know something, spit it out or don't bother posting as this adds nothing to the debate.

I'm afraid that while I might hint at what I know (and that's a pretty big hint right there), in this case I have agreed not to go into it too much, but the story will probably come in the end and it IS relevant to the discussion. Whether you'd believe it though, no matter who said it or where came from, is another matter...

Edited August 27, 201212 yr by Renegade

Give it a rest with all this "reason to believe" guff. If you know something, spit it out or don't bother posting as this adds nothing to the debate.

I'm afraid that while I might hint at what I know (and that's a pretty big hint right there), in this case I have agreed not to go into it too much, but the story will probably come in the end and it IS relevant to the discussion. Whether you'd believe it though, no matter who said it or where came from, is another matter...

I know exactly what your talking about Renegade but as you say there's no point of going into as the happy clappers wont have a bad word said about anything Butcher does .

Give it a rest with all this "reason to believe" guff. If you know something, spit it out or don't bother posting as this adds nothing to the debate.

I'm afraid that while I might hint at what I know (and that's a pretty big hint right there), in this case I have agreed not to go into it too much, but the story will probably come in the end and it IS relevant to the discussion. Whether you'd believe it though, no matter who said it or where came from, is another matter...

I know exactly what your talking about Renegade but as you say there's no point of going into as the happy clappers wont have a bad word said about anything Butcher does .

Are you two the same person?

Whats all the fuss !

Aren`t we the leagues top scorers !!

Is there not going to be a player poll or have I missed something?

I thought that Raven did OK against Cellic but what I fail to understand is why he is being picked to start and then hooked after an hour for Meekings. Can anyone explain the logic ??

You thought wrong Johndo, he was ripped a new one, as were one or two others.

IHE wrote

"I thought that Raven did OK against Cellic but what I fail to understand is why he is being picked to start and then hooked after an hour for Meekings. Can anyone explain the logic ?? "

Let me explain - When a player is running out of puff late in the match or proving, in the game, to be letting his side down or maybe both .... then it is logical for the manager to sub him.

It is difficult for a manager, without his mystic meg ball, to know the above as football has an unknown factor - the other teams ability on the day!

Hope that helps!

A Very Happy Clapper!!

Is there not going to be a player poll or have I missed something?

Poll is now open.