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Brew left us as soon as he could. Was well on the way to getting Dundee United relegated. Failed there. Came back here when he wasn't wanted. Was pretty certain to get us relegated too. Butcher was the choice of CTO. Some might blame him for getting us relegated. I thought he gave us hope. Brought us up at the first opportunity. Has been nowhere near relegation since we came back up. Just started a new season with only one defeat and that's to the champions of last year and almost certainly this. The criticism is just way over the top this early in the season. But then, it's not about this season is it? It's about wanting someone to fail, so they can say "I'm right at last! We should never have hired him, no matter how well we've done these past few seasons!" It's just simply tedious. Shout for his head if he fails but one defeat to Celtic???? It's ridiculous.

Not at all. If the team went out to win, attack and ultimately take part in an entertaining game, then I think you'd find people to be a lot more supportive, understanding and a lot less likely to turn away.

While I might agree there is to much negativity, fans pay their hard earned cash to watch the team and if they are not satisfied are entitled to express their opinion, do you think this is exclusively an ICT problem? fans of every club moan. The biggest mystery is how it was deemed acceptable by many to have a go at Brewster but having a go at Butcher is frowned upon.

Well the Doom and Gloom Brigade are having a whale of a time on this forum,God knows what it will be like if we ever lose another game. It would seem we have the worst set of players, the worst manager.the worst assistant manager,the worst board of directors, the worst Chairman, the worst stewards, Who next do they want to have a go at The grounds staff maybe. Come on Guys take stock of yourselves you will be closing down this forum next by your ranting and raving. Are you all so good at your own jobs, hobbies etc. Are you so perfect in your own lives that it gives you the right to judge others so harshly. GET BEHIND THE TEAM NOT ON TOP OF IT. We have as good an outfit as we can afford and they are doing very well so far this season BARRING ONE GLITCH. Give them a chance will you.

What rubbish. Players like Ross, the Shinnie's, McKay, Morrison, Pepper, Doran, even Draper, Foran and Sutherland could be great players in an attacking team. Saying "we don't have the players" is nonsense and saying "we'll lose more games" is also incorrect. Matches are there to be won and playing on the attack will be more likely to turn draws into wins. Remember, it's better to have one exciting win and two exciting defeats than three boring draws.

Firstly, the 'people in authority' are the USADA who are the people responsible for ensuring that US sports are clean so they are just doing their job, same as when athletes such as Marion Jones, Justin Gatlin etc. got busted. Surely it's clean sports we want. Second the mantra that keeps getting repeated about 500 tests is just that - an irrelevant mantra. Unfortunately the drug cheats are ahead of the testers and have been for years. The fact is that in cycling, most of the other riders who have been busted were also 'clean' according to the tests and have since confessed. So clean tests actually mean nothing. It's hard to test for blood doping for example, and the test for EPO (I understand) didn't exist/wasn't effective. Jones, Chambers et al. only got busted when someone leaked - they'd also passed tests. Thirdly, the 'unsubstantiated testimony of untrustworthy people'. Well in our courts that's usually exactly how drug dealers are tried and convicted. And the testimony is from his own teammates - a dozen or so of them who have testified as to sytematic blood doping etc. I'm not sure why these people are any more untrustworthy than someone who's more incentive to lie about it. And of course it is Armstrong who's decided not to subject these testimonies to cross-examination etc. Most likely his lawyers have advised him he didn't have a prayer. The charges are very very damning and frankly I'm amazed that so many people think they shouldn't be properly investigated. http://www.usada.org/media/sanction-armstrong8242012 Given that just about every other rider who finished on the podium on those 7 tours has been found to have doped, it's not credible that Armstrong wasn't doing it as well. Now that the tests have been beefed up, riders like Cadel Evans and Bradley Wiggins who are believed to be clean are able to win, but at average speeds that are significantly less than in the previous 2 decades - that tells its own story.

