Losing nigh on £1,000,000 in a single weekend 👏

The issues around the Concert Company must be a real concern for everyone linked with the football club.  As was pointed out above, the Club stated in its financial statement presented at last September's AGM, that its projections were reliant on income generated by the Concert Company.  Clearly that income stream  is not going to be available.  In addition, the news that the Concert Company is apparently unable to pay its creditors more than 67% of what they are owed has serious implications.  Whilst it may be legally a separate company to the Club, its 2 Directors are also Directors of the Club and much of the work done in the name of the Concert Company was done by ICT staff.  The reputational damage to the club will be significant and there will be financial implications to this.

The ICT Supporters Trust is keeping a close eye on developments and has issued a brief statement on our website and which I have also posted on the Supporters Trust forum on this website.  We will be having a meeting at the Club early next week when we will be raising our general concerns on this issue.

Many thanks to everyone for their thoughts and information posted on this thread.  It has been very helpful to us in developing our understanding of the situation.  Please keep discussion going and sharing information.  If there is information or particular questions you wish to share but don't want to do so on a public forum, you can contact the Trust at [email protected].

31 minutes ago, DoofersDad said:

its 2 Directors are also Directors of the Club and much of the work done in the name of the Concert Company was done by ICT staff.

Were these staff members who are employed by ICTFC (the football club) who were working for the concert venture for free (in their spare time) or were they also employed and paid by the concert company? If so how much was extracted to pay ICT staff in terms of salaries and expenses associated and what was the distinction between the 2 businesses. All sounds a bit murky and that the lines of distinction are very blurred. Wouldn't be very hard to siphon money out of the concert company as overheads & costs into preferred beneficiaries pockets before ending up without the finances to service debtors!!!

In no way am I suggesting any of the above has actually happened, just stating a point.

12 minutes ago, bdu98196 said:

Were these staff members who are employed by ICTFC (the football club) who were working for the concert venture for free (in their spare time) or were they also employed and paid by the concert company? If so how much was extracted to pay ICT staff in terms of salaries and expenses associated and what was the distinction between the 2 businesses. All sounds a bit murky and that the lines of distinction are very blurred. Wouldn't be very hard to siphon money out of the concert company as overheads & costs into preferred beneficiaries pockets before ending up without the finances to service debtors!!!

In no way am I suggesting any of the above has actually happened, just stating a point.

Did the club not close on the Monday after to give the staff a rest? 

I was at DD and there were youth players and staff working. Obviously I don't know who paid them. 

Yes the staff got a day off on the Monday after the concerts

If the staff were considered an external resource and as such invoiced by the club to cover costs then the club potentially will loose out as a creditor (depending on mark up of rates).

If the staff were working for free that's different. If that's outwith standard working time that's fine, if its during their working hours then if it wasn't sanctioned by the club then technically (depending on contract terms) that could be disciplinary offenses by club against individuals.

However, in the event the staff worked for free, sanctioned by the club to support the concert company then there are implications that both the club ICTFC & Concert Company are one and the same as they are using the same workforce while being paid by on entity to operate another.

Murky waters in there.

On 8/29/2022 at 9:46 AM, STFU said:

Feels like Keith Haggart might be the person getting thrown to the wolves here whilst the ICTFC Chairman and Concert Company Director, Ross Morrison remains in hiding and Scot Gardiner runs around kicking up as much ****, dust and confusion as he can so that people can't really see what's going on to cover his ass.

May I be the first to wish Keith all the best for the future.  I wonder if we might get someone without a Dundee or Rangers FC connection in to replace him?

Off to Brechin...

 

Sorry to see Keith departing the club.  Always very personable and helpful.

Vacancies now at the club.

https://ictfc.com/job-opportunities-at-inverness-caledonian-thistle-football-club

 

I met Keith a few times and was impressed by his drive and ambition to make things better. It is a shame if he has gone due to the Concert issues.

His family is still in Dundee so I hope he has made the move for personal reasons rather than being pushed or forced to jump. 

Edited September 6, 20223 yr by Robert

First time I actually met Keith was at the ‘Meet and Greet’ event recently for fans who had paid out monies to sponsor players over the Covid period, without any actual recognition from the club.   He was a genial host, friendly to all, players and fans, and made it a really good informal night.   I am sorry if it seems he has been made the fall guy in regard to the Concerts - there are many others who should accept responsibility and I wish Keith every success wherever he goes, hoping he is treated fairly in future.  I do hope he hasn’t left with any bad feelings for the ICT fans who appreciate his endeavours.  

I met Keith for the first time earlier this year when I came across for a funeral. Seemed like a decent enough guy and we just renewed our sponsorship and had a quick chat with him on email recently over that too. Not an easy role to perform, never has been, and judging by the job listing, getting harder or at least has more areas of focus!  Good luck to him. 

They are also advertising for an accounts assistant.  Does that mean Mavor is also leaving or do they think we need additional people to count all the money we don't have?

The Stadium used to be a happy place with long term employees - what’s happening now is very unsettling for fans and likely the remaining staff. 

57 minutes ago, lizi said:

The Stadium used to be a happy place with long term employees - what’s happening now is very unsettling for fans and likely the remaining staff. 

Yup certainly changed days going in now. 

On 9/2/2022 at 4:09 PM, bdu98196 said:

If the staff were considered an external resource and as such invoiced by the club to cover costs then the club potentially will loose out as a creditor (depending on mark up of rates).

If the staff were working for free that's different. If that's outwith standard working time that's fine, if its during their working hours then if it wasn't sanctioned by the club then technically (depending on contract terms) that could be disciplinary offenses by club against individuals.

However, in the event the staff worked for free, sanctioned by the club to support the concert company then there are implications that both the club ICTFC & Concert Company are one and the same as they are using the same workforce while being paid by on entity to operate another.

Murky waters in there.

Time of club staff was being diverted to putting on the concerts. It was taking them away from club business.  Make no mistake, as much as a big deal was made of the separate companies the two were intertwined.

Concert company now liquidated.

https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/inverness-caley-thistle-concert-company-goes-into-liquidatio-297159/

One of the directors resigned in September, but that won't protect him if the reported legal action comes to anything.

12 hours ago, STFU said:

Concert company now liquidated.

https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/inverness-caley-thistle-concert-company-goes-into-liquidatio-297159/

One of the directors resigned in September, but that won't protect him if the reported legal action comes to anything.

It is an embarrassment for the club and us supporters!

From what I’m hearing the number of creditors that are due money are considerable as are the combined overall costs.

I feel if ICT don’t try and honour these debts there could be even worse financial implications ahead. 

The longer this rolls on without resolvement no business or future investors would touch us with a barge pole. 

The club has been on mortal decline since the Scottish cup win. 

Part time football is definitely on the horizon and it might be the only saving grace from entering administration it’s that serious. 

Worrying times 

Dougal

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As has been said before by others, the directors would be acting in breach of their statutory duties if they settled, to the detriment of ICT, the debts of an unrelated company (it is legally unrelated, despite some connections). Doing so would also put us straight into administration, as opposed to the mere possibility that exists. 
 

SG has acknowledged that one local company the club deals with is unhappy with the club over, who knows if that is the full story though. In due course, the liquidator should file a report that lists the unpaid creditors and the amounts they were due, so we’ll get a better understanding of the extent to which the unpaid debts were with local businesses. 

11 hours ago, Yngwie said:

. In due course, the liquidator should file a report that lists the unpaid creditors and the amounts they were due, so we’ll get a better understanding of the extent to which the unpaid debts were with local businesses. 

I'd be more interested in how much was claimed and extracted as expenses or otherwise such as consultancy costs by those either directors or heavily associated with both organisations or groups of  individuals.

People and businesses on Facebook claiming that they were invoicing and being paid (in part) by the club in relation to the concerts.  Also, and this is undeniable fact, online ticket sales were through the clubs ticketing account and platform.

On the above basis, there is clear cross-trading and it is hard to argue that club and concert companies are unrelated.

As I said previously, Scot Gardiner intimated on the podcast that the club had been paid for services provided.  Further indication that the companies were related and/or offering favourable terms in their dealings.

Baffles me that anyone thinks this is defensible.

 

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, STFU said:

People and businesses on Facebook claiming that they were invoicing and being paid (in part) by the club in relation to the concerts.  Also, and this is undeniable fact, online ticket sales were through the clubs ticketing account and platform.

On the above basis, there is clear cross-trading and it is hard to argue that club and concert companies are unrelated.

As I said previously, Scot Gardiner intimated on the podcast that the club had been paid for services provided.  Further indication that the companies were related and/or offering favourable terms in their dealings.

Baffles me that anyone thinks this is defensible.

 

 

 

 

STFU you must remember that you are dealing with some of the biggest happy clappers in Scottish football. 
I admit all clubs have their fair share of happy clappers but ICT definitely have more than any others which is evidently clear on CTO. 
From  1994 there are still a large number of businesses who refuse to put a penny into ICT but do so to a club from a tiny village further north that they had absolutely no ties(zero nil nowt) too previously.

That alone is very worrying in my opinion. 

Therefore  my original point stands we can ill afford to lose future investment coming into the club any future investors will not look favourable on us due to the concert fiasco. 
 

Dougal



 

1 hour ago, STFU said:

People and businesses on Facebook claiming that they were invoicing and being paid (in part) by the club in relation to the concerts.  Also, and this is undeniable fact, online ticket sales were through the clubs ticketing account and platform.

On the above basis, there is clear cross-trading and it is hard to argue that club and concert companies are unrelated.

As I said previously, Scot Gardiner intimated on the podcast that the club had been paid for services provided.  Further indication that the companies were related and/or offering favourable terms in their dealings.

Baffles me that anyone thinks this is defensible.

Maybe it’s more the case that people are helpfully providing factual information, but you dismiss it because it doesn’t support the conclusion you want to reach?!

 

I definitely don't subscribe to the notion that football clubs can do no wrong so long as they appear to be acting in self interest 🤷‍♂️

It's also reasonable to question facts being presented by those who have a history of twisting the facts!

The only conclusion I want to reach is that our club is in safe hands.  Do you think it is?

The only way we could be in truly safe hands given our current predicament would be if we were owned by someone very rich, generous and possessing honourable intentions for ICT. I don’t know any of the Board or major shareholders but I’m pretty sure they would all jump at the chance to step aside and let someone else have a go. 
 

Are the current lot doing a good job? Mixed - clearly there are a lot of well documented problems and things that could/should have been done better.
 

On the plus side, we still exist, as a full time club, and have retained the youth setup. Any or all of those 3 core things could easily have gone since relegation, it’s clearly been a struggle to retain them, and it appears to be the case that directors have been putting their own cash in to maintain those things and pay the bills, something that they are not obliged to do.

Until I see evidence to the contrary, I am willing to believe that the people involved are doing their best for ICT under very difficult circumstances, but if there are people who could do better I’d love to see them step forward. 

 

 

Edited December 28, 20223 yr by Yngwie