I was originally going to post the following statement in the "Interesting" thread but decided it needed a place of its own on the main board as I think it is quite important.

Its threads like the "Interesting" thread (and a few other current ones) that sometimes make me wonder why Donald and myself bother putting in the time, effort and money we do to run this site.

The original poster, whether by design or accident invites a barrage of negativity by saying everyone is quiet after a win, and true to form the poster is proved 100% correct, a trait that is repeated in thread after thread after thread. And when we cant abuse <insert name of player or club official here> we get down to abusing our fellow supporters, site posters, or a particular favourite of many .... the mods and admin who volunteer their time to try and make sure it is a pleasurable place for fans of ICT to congregate and discuss things.

I have had some low points on the site a few times over the 15 years since I started it, but right now, I think it has reached bottom and I can honestly say that personally, I now take ZERO pleasure in reading this board and dealing with all the petty squabbles and back-biting that goes on. It is no longer a fun venture to run, it is a chore. For most of this season, once I have updated various report/stats/league-table pages on a Saturday, I tend to bugger off for the rest of the weekend secure in the knowledge that by Monday there will be some form of manufactured ****storm going on. For the most part, that Monday morning firefight has been something that has been way too easy to predict!!!

This situation, where some so-called fans of the club are showing utter contempt not only for the club and the team, but also for their fellow fans, and (in some cases) those who provide (or help to run) this free service where they can vent their spleen, is not a situation that can continue. That is not what this site is about. This is not why I started it, and it is not something I am willing to be a part of if it continues down this negative, petty and abusive road.

I am not saying we all have to be happy clappers, blissfully toe the party line and swallow all the BS that we get fed from time to time. I am not saying we cannot disagree with each other or the club in posts. I am not saying we cant highlight things that are wrong or be negative when there are negative things going on. thats what a forum is all about ... its a place to discuss things like adults, to put your point across or raise awareness of your concerns and to show the club that you will be heard when they do things you dont like or when results dont go our way. However, being constantly petty, abusive and negative dilutes any impact, influence, or relevance that this forum may once have had, or may have again in the future. Right now it is (quite correctly) seen as a joke or an irritation to many !

If you look back on both mine and Donald's posts of the last couple of years you will see that we have both praised the club when we thought they got it right but also been highly critical when we thought they got it wrong. I have agreed with many of you, I have disagreed with many of you and I have resembled both remarks with many of you too. However, in most cases, I have done so in the context of a discussion rather than being abusive. As far as I am concerned, that is the way it should be. Everyone should have the right to express their opinion, and everyone should be allowed to do so without being abused just because someone else disagrees. Contrary to popular belief, the moderation team will not delete a post just because it doesnt match our own opinion. One of the major reasons for that is that we don't all have the same opinions !! We quite deliberately chose a moderation team with diverse opinions and we think that has been shown to be the case over the last few seasons. Regardless of any issues we have with the running of the club, we are also usually first in the queue to offer our help where and when we can, or to browbeat first Mike and now Darren about things we can try and do, advertise, or get the club to do to benefit the fans as well as themselves ... thats part of being a fan and that desire has not diminished in me despite the miles (or my TFC season ticket).

However, if there is one thing that annoys me more than anything else on this board, and it is something that has been on the increase over the last 12 months, it is the type of reply that frequently comes after a post where someone expressed an opinion in polite and normal language, a response that calls them names that need to be asterisked or calls them stupid or basically denegrates or abuses them in some fashion. That is not acceptable. Depending on the veracity of the abuse it is somewhere between disrespectful and bullying and the bottom line is that if that is how you think you can behave, or want to behave, then quite simply we do not want you on this site, not now, not in the future, not ever. We are not telling you how to behave, that is entirely up to you, we are simply telling you what is and is not acceptable on this forum and reminding you that the consequences of inappropriate behaviour are wholly your fault.

Ok, now that I have got my feelings on the current situation out in the open for all to see, it is time to talk about a solution. I will be honest and say I do not know what it is in its entirety, I wish I did.

I know we could go to one extreme or the other with moderation and either over or under moderate ... in fact we continue to get both accusations thrown in our face on a regular basis right now. However, I know from experience that neither of these approaches will work so I have binned both of those ideas.

For that reason, I am therefore putting the onus on the site users themselves. Myself and Donald might pay the bills, and the moderators might volunteer to help run the site, but everyone on the site has a stake in its continued existence. My number one requirement is that the unsolicited and unwarranted abuse has to stop and we get back to being a discussion forum rather than a board where people feel they cant express an opinion without being bullied or abused for stating it. As I said above, it is fine to disagree or post an alternative viewpoint, but that should be done with at least a degree of civility. If we cant do that, then quite simply this forum may cease to exist in its current form, its as simple as that.

I have discussed my current feelings with the moderators and with Donald and we have had - and continue to have - a full and frank discussion on the matter. The bottom line is that we are prepared to look at how this forum is run and to make changes to our rules to accomodate any realistic and sensible suggestions from the userbase (for example: tightening up abuse penalties and perhaps relaxing other rules). We will also try once again to make the moderation and rule system more transparent and consistent so that it is clear to all what is and is not acceptable. However, it cannot and will not be a one-way street. Site users - assuming they want to remain members of this site - will have to play by whatever "golden rules" are finalised or they will face exclusion from the site regardless of who they are or how long they have been a member.

As I said above, I am willing to listen to sensible and realistic suggestions but I just want to make it clear that this thread is not going to be allowed to turn into a bitch-fest about how you got a warning for this or that or how you dont agree with certain things. If you got a warning and want to ask about it or have a problem with something then we have a process for dealing with complaints and you should send a message through the contact form in the site menu. Those kinds of posts will be deleted from this thread.

I want this thread to be for constructive comments and realistic suggestions. If there is some criticism mixed in and it is in the context of a reply with something constructive then that is fine. However, please be pre-warned that this posting is deadly serious and as melodramatic as it may sound, the future direction and existence of the site is on the table so if I feel that any poster is trying to "take the piss" on a subject that I feel is extrmely important I will have no hesitation in excluding them from the thread.

so now that I have said my piece and given out the guidelines for this thread, let the fun begin !!!

temporary bans, i.e. 1-5 days are also usually excellent detterents of scallywags

Totally agree - Most peeple come back anew / afresh / subdued / compliant after a ban. And things are looking up when birddog becomes a self acclaimed ersehole.

Ersehole - another lubbly word.

I've always known I'm an erse Johndo, it's just a pitty I can't speak gaelic then I could say I wasn't trying to bypass the sweary filter.

Edited November 18, 200916 yr by Birdog2

I've only joined the forum fairly recently and from what I'm reading here it seems my joining has coincided with a deterioration of the site. I hope this has more to do with the fortunes of our beloved team than my contributions to the site.

Being new and not having experienced the site in "the good old days" I have to say I am rather surprised by the disillusionment of the mods because I think the forum is really pretty good. Of course there are some erses but the common sense, insight, enthusiasm and wit of the majority more than make up for that IMO.

However, I respect what the mods are saying and support any efforts to get rid of those posts that just make you want to say "fer fecks sake". As others have said, respect is the key thing here. But let's not use the notion of respect to sterilise the banter. Lets face it, there are a handful of contributors who seem to delight in making statements critical of the club or players or fellow contributers which are so negative and without foundation that it is hard to believe they are expressing a genuine opinion. IMO these folk are fair game for a bit of light hearted ridicule. I'm sure these folk don't feel bullied by this, instead they will get a wee thrill from having provoked a response. Such exchanges can actually be quite entertaining but the problem is that some folk take the jokers seriously, are frustrated by the lack of objectivity and respond in an abusive way. What should be entertaining becomes unpleasant.

The challenge is getting balance right and it is not a task I envy the mods. How do you maintain the mutual respect whilst maintaining that cutting edge and gentle humour that makes people want to read the posts? There have been a few good ideas posted and I sense a generally firmer line against the few will be supported by the many and will make what is already a good forum even better.

temporary bans, i.e. 1-5 days are also usually excellent detterents of scallywags

Curious about the username but, that aside, what your saying is what we dont want. We want people to be responsible for their posts. We want people to realise that there is a variance in viewpoints, ages, colour, creed, etc. We want people to respect each other and each others views.

I more than most I have probably ruffled a few feathers and taken a stance that may be viewed as an "alternative" view and that has often been an unpopular aproach. After all what do you expect? My username is not "HappyClapper" or "123Agree", I am an alternative, I am a devil's advocate, I am a Renegade.

What I've always tried to do, is not come on fiercely with only one view on certain things, been open to other's viewpoints (I've often changed my view when seeing other's viewpoints) and not gone on witchhunts to increase my own self pleasure. Sadly in recent months to the last year or so, the latter seems to be on the up. I can't count the number of times I've had the brunt of the witch hunt for the ultimate crime of disagreeing with such and such a point. It usually starts with me posting my view, one regular anti-Renegade poster coming on and unsurprisingly disagrees, and then on come the rest of the cheerleaders with non-comments to the first disagreer like "100% agree!" or "Renegade you're an idiot!" and no doubt a few smileys just for good measure. I must be the most hated poster on the site these days, it's become hilarious.

On another note there's a couple of types of posters that have sprung up over the last couple of years. One that I have noticed kow is that there's one or two regular posters (who will remain anonymous), who do nothing but come on here but to cause trouble. You can often spot them. They seldomly have any individual views of their own other down negative ones and belittleing others one, usually only posting a line or so at the most. They're also the first to point out other's mistakes (such as the awful crime of a minor spelling mistake) and start a hate group against a poster they not like. They're also ultra-pedantic and will often act all incident when any attacks are made on them (some also like to suck up to the mods when this happens or even "admit their mistake" when a mods points out their mistake to them). Just ban these morons. They are not to any benefit to this site or other posters on here.

Another lot are these often school age posters who just seem unable to post in normal manner. I have no problem with whatever a certain posters age is as long as they can come across maturely and respectively. There seem to be some though that come on pretty regularly posting usually rather short lines of nonsensical nuggets of nothing, usually with a few smileys and exclamation marks thrown in for good measure. I'm not calling for this lot to be banned, just told to post in a normal and mature manner, cause the way some of this lot goes on unreadable posting mararthons IMO just makes the whole place look unprofessional.

That's my view, though on the whole I would say I have no problem with most of the posters on this site (even the ones who disagree :D ), but there are a few groups that need to be dealt with to make this site a more enjoyable and informative place.

Edited November 18, 200916 yr by Renegade

I reckon you rid the ointment of the flies....and continue to do so till you have the forum you want! Do you just ban by email addy or can you ban an IP Addy?

anonymity + an audience = idiocy

I forget where thats lifted from but it rings true on this site.

Sadly its what to be expected on most forums, it gives people the chance to say what they want knowing there will be no ramifications.

The fans i know like myself who read the site but dont post regularly, dont tend to do so because of the polar views that are expressed without any thought (we lose = butcher out). I think these views have risen recently, perhaps as said due to the influx of younger posters.

I think its a sad situation but if its becoming a chore to run the forum then maybe change is needed.

I would suggest:

No/limited posting rights for under 18's (make sure they can still read the forum)

temporary bans (work like a dream on other sites)

The ability for individuals to instantly block other users

Good luck fellows

hotcop

If you take a peek at my avatar, you will see that I am only to familiar with the big brother, censor, style. I cannot access Faceb, Twitter, Picassa, Blogspot etc. It is not a great road to go down.

I believe that this forum should cease to be anonymous. I think that would help the forum in terms of virtual bullies, liability, personal attacks, et al.

Anyway that could realistically be done?

On the Japanese version of Facebook, called Mixi, membership is by invitation only. That may work?

Ideas requiring proof of age, identity etc are very impractical unfortunately.

Invitation only? I suppose that could be achieved by creating an invitation only forum that only the "best" posters can access. It has its merits, but there are obvious downsides of creating a two-tier site, alienating those not selected to join.

The ability for individuals to instantly block other users

personally i think that idea could work, seperate the chaff from the decent posts in one click, if enough people block certain users they will get the message

How about some of the guy's who don't like being moderated so closely picking up the "Football mad" site again? ICT used to have one but it was very underused,due in the main i feel to the sucess of CTO. Maybe if one or two were prepared to take the time it would give an alternative platform to here which has a "semi official" site feel to it and they can be their own judges of whats acceptable.

footy mad

Edited November 19, 200916 yr by Heilandee

I don't think an under-18 ban should be imposed at all. As long as they're not being abusive (and let's face it, that's nothing to do with age), that's fine. I can remember one certain teen lady here was told to not complain, when she quite rightly responded that she was being supportive of Brewster for months but only got attacked for it. And yet, without her making any (that I can remember) derogatory comments, she should be banned? Definitely no age barrier.

And, what do you mean by respect? I certainly get offended by the Islamophobia spoken about by certain members on here. Should that be banned? If not, should anti-Semitism, homophobia, anti-black be ok too?

I can't believe anyone hates Renegade. I disagree with about 90% of his posts but certainly enjoy reading them probably more than anyone else's.

How about some of the guy's who don't like being moderated so closely picking up the "Football mad" site again? ICT used to have one but it was very underused,due in the main i feel to the sucess of CTO. Maybe if one or two were prepared to take the time it would give an alternative platform to here which has a "semi official" site feel to it and they can be their own judges of whats acceptable.

footy mad

along the same lines but maybe this site could have a seperate part to the forum which could be self moderated but could have a disclaimer to say that posting is at scrutiny/mercy of other posters and responsibility should be the posters as things such as libelous posts may be prosecuted and shall not be moderated by the sites owners?

dont think a separate section would work, as some people simply take great pleasure in being offensive sitting behind a computer screen.

A subtle change would be to add members joining date underneath their post count. Wouldnt do a huge deal but it would make it easier to i.d. obvious wind up merchants. When ignored, tools usually die down

Most football forums are full of ill-informed idiots arguing about things they barely understand and find impossible to articulate. Would we have it any other way? All forums have these debates, issues with 'schoolkid' posters, problems with the mods. To my mind it's part and parcel of a forum.

No/limited posting rights for under 18's (make sure they can still read the forum)

From what I can see, I got chunk of the, shall we say, less bright posters, are over 18.

Most football forums are full of ill-informed idiots arguing about things they barely understand and find impossible to articulate. Would we have it any other way? All forums have these debates, issues with 'schoolkid' posters, problems with the mods. To my mind it's part and parcel of a forum.

agree with you to the most part but it isnt you dealing with the backlash. Perhaps it's a reflection on our fanbase. Quite a quiet passive bunch, famous 'family friendly' club. Thus the forum perhaps has some slightly sensitive members. just a thought

I feel that any exclusion of a poster from the foum based on age is ridiculous. Unless they are abusive and / or spam the forum then there is no reason not to allow them on the site. As ICTChris says every forum has their idiots. CTO isn't any different.

I'll ask again as no one has really answered the question - apart from suggesting banning a large core of our fanbase - but what would you want to see on CTO to make it a better site/ forum? It is the users of a site that make it what it is so what do you want to see more / less of?

Personally I think we need more user input into the site. A while ago Scotty ran a recruitment drive to get more folk to help out with articles for the site but I can count on one hand the number of reports that these folk have done. It's been a very disappointing return based on the initial interest shown.

Edited November 19, 200916 yr by RiG
Unable to spell simple words.

I just read the 'Interesting' thread and, aside from a possible prosecution under the Trades Descriptions Act, I don't see anything wrong with it. A couple of posters had different opinions from other posters and there was a bit of discussion/debate/arguing about it. That's what the forum is about. There was no personal abuse of anyone and no breach of any forum rules that I could see. Perhaps we are all being too sensitive?

I know it's probably not allowed but you could mentio the website to get in more users. Like CaleyD could give it a mention at the home games before KO or HT.

No/limited posting rights for under 18's (make sure they can still read the forum)

From what I can see, I got chunk of the, shall we say, less bright posters, are over 18.

Eh.. forgive me for being older.. but what does this mean? what a brightness got to do with being a fan?

Anyway, since we have been struggling in the SPL, IE last two seasons and also this season it looks to me that most of the really negative posts are from younger forum members, impatient/impetous younger fans post what they feel and dont look at the bigger picture.

The fans who have also seen the rise of ICT though the leagues to the SPL have more understanding of our place in football and lets face it we are a wee team.

I get the feeling that this topic has aired a lot of feelings and things will quieten down for a spell untill.....

On the Japanese version of Facebook, called Mixi, membership is by invitation only. That may work?

Think that's an excellent idea as long as I would get an invite

Demonoid (downloading site) work in a similar way

Most football forums are full of ill-informed idiots arguing about things they barely understand and find impossible to articulate. Would we have it any other way? All forums have these debates, issues with 'schoolkid' posters, problems with the mods. To my mind it's part and parcel of a forum.

I can certainly see where Scotty/Caley D are coming from on this though... where's the reward for them taking the time to run the site only to be abused for the way it's run or have to deal with nimrods going onto P&B after they're banned calling them all sorts. I wouldn't, in fact, that's why I turned down the oppertunity to be a moderator because it's just too much hassle!

I've been posting here for 6/7 years, love it, especially living in Glasgow where I have limited folk to discuss ICT related topics. I can't afford to make as many games anymore (grown up resposiblities and all that) so this is one of the few links I have to my claims of being an ICT supporter. Scotty/Caley D I hope you can keep the forum going because I would be truely gutted if it wasn't here anymore because of a few idiots that don't realise the work that goes in behind the scenes.. and that not everything deserves to be handed to them on a plate.

Helindee has it spot on though, I think the majority of posts are negative at the moment because a lot of the fans might not have witnessed the work the club/fans/playes put in to making us an SPL club (until recently). Now we're not living up to their expectations all they can do is rant & argue

Ok, I haven't read every single response on this thread but here's my view on matters (for what it is worth!)

The site (forum content) has no doubt gone severely downlhill over the past few years and it is far from an enjoyable place to be compared to what it used to be like.

I don't think limiting people to a few posts when they first register is a good idea, i think it'd take new people too long to feel a part of things. My first few posts were mostly humour based and I got into chats with a few folk straight away. If you cannot reply you cannot really be a part of things.

As for getting younger posters to use a seperate forum i feel this too is not a good idea. We didn't need to do this in the past so there is no need we should do now. Besides I'm neither an old duffer (yet) or 'yoof' so where does this leave folk like me?

I feel the answer is pretty simple yet will certainly p1ss a few people off.

In short - just ban the @rseh0les.

There are too many people on this site who think it is acceptable to give the mods lots of work and throw abuse about wherever they want. How, why and when this attitude developed does not matter. If someone does not agree with you it does not mean you start dishing out personal abuse - try that in a pub and see what happens.

I think a system should be put in place along the lines off:

- You get one warning

- after this you get banned for a month

- after this if you still havent learned your lesson you get banned for 3 months

- if your still being an erse then you are banned for life.

No appeals process or anything - there is a perfectly good moderation team here who are not heavy handed.

Too many people add nothing positive to this site merely take away from it and leave a bad atmosphere.

Sadly if the site stays the way it is and Scotty decides it's coming offline then the way things currently are I wouldn't really be too bothered and that is a very sad state of affairs.

Scotty and Don - you have both put far too much time and effort into this site over the years to let a small group of idiots spoil it for the majority. Stand up for yourselves and get hard with folk, this shouldn't be a depressing chore for you.

This may seem harsh but sometimes you have to cut out a cancer to save the rest.

To take the apology thread by DalneighCaley a down a different angle, I think that this thread is starting to have the desired effect. People are starting to understand the views of others a little better.

I have no idea of what led to the apology, it was obviously out of order, but in keeping with the subject matter of both threads I was wondering whether there would be any chance of loosening the ban on talk about club employees and past employees? I am not wanting to be able to have flamefests started but if someone at the club finds themselves in the news for some reason then I feel that reasonable discussion should be allowed. Examples which spring to mind are Ritchie Hart's conviction, Ross Tokely's indiscretions, I am sure there will be more especially as the trial date for a former player is set for this month.

I would like to put this old v young argument to bed. As I said earlier, we don't have any more trouble from younger posters than we do from older ones. The issues that arise with each group are different and they may get handled differently, but in terms of volume of "incidents" we have a fairly even spread. On that basis I don't see any need for age related sanctions/limitations or the like.

I was 17 when CTO first appeared on the scene (I originally posted as BigD) and I was probably a bigger pain in the erse than any of the younger posters we have on the forum today. Why? Because like the younger guys today I thought it was great that I had somewhere I could go an post as much as I liked in whatever manner I liked...it wasn't "real world" so what did it matter if I called a few people names or wound people up?

I had more than my share of run ins with Scotty and i've probably spent more time banned from CTO than any other user on the site. How does that person end up being me, here today trying to tackle the exact same problems I was creating back then? It happens because instead of lowering themselves to my level, the users back then took the time to show a young guy with a shared interest in ICT the error of my ways. This is perhaps why I am a bit more tolerant when dealing with the younger users and am of the opinion that the older ones should know better.

We have other users like that on the site today, ones who take the time to have a word with someone who seems to be falling foul of the rules on a regular basis. Unfortunately we also have users who seem intent on leading younger users astray or using them to do their dirty work.

Some people think we're stupid, that we don't know what's going on. We generally have a good handle on what's happening, but perhaps we are a little stupid for allowing some of it to manifest itself on the site instead of nipping it in the bud before it starts. The problem is, if we act before something is in the public eye then we get the old accusations of being heavy handed, censorship etc etc.

Public floggings and (s)hit lists are not my favoured way to go.....we're trying to stop the witch hunts, not create more.

From reading the input provided so far I am liking the sound of replacing the rules (certainly ones pertaining to what/how people should or should not post) with a Code of Conduct. That coupled with a 3 strikes and your out....3 outs and your not coming back approach to dealing with any incidents could provide a much easier to understand system which also reduces the burden on moderators and allows them to get back to enjoying the site in the same way as the rest of the users.

There's not much we can do about the negativity, as has been stated, this is something that reflects the current mood of the fans in relation to the club/team. What we can and will do though is stamp out the abuse...be that abusing each other, stadium staff, players, manager or whatever. There's no need for it and criticism can be passed without the need for abuse.

Besides our (CTO's) interaction with fans on a daily basis we also petition the club and other parties about things that can be done to improve the whole setup. The more time we have to spend on dealing with crap on here, the less time we have to work on trying to get things like online highlights or improve the matchday tweeting, or pressing for online fan commentary. Boardroom Banter has slipped, partly because of lack of time and drive on our part....match previews and reports are becoming more sporadic because we don't have the time to do them all ourselves and those who volunteered haven't delivered. We're struggling to get the stats up to date, photo galleries have all but stopped this season, blogging which had started to pick up has stalled. Those who were assisting with the various prediciton leagues have now had to take over most if not all the work themselves because we're dealing with idiots or simply don't have any inclination to sign on to the forum because we know there's going to be another chit storm to deal with. So it's not just the forum itself that's suffering, there's wider implications which have to be considered also.

Their comes a time when fans/site users have to change their mindset. For years now it's been take take take, but those willing to give are burning out or finding themselves stretched too far. It's time for others to step up to the plate, to realise that their has to be a bit of give and whilst not everyone can write a report or be a moderator or whatever, they can make changes in how they interact with the site/forum/other users/fans which reduce the burden.

We'll play our part and do as much as we can, but you all have to do your bit as well.

I more than most I have probably ruffled a few feathers and taken a stance that may be viewed as an "alternative" view and that has often been an unpopular aproach. After all what do you expect? My username is not "HappyClapper" or "123Agree", I am an alternative, I am a devil's advocate, I am a Renegade.

What I've always tried to do, is not come on fiercely with only one view on certain things, been open to other's viewpoints (I've often changed my view when seeing other's viewpoints) and not gone on witchhunts to increase my own self pleasure. Sadly in recent months to the last year or so, the latter seems to be on the up. I can't count the number of times I've had the brunt of the witch hunt for the ultimate crime of disagreeing with such and such a point. It usually starts with me posting my view, one regular anti-Renegade poster coming on and unsurprisingly disagrees, and then on come the rest of the cheerleaders with non-comments to the first disagreer like "100% agree!" or "Renegade you're an idiot!" and no doubt a few smileys just for good measure. I must be the most hated poster on the site these days, it's become hilarious.

I wouldnt say you have ruffled feathers Renegade, however I would agree that you have been the target of a good deal of abuse aimed squarely at you by certain other posters regardless of what you post and to be honest, at times I do admire your restraint as you have rarely if ever complained or stooped to the same level. It is this kind of abuse that we are sick and tired of and will get rid of one way or another. It doesnt matter if I (or anyone else) agree with your posts/opinions or not (most of the time I dont ) you are articulating them in a normal manner so there is no need or justification for the abuse that is posted in response.

On another note there's a couple of types of posters that have sprung up over the last couple of years. One that I have noticed kow is that there's one or two regular posters (who will remain anonymous), who do nothing but come on here but to cause trouble. You can often spot them. They seldomly have any individual views of their own other down negative ones and belittleing others one, usually only posting a line or so at the most. They're also the first to point out other's mistakes (such as the awful crime of a minor spelling mistake) and start a hate group against a poster they not like. They're also ultra-pedantic and will often act all incident when any attacks are made on them (some also like to suck up to the mods when this happens or even "admit their mistake" when a mods points out their mistake to them). Just ban these morons. They are not to any benefit to this site or other posters on here.

I am aware of several people who fit into the profile you have just described and again, it is evident that they are missing from this thread, presumably as I mentioned posts would be deleted or topic bans issued, so they know they cant get their jollies on here.

I am not one to hold a grudge and there are many people on here who I have had ding-dong battles with over email or PM in the past but if you are participating in the forum and therefore adding value to it, any dispute is water under the bridge once it is resolved as far as i am concerned. However, as you described, if all someone wants to do is stir the pot, cause trouble or add absolutely nothing to the site other than abuse or a few sarcastic smilies, you will get short shrift on your way out.

I reckon you rid the ointment of the flies....and continue to do so till you have the forum you want! Do you just ban by email addy or can you ban an IP Addy?

We have several tools in our arsenal including IP bans (both individual ips and ranges of IPs), username bans, email bans (individual and domain wide), proxy server bans etc.

With respect to actually banning folk, one of the things I do take heart from in this thread is that although I freely admit (and have always admitted) that we as mods/admin do not always get it right, their does seem to be a greater willingness of some posters to accept that there are problem posters since I started this thread and that it is not always the mods who are the bad bar stewards.

If the normal, decent posters on this site can and will work with the mods to weed out the problem posters then it will be a far better site for us all. Now I dont mean we all turn on the problem posters and abuse them, that would go against everything I have said up to now, however, one way that normal posters can help make it better is to try not to jump on the bandwagon that frequently develops when someone is warned or excluded. I have seen it all too often, we give someone a warning and the next thing we know there are snide comments about the mods being on power trips or personal comments about size, shape or attitude and then one by one others join in and we have a rapidly developing "us and them" situation. That puts more pressure on everyone, posters and mods alike, and it is then when posts that might be innocuous or "banter" on other days get misinterpreted or nitpicked as offensive, abusive or otherwise undesirable by mods and posters alike because everyone is looking for the hidden meaning or sub-current of abuse.

As I mentioned earlier in this discussion, when the mods are back to defcon5 instead of defcon2 it is more relaxed for us all. If the mods are not under pressure from a barrage of complaints and people trying to get a reaction, things are more relaxed for us all and we are less likely to catch someone in the crossfire who doesnt deserve our wrath.

In other words, if we can be a bit more self-moderating (without being abusive about it) perhaps we can benefit from seeing less official moderating.

anonymity + an audience = idiocy. I forget where thats lifted from but it rings true on this site. Sadly its what to be expected on most forums, it gives people the chance to say what they want knowing there will be no ramifications.

The fans i know like myself who read the site but dont post regularly, dont tend to do so because of the polar views that are expressed without any thought (we lose = butcher out). I think these views have risen recently, perhaps as said due to the influx of younger posters.

I think its a sad situation but if its becoming a chore to run the forum then maybe change is needed.

I would suggest:

No/limited posting rights for under 18's (make sure they can still read the forum)

temporary bans (work like a dream on other sites)

The ability for individuals to instantly block other users

Agree about the anonymity comment and I have seen it on all sorts of boards not just this one.

However, users who think there are no ramifications to what they post should perhaps think again and realise that in certain circumstances their anonymity is not assured. Although the data protection act means we do not give out user information to anyone, we can be requested or compelled to disclose information about members' accounts if the situation warrants it. The information we would have would be your username, email address and ip address(es) used to access the site on certain dates/times. If you are using a direct connection, the authorities then perform the same task with your Internet provider and can tie it down to exactly who you are based on which account connected and was issued that IP address at that time on that day. And dont think using a proxy helps much either. most proxy servers only disguise a portion of your web experience (eg port 80 for browser access). This is why for example things like the BBC geographic blocking is usually unaffected if you are using a proxy as other ports on your computer such as those used for real player or media player streams or for torrents are unaffected and still report the original IP. This is one of the ways that the movie and music business find people to make an example of in the torrent system. It is an extreme example, but it serves to show that you might be "anonymous" on the board but no matter how well you try to disguise yourself, you always leave some footprints.

I also have to add that we also have a legal duty of care to remove anything that could be deemed unlawful, slanderous, libellous etc. Whilst it is unlikely that anyone would go after us for a poster making a post of this nature, it is not impossible and although the poster is ultimately liable for what they post, we can also be nailed if we allow the platform to be used as such. Its something that the lawyers drilled into us when we were part of the rivals network. Our site was never sued, but quite a few were !!!!

Reading through this thread, I see the younger posters being blamed for a lot of the crap on the boards and whilst I would agree that this is true to an extent you cannot tar all the youngsters with that same brush. I would also say that stupidity, abuse and problem posting is definitely not the exclusive domain of the youngsters, especially some of the actions of certain posters that I regard as bullying and is focused AT the youngsters rather than being from them. I would resist any suggestion that restricts access to the youngsters as that does not send out much of a message to them. They already think they get a rough deal from certain club officials (or former officials) and now there are suggestions that we do the same. not going to happen. We might be old farts and not understand the youth of today as someone said but as far as I am concerned everyone is welcome on here regardless of age, sex, or even which team they support (eh Heilandee). The behaviour they exhibit will determine whether or not they are allowed to stay. I would also add that we have actually taken great pleasure on a few occasions recently in mentoring rather than punishing a few newer posters and their inital abraisiveness and "over-exuberance" has subsided and they are becoming valued posters who contribute to the discussions on the site.

With regards to temporary bans, I think that is one tool in the arsenal that we have, we just need to make sure it is used fairly. From the discussions so far, I think the idea of "golden rules" is a good one and if we communicate that to everyone so they know where they stand, it can be effective.

Block other users - as mentioned above, normal site users can already do that via your profile. One caveat is that you cannot block mods/admin and we cannot block anyone at all

Finally on the "not posting" comment. I agree with you to an extent and I have talked with friends who read but dont post for the same reason. I will say the same to you as I say to them .... If you dont post because the views you are reading are negative and you feel positive or you see the extreme ones like a loss meaning a barrage of Butcher Out calls and you feel (like me) that it is at times a huge over-reaction, then by not posting you are only helping to perpetuate the problem. If we had a few more people expressing varied opinions then the discussion improves and becomes more balanced. I am hoping if we can get rid of the abuse and get back to discussion that some of those who are reticent to post might dip a toe in the water !

If you take a peek at my avatar, you will see that I am only to familiar with the big brother, censor, style. I cannot access Faceb, Twitter, Picassa, Blogspot etc. It is not a great road to go down. I believe that this forum should cease to be anonymous. I think that would help the forum in terms of virtual bullies, liability, personal attacks, et al. Anyway that could realistically be done?

On the Japanese version of Facebook, called Mixi, membership is by invitation only. That may work?

I dont think removing anonymity would be workable or manageable. Some people will always want to be anonymous and that is fine. If they want to hide behind that anonymity to perpetrate bullying, abuse etc then we will get rid of them using our new golden rules that users are shaping by posting in this thread. However one thing I can say about the next version of this forum software (which we are testing right now) is that it is very much more social network friendly. there are options to link your account to facebook, twitter can be accomodated and all sorts of other things so users who want to be more a part of the community on the site can certainly do so.

Ideas requiring proof of age, identity etc are very impractical unfortunately.

Invitation only? I suppose that could be achieved by creating an invitation only forum that only the "best" posters can access. It has its merits, but there are obvious downsides of creating a two-tier site, alienating those not selected to join.

Invitation only forums are something we may look at if we have to. In fact we already have a couple like that which you cannot see unless you have been a member of the Highland March team or a VPN subscriber. These are not based on being the "best posters" but are niche forums where specific things are discussed so of no interest to most posters unless they are involved in either venture.

Another alternative is to look at how we "group" posters and make increased access available based on your group. For example everyone when they join currently goes into the "members" group and pretty much stays there forever unless they become a site sponsor (sponsor group) or a mod or admin (mod, senior mod, or admin groups). Site sponsors dont see any additional forums but Mods and Admin do have access to an area of the site where all complaints get discussed. Different groups can also have different permissions so perhaps there may be some validity in splitting the members grioup into a few others ... new members (where access to all the features is a little more limited and you maybe dont get to use a signature or avatar), then members (same as now) and then perhaps after a specific length of time (rather than posts or your age) you become a "member+" or something like that and are given extra permissions.

One thing we wont do however is ever ask users to pay for access to our main football forums. Whilst we may consider adding additional "lounges" (or something like that) for a members+ group or for the sponsor group we will never force users to subscribe to access the main football forums.

The ability for individuals to instantly block other users

personally i think that idea could work, seperate the chaff from the decent posts in one click, if enough people block certain users they will get the message

You can already block posters you dont want to read. However, I believe the new software also has an optional module we can add that will allow you to filter which forums and which topics you see in your new posts page. I will look into it. This will not be evident in this board but may be incorporated as/if/when we switch to V3 of this software.

I don't think an under-18 ban should be imposed at all. As long as they're not being abusive (and let's face it, that's nothing to do with age), that's fine. I can remember one certain teen lady here was told to not complain, when she quite rightly responded that she was being supportive of Brewster for months but only got attacked for it. And yet, without her making any (that I can remember) derogatory comments, she should be banned? Definitely no age barrier.

And, what do you mean by respect? I certainly get offended by the Islamophobia spoken about by certain members on here. Should that be banned? If not, should anti-Semitism, homophobia, anti-black be ok too?

I can't believe anyone hates Renegade. I disagree with about 90% of his posts but certainly enjoy reading them probably more than anyone else's.

I think I covered the U18 stuff above. The rest is a hard one to legislate. I have no time for anyone who is prejudiced against someone because of race/religion/lifestyle etc but unfortunately they have the right to hold that opinion. How they express it however may lead to consequences. Given your geographical location, I am assuming you have many friends who are muslim and possibly jewish so you may be more aware of some of the more subtle references or passive aggressive BS that others might miss. I would suggest that in those instances you either PM the person, or bring it to the moderators attention using the report button.

One of the great things about the city where I live is that it is one of the most multi-cultural in the world and one where these sorts of problems do not seem to be a major issue (not saying they dont exist though). I think I have friends that fall into each of the categories you mentioned above and although I can spot overt reactions to them based on colour/religion or lifestyle, it is the more subtle stuff that I as an agnostic white male do not always pick up on. Please feel free to point this out if you see it and it truly offends.

along the same lines but maybe this site could have a seperate part to the forum which could be self moderated but could have a disclaimer to say that posting is at scrutiny/mercy of other posters and responsibility should be the posters as things such as libelous posts may be prosecuted and shall not be moderated by the sites owners?

As I mentioned above when talking of anonymity, the poster themself is ultimately responsible for the content of their post but we as a forum that provides them with a platform to express their opinion also have a legal duty of care to act responsibly and we can also be held accountable. I have no objection if we can get to the stage (as also mentioned earleir) where we do self moderate more as that would make all of our lives easier but as with everything else mentioned on this thread ... it needs buy-in from the site members to make it work.

I feel that any exclusion of a poster from the foum based on age is ridiculous. Unless they are abusive and / or spam the forum then there is no reason not to allow them on the site. As ICTChris says every forum has their idiots. CTO isn't any different.

I'll ask again as no one has really answered the question - apart from suggesting banning a large core of our fanbase - but what would you want to see on CTO to make it a better site/ forum? It is the users of a site that make it what it is so what do you want to see more / less of?

Personally I think we need more user input into the site. A while ago Scotty ran a recruitment drive to get more folk to help out with articles for the site but I can count on one hand the number of reports that these folk have done. It's been a very disappointing return based on the initial interest shown.

Age Issue - dealt with above

Better Site - My biggest thing is for us to get rid of the abuse and get back to the roots of being a discussion forum. If users and mods/admin can work together to go down that road, better things will follow. Less abuse means less need for moderator intervention which in turn means mods are less likely to make mistakes in that moderation and people get less uptight or sensitive when something is moved/edited/deleted or when given a warning. To my mind it is all about changing a downward spiral where things are getting more and more out of sync into an upward spiral where things continue to improve to the point where we might just get some of the craic back.

Editorial Team - yes, that is disappointing. One the one hand users tell us they want to have more input into the site and yet when we make that opportunity available we get a handful of volunteers and of those perhaps only 1 or 2 who submitted anything. We would like this to be a fan site by the fans and for the fans but that is unrealistic unless everyone works together. Our team was at its most effective when they all worked for each other ... the same is probably true of this site !

I know it's probably not allowed but you could mentio the website to get in more users. Like CaleyD could give it a mention at the home games before KO or HT.

I dont think that is appropriate. It would be an abuse of Don's position as announcer. I would far rather that we worked with the club and got a mention for being one part of any joint venture we worked on with them. Think the club shop still have some caleythistleonline.com poly bags though

I get the feeling that this topic has aired a lot of feelings and things will quieten down for a spell untill.....

Here's hoping it can change some things permanently ! I am sure there are more issues just around the corner somewhere but everything I have posted here is open and honest and if users can try to make this a better place we will try to do the same so that together we can take the forum forward.

I am actually quite excited about the new version of the forum software as I think it has the potential to make this more of a community but to be honest, I havent bothered doing much with it yet as I have been feeling this way about the site.

This thread IS proving to be somewhat cathartic but I still wonder about some of the posters who havent yet made a comment ... will they agree and help make it better? or will they carry on as normal and try to make our lives difficult? If they do the latter, will those who have made good and sensible comments on here (that we are listening to) point out the error of their ways (in a respectful fashion)? or will it all be hot air and BS and we will have another ****storm?