I thought this was a matchday thread about the Celtic game, not another rehash of how/ why Munro and Tokely (funny how Russel Duncan never gets a mention now) departed. We were really poor throughout most of the first half. It was clear that our central defence had never played opposition of the quality that they faced on Saturday. Warren maintained that he had never played in a televised game before so it shows the level they have come from and what they need to adapt to. I think that TB plays David Raven from the start because he is a better and faster option in an attacking sense than Meekings. He certainly was in the game at Hearts, which might cover his reasons for being what I could only see as being mildly unchuffed at being subbed. Meekings then comes on to defend a lead/ limit damage. To be fair, in most games this season that's not a bad way to operate. On Saturday, however he was up against wing backs who are both full internationals and he suffered for it. OK we got our two goals when Celtic had fallen into torpor, but we still got them. As a comparison, Celtic's squad is worth at least ten times the value of ours. Their income is in excess of fifty times ours if you include Champions League, which they are certain to qualify for now. In fact, I have heard it said that Wednesday's match against Helsingborgs will earn them more than we will earn in a season. One match! How do we compete with that? The fact that they are not better is illustration that ex-players sometimes don't make good managers, and we will see what happens to Celtic when they face one of the teams who are 5-6 times richer than them (say a Dortmund, or a Lyon or a Valencia - never mind Real, Barca or the Manchester clubs) They will find themselves in exactly the same position as ICT on Saturday. There was no lack of application, effort or heart on Saturday, just a team steamrollered by an opposition they had only ever seen on telly, and the noise that reverberated round the ground to the near silence of the home support? That was the sound of money, nothing else.

Look forward to playing C(o)unty. They can't score, we can't defend, should be interesting :lol: :lol:

Can I just check that you guys are watching the same games as the rest? Majority of people I have spoken to this season are delighted with the way the team is playing and despite yesterdays result are fairly upbeat. What appears to putting more people off than anything else is having to listen to small groups and individuals who seem to think we should be walking every match and are on the players/managers back, moaning, booing or shouting crap at the slightest thing.

All together now ..... Let's all laugh at County, let's all laugh at County, La la la la. La la la la. and repeat - till we get gubbed by Arbroath tomorrow. Two serious points though. Three premier division sides knocked out tonight including the holders so this competition is already opening up. No messing about with this competition, please, let's make sure we win tomorrow and we could get a morale boosting, money earning run going. Secondly, Adams rested several players including Munro and Tokely. The report says that without ext ICT keeper Brown, the defeat might have been heavier. What is clear is that County have little depth and are heavily reliant on the defensive qualities of those two. If County are hit by an injury or two to key defenders they could struggle.

Still dam funny though!

Let's just enjoy tonight for the moment. Tomorrow will take care of itself. It's a sad day if we can't enjoy our neighbours misfortune. Too much glass half empty stuff about at the moment!

The question is Butcher the man for the job, well yes he is actually a football manager whether we like it or not. I know everyone say he “good” with the press but that my problem. He tends to tell the press what he thinks which the press love. He is far too realistic which then means he is far too negative. I would prefer if he did what every other manager did and just talk up team, the style of football, all the plus points with the club and ignore the rest. We are top goal scorers at the moment with 7 goals in four games. Our recognised strikers have all scored along with 2 midfield players. We scored 2 goals against the champions elect, how many other team will do that this year in the SPL? At the start of season how many point would you realistically expect after 4 games, especially after play two of the top 4 club in the country? Personally I would have thought 4, a draw away to St Mirren and home win against Kilmarnock. So has the start of season been so bad that it is time to lock away any sharp objects. PS can anyone on here tell me that any of the game this season has been boring? I have been to all the games apart from Hearts (still upset). 16 goals with 2 red cards that an average of 4 goals a game with a red cards every 2 games. You don’t get that following EPL or Spanish teams.

