THE MATCHDAY THREAD Discuss ICT & other games in this thread as they happen Inverness CT -V- St Mirren PREVIEW 31st March 2018 @ 3PM, Caledonian Stadium Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Facebook Go to the Chatroom Media Coverage   AUDIO COVERAGE BBC Sportsound BBC Sportsound [UK Only]   LIVE TEXT (ONLINE) Sporting Life BBC    VIDEO SPFL YouTube Channel ICT Official YouTube Channel   TEAM LINEUPS TO FOLLOW   Tweets by @ICTFC Tweets by @ICTFC

9 hours ago, Charles Bannerman said:

I'm.... I'm....I'm....I'm.... I'm....I'm....I'm.... inclined to agree that if British refereeing isn't considered great, the same might be said of that part which is Scotland. I.... I....I...I...I...I...I...really wasn't impressed by today's ref. 

 

Aw bu**er it.... I've already pressed the button twice to no effect although it just seems to have come up once!

Not unusual for you to repeat yourself and then make an added comment.

Unbeaten in 4 though...

 

 

What a game Ridgers had, he's proving to be an excellent keeper after a slow start.  The second penalty award was an absolute joke and justice was done with the save.  Really pleased that the heads didn't go down after the second goal and they battled back to get a deserved point. 

19 minutes ago, Kind of Blue said:

What a game Ridgers had, he's proving to be an excellent keeper after a slow start.  The second penalty award was an absolute joke and justice was done with the save.  Really pleased that the heads didn't go down after the second goal and they battled back to get a deserved point. 

I don't think the footage shows it very well, but from where I was in the North Stand it was a clear push in the back from Tremarco.  There was no way Tremarco was never going to get the ball so he gave a gentle nudge just as the guy was jumping.  Clear penalty.  I'd actually said "penalty" before the guy went down.

The problem is the lack of consistency.  Why give that but not the pull on vigurs in the second half?I appreciate that referees can only give what they see, but if the referee didn't see the pull on Vigurs then the Assistant referee was well placed to see it.  All the crucial decisions went against us.  It is rather ironic that our equaliser was direct from a free kick for a foul that not even Newlands could ignore.  This just moments after Newlands had turn down loud shouts for a penalty.  Had he given the penalty, we would probably have missed it!

Not sure what folk thought they saw at 2nd pen? Highlights seem pretty clear to me as they seemed at the time tbf. I was walking around to north stand facilities and saw it straight on from corner area. 

Looking back at the ref's performance, i just cannot fathom: 

1. The 2nd St Mirren penalty award

2. The free kick award that led to St Mirren's 2nd goal

3. Our lack of penalty award (especially Doran's claim ... and especially with their previous soft one ... sometimes ref's will "even it up")

Completely mystifying ... and sadly nowhere near the first time this season that we've had genuinely serious complaints at home.

Quote

 

I came away not sure of anything except my perceptions of the penalties given  was right.  Before the 2nd penalty   I said to the guy sitting behind me if he puts it in a similar place the goalkeeper will save it.

I thought the first half was a mess for us,  We were definitely second best and St Mirren seemed to be in control , our passing was hurried and long  and usually finding an opposition player.

The goalkeepers ( ours )  kicking was Pat Jennings like virtually the full length of the pitch and caused the Saints defence to back peddle.

St Mirren top of the league with twice as many points as us, and it showed. Together with a singing crowd  support  they could have gone into a bigger first half lead.

The second half we pulled our socks up, St Mirren scored from a free kick just outside the box, I am sure the St. Mirren supports would argue it was just inside, I thought at the time we were lucky it as outside.

A man on the far post would have been a good idea I thought.

Nobody expected the comeback, A Warren header from a corner made it 2 .I and our own free kick, similar to theirs made it 2 apiece. St Mirren who had been coasting and had gone into hibernation, suddenly woke up .

There followed some terrific  end to end play, the St Mirren fans true to the old concept " You only sin well you winning ", fell into silence and shock I feel. Towards the end one of our players ( I didn't notice who) , headed the ball over the Saints goalkeeper and for a split second I was sure we had scored , but the  custodian reached high above his head and saved.

It is always easy to criticise  the ref , but the ref didn't inspire any sort of confidence. Irrespective of the decisions he just did not look the part,  He seemed very unsure of himself,  Having said that we couldn't have a game without them.

 

 

 

 

 

Just like to add ref was of the standard we have got use too, absolute phish. Must be the clean fresh air up here they are not used to it

Just now, bigman said:

Just like to add ref was of the standard we have got use too, absolute phish. Must be the clean fresh air up here they are not used to it

His inconsistency was his downfall. He also was nowhere near up with play when he booked Doran for diving wben it was clearly a pen. 

2 hours ago, Laurence said:

I came away not sure of anything except my perceptions of the penalties given  was right.  Before the 2nd penalty   I said to the guy sitting behind me if he puts it in a similar place the goalkeeper will save it.

I thought the first half was a mess for us,  We were definitely second best and St Mirren seemed to be in control , our passing was hurried and long  and usually finding an opposition player.

The goalkeepers ( ours )  kicking was Pat Jennings like virtually the full length of the pitch and caused the Saints defence to back peddle.

St Mirren top of the league with twice as many points as us, and it showed. Together with a singing crowd  support  they could have gone into a bigger first half lead.

The second half we pulled our socks up, St Mirren scored from a free kick just outside the box, I am sure the St. Mirren supports would argue it was just inside, I thought at the time we were lucky it as outside.

A man on the far post would have been a good idea I thought.

Nobody expected the comeback, A Warren header from a corner made it 2 .I and our own free kick, similar to theirs made it 2 apiece. St Mirren who had been coasting and had gone into hibernation, suddenly woke up .

There followed some terrific  end to end play, the St Mirren fans true to the old concept " You only sin well you winning ", fell into silence and shock I feel. Towards the end one of our players ( I didn't notice who) , headed the ball over the Saints goalkeeper and for a split second I was sure we had scored , but the  custodian reached high above his head and saved.

It is always easy to criticise  the ref , but the ref didn't inspire any sort of confidence. Irrespective of the decisions he just did not look the part,  He seemed very unsure of himself,  Having said that we couldn't have a game without them.

 

 

 

 

 

Header you mention was by Daniel Mackay. 

Having just watched the highlights, they have confirmed what I thought at the time. Second St Mirren penalty was not a penalty and referee, in my opinion, saw the St Mirren player fall and guessed he was pushed. There seems to be a trend of referees guessing decisions these days, and not just at this level. I find that incredible as they cannot give a decision unless 100% sure. What would help is if refs would come out and say this after games but by not speaking, they just compound the poor decisions they have made. The foul that led to the second St Mirren goal was certainly never a foul as the player clearly dived ( I was right in line with this in the main stand and thought this at the time). Why a foul can be given for this, and a booking, when the tackle on Doran went unpunished is beyond me.

No doubt refs will complain that they cannot win but they need to understand that a lack of consistency in decision making harms their cause more than anything else.

A great game in the end. The best thing about refereeing performances like these is that they unite the North Stand against a common enemy, the crowd come alive and the team can feel the support willing them on. 

I still don't see the second penalty as anything more than cynical opportunism. But I have noticed that most teams in this division ( apart from Brechin ) have that level of professional cynicism built in. Defenders know just how much they will get away with, forwards go to ground easily, all part and parcel of why this is a hard league to get out of.

Calder had a great wee spell, put over a couple of great crosses and we really should have players attacking those.  Can't remember who put one cross over that must have only been 3 yards out and there was no one either in the the centre or back post. 

Ridgers penalty save was an important factor in us getting anything out of this game. 2-0 down at that point, to an unjust penalty at that, and I don't think we'd have come back. Having said that, St.Mirren could have been out of sight long before...turns out not all superheroes wear capes, but pretty sure Ridgers had the rest of the costume on under his day-glow kit.

Their second goal was a cracker, but I always felt we could get one back. We seemed to go more route 1, Oakley came into the game more when MacKay came on,  and we generally looked more threatening. 

Our first goal seemed deceptively simple.  Our equaliser even more so. I genuinely think if the game had another 10 minutes to go we'd have won it. 

We should take heart, although we were under the cosh, we came back and deservedly so. 

This is the sort of performance and fight we need from the off next season

 

Imagine thinking that Tremarco fouled that lanky streak of piss for the second "penalty"  Absolutely no chance was there a foul there at all.

I think Association Football to give it its proper name, is about the only major sport, at a professional  level ,  I know that is officiated the same as in the 19th century.

I know that we have the guy behind the goal in champions league matches, and some form of goal -line technology is in the English game, but basically at our level not much as changed

I would like to see a rule where referees have to consult the Assistant  and the fourth official;  and the penalties are not given unless the majority agree.  The linesman should have guts to say " ref now was no way penalty ", there seems to be some sort of code that Assistants have to follow, where they won't disagree  with refs.

With regard to diving the same procedure should follow. Where cameras are available they too should be consulted.

I know you can't have a watertight system, but referees should remember it is not about them. I am told the good referees  are not noticed.

Cheating is ruining the game, but so too  is bad refereeing.

By the way should this not be removed from above

     BridgeAndCastle said:

Go home Butcher, you doddery, bumbling, inept old English Hun tw%t.  It is disrespectful to arguably the best manager this club every had , and has an English man I take it personally too.

19 minutes ago, Laurence said:

I think Association Football to give it its proper name, is about the only major sport, at a professional  level ,  I know that is officiated the same as in the 19th century.

I know that we have the guy behind the goal in champions league matches, and some form of goal -line technology is in the English game, but basically at our level not much as changed

I would like to see a rule where referees have to consult the Assistant  and the fourth official;  and the penalties are not given unless the majority agree.  The linesman should have guts to say " ref now was no way penalty ", there seems to be some sort of code that Assistants have to follow, where they won't disagree  with refs.

With regard to diving the same procedure should follow. Where cameras are available they too should be consulted.

I know you can't have a watertight system, but referees should remember it is not about them. I am told the good referees  are not noticed.

Cheating is ruining the game, but so too  is bad refereeing.

By the way should this not be removed from above

     BridgeAndCastle said:

Go home Butcher, you doddery, bumbling, inept old English Hun tw%t.  It is disrespectful to arguably the best manager this club every had , and has an English man I take it personally too.

 

Its a global disease ... refs are s*** worldwide  with the odd exception. The best you can hope for is consistency (good or bad) so at least you know what to expect. Looking at the highlights here, it seems the ref was a total roaster !!! Will take the word of those who saw it in person, but a few of the decisions that made it into the highlights seemed baffling to say the least. 

In MLS they are going into their second season of testing of VAR (Video Assisted Refereeing) for FIFA under the leadership of former EPL referee Howard Webb. This explains it better than I can. 

 

I would say that on the whole the test seems to be working well. Its not over-used and they have a specific (named) VAR referee sitting up in the stand watching the monitors as shown on the video. The refs seem to come to a decision quickly and it has probably helped more than hindered ... however, the element of control still lies with the ref and if they are a roaster then VAR cant really help that ! 

 

 

VAR, more officials etc etc. Yes, the refereeing isn’t great at times but the players don’t help at all anymore. Constant diving, cheating, claiming, time wasting, feigning injury, screaming. How Lewis Morgan wasn’t booked on Saturday i’ll Never know. But no wonder the ref’s get conned. 

Its cheating the fans ultimately and that’s the worst part.

I'm not sure of the logic behind asking inept and inconsistent referees to review the decision of inept and inconsistent referees!!  IMO, The biggest problem is not that they do not know the rules and are missing incidents....it's that they aren't applying the rules and are occasionally swayed by external factors when it comes to blowing the whistle (or not).  Until you fix that....all the cameras and technology in the world aren't going to change a thing.

Agree the standard of refereeing is pretty appalling but let's not forget the players who think nothing of going to ground far to easily to gain an advantage. All teams I have seen this season have been guilty, some more than others.

So as much as the referee and linesman are pretty useless the players and managers do not help their cause one bit and TBH it's nearly every game there is a wrong decision given as a player falls to the floor theatrically  after being brushed on the shoulder.

 

3 hours ago, CaleyD said:

I'm not sure of the logic behind asking inept and inconsistent referees to review the decision of inept and inconsistent referees!!  IMO, The biggest problem is not that they do not know the rules and are missing incidents....it's that they aren't applying the rules and are occasionally swayed by external factors when it comes to blowing the whistle (or not).  Until you fix that....all the cameras and technology in the world aren't going to change a thing.

I hear you ... and agree to an extent .... The complete and utter roasters will always be that way and you will not sway those arrogant refs who think themselves so infallible that VAR will not assist them. It is also not available for every match incident (a good thing) .

However, after seeing it in action for more than a year, I would have to say its a valuable tool. The current format of only using it for certain game incidents is well balanced and does not delay the game by any significant amount. The VAR official is basically looking at the same screens the TV guys are and analysing it in real-time just like they do too. He sends info back to the main ref quickly to say he is reviewing and if the ref has any sense at all - and the ones that are not at the extreme end of the spectrum do seem to have that - then they listen and use technology to assist with their decision. Ultimately its the ref's decision and some choose to ignore the VAR input but after the game they have had pelters and in some cases been (unofficially) demoted to lesser games for future weeks ....    

It had long been a frustration for TFC fans that we had this huge screen at one end of the pitch and TFC's own operators of that screen streamed live action and instant replays to it but the refs never looked at it ... turned out that it was because not every stadium had a big screen so they were explicitly told by the league to turn away from the screen and not to let it influence their decision !!! At least now with VAR they have that facility and have also been told to use it where it exists and if its on the blink then just referee as it it was pre-VAR times. Was skeptical before it went in but overall you dont really notice it and it has helped. 

The question however is if it would help in Scotland? Are there enough cameras and angles at a game to make it viable.

 

 

I hate to see all this diving, holding etc.  It is against the laws of the game and it is cheating.  But football is a business and at the higher levels it is very big business indeed.  If players can get away with it I can understand their managers and the money men behind them actively encouraging it.  I particularly hate to see our own players do it, but in the environment that exists in the game today, one can hardly blame them.

The responsibility lies with the game's authorities and through them, the referees.   I appreciate that the referees have a very difficult job and sometimes, often even, it can be very difficult to say whether an incident is a penalty, a dive or neither.  There's not much you can do about that.  But there is a lot you can do when it is clearly a dive.  If it was a straight red card and a standard 6 match ban, players would soon stop trying to con the referees.  And there is absolutely no reason why a player should be holding another player's shirt, holding their arm or putting their arm round the body to hold the player back.  It happens all the time and it is obvious.  Again, strong sanctions could wipe that out almost overnight.  The rules are there - they simply need to be applied.

Edited April 3, 20187 yr by DoofersDad

I actually like the fact that referees (genuinely) won't spot every incident or get every decision right. IMO, it's the discussion and debate around these things which underpinned the community growth around the sport....before TV ruined it all.

It's the inconsistency that bothers me.  These are guys (certainly in the UK) who are paid very well....more than the majority of fans and more than many of the players they are officiating over.  The fact that some of them are being paid high 3 figure or 4 figure sums per game and are considered "part-time" is ridiculous.  At the upper level it should be a full-time profession and they should be brought together during the week to review games/decisions and then agree how situations are treated across the board.  The closest they come to that is when they're flown off abroad for a p1ss-up under the guise of conferences and professional development (and that's straight from the horses mouth).

36 minutes ago, CaleyD said:

It's the inconsistency that bothers me. 

This is the main thing for most I think and this is a global problem !

 

36 minutes ago, CaleyD said:

These are guys (certainly in the UK) who are paid very well....more than the majority of fans and more than many of the players they are officiating over.  The fact that some of them are being paid high 3 figure or 4 figure sums per game and are considered "part-time" is ridiculous.  At the upper level it should be a full-time profession and they should be brought together during the week to review games/decisions and then agree how situations are treated across the board.  The closest they come to that is when they're flown off abroad for a p1ss-up under the guise of conferences and professional development (and that's straight from the horses mouth).

The referees in MLS are moving towards full time. 4 or 5 years ago I think there were 4 full time, now this article from 2016 says 14. Its also an interesting read in regards to the errors and inconsistency thing. Hard to find payment info for anything past 2014 for MLS refs but they allegedly get around $800 fee per game and yearly salary (I assume for the full-timers) is in the region of $200,000 (source) ... interestingly, one of the most notorious refs in MLS (Baldomero Toledo) comments about how things used to be with refs only meeting up once or twice a year (basically for the aforementioned piss up !)