You mean you were disappointed it wasn't your trouser pockets? :lol:

Seriously, what is Butcher expected to do? Can only work with what he has got. I am one of those delighted with the way the season has gone so far. For the first time in years we are showing that our own group of young players are making progress to becoming established members of the first team. We have also shown that despite working with a limited budget we can still attract experienced footballers to this club and have done so by building a backline containing 2 players that captained previous clubs. Most of the new lads have all established themselves in the side and im glad. I've got every bit of confidence that we will get better as the season goes on. Saturday was a bad result backed up by a poor performance, we were outclassed and outplayed but i see it as a learning curve for those who had never sampled a game like that before, especially in the defence. Hopefully they can come back better from it. Anyone who seriously walks into a game against Celtic expecting a result is incredibly naive, just cause County got a point of them the week before well big feckin whoop. If i was to have anything against Butcher it is his persistence with formations that dont work. He needs to be more open to try new ideas. Lads like Pepper and Oswell are yet to be given a proper chance to steak their claim, despite showing potential He should be more prepared to tweak his team in order to use them and to bring about better results. That said i still think he is the right man for the job. There are signs in the first 3 games that he is still capable of getting the best out of this team and that we can still hold our own in this league. So give the man a break.

And Shane Sutherland is also a "kid" and in my opinion shows more promise than Rory and that is what frustrates me about the manner in which Butcher is slowly but surely destroying his self confidence. I can understand an amateur like CaleyD falling for the training excuse but if Butcher has fallen fer it - as he appears to have - then heaven help us. I can remember training with Kenny McKenzie and he was ace at centre forward and Penman was superb in goals. Really good posts from Chris and Doofersgrandad who see it from a tactical and skill perspective. But the naricsisstic tendencies in Butcher will mean that he will play Shane wide forever.

I dont understand the 'fans' on here, while everyone is entitled to an opinion, what is excpected from TB? Seems he can do nothing right for some, what has to be achieved for him to be acknowledged as doing a good/stable job? Attacking fancy flowing football - sadly we dont have the players for this and if we do try it we will probably loose more games than we do right now. Better to play to the strengths we have and try win points and get the first only aim of the season SPL safety sorted. Finishing Top 6 - No other ICT manager (with bigger budgets) have done this, with the SPL as tight between most teams with a good run and being injury free ICT have an equal chance of finishing here as they do bottom - just like 6 or 7 others. Win a Cup - Again as above no other manager has done this or reached a final, but I believe this is where we need to try harder, over the last few years we havent done overly well and if the likes of Killie, County, Gretna, Hibs can make finals we can too. If only some people would stop looking back and dreaming of Robbo, 10CC, Stevie P, Granty, Tokely, Wyness etc etc - these days are past, we have to move forwards and evolve if we didnt the team would be full of washed up players and we would be moving backwards. If experienced players move on because they get offered more cash elsewhere or longer deals then we just have to accept it, not all of this is TB's fault, the board also have a part to play - as a club we have to 'cut our cloth accordingly'.

I agree. While I have stated points above relating to Butcher, most of them could be classed as above him. I think we should be thinking about the club as a whole and its future. I agree too. And I don't mean the Board. They have a tough job. It's the whole Scottish system. The finances are too diluted at the bottom and too concentrated at the top. Rangers shouldn't be the reason for reorganisation but it seems to have shifted to be the reason for not reorganising now. That's a step too far. As old Edwyn once sang, we need to rip it up and start again. But this is probably off-topic (but on conversation).

I agree. While I have stated points above relating to Butcher, most of them could be classed as above him. I think we should be thinking about the club as a whole and its future.

How many more years are we going to have to read such stories. I have been reading such tales of over zelous stewarding for year after year on here....certainly since ICT got into the SPL. The Board really need to look into this, as crowds seem to be dwindling alarmingly so and the club can ill afford to lose any more precious punters. Its a known fact, give people a little power and they often will abuse that right.

Is this another reason why folk don't to games any more? One our fans gets ejected for having a smoke whilst at the other end, the septic fans are standing, jumping about and then doing stupid Polish huddle across the whole stand. One rule for one and one for the other.

He was sat right in front of me, so I know exactly what happened. The guy had gone out to the burger van for a smoke just after half time...lit one up, smoked half of it, and came back to his seat. Stewards came along, asked him to come for a chat, he refused, saying he payed to watch the footbball and thats what he was going to do. Next thing, the police came along and ejected him. He was thrown out for having a smoke, where plenty of others do at half time,

Celtic may have beaten us 4 -2 on the park but their supporters beat us 10 - 0 on the terraces. Surely we must have the worst home fans in the league and you can see how badly it affects the team; they are scared stiff of making mistakes and receiving a torrent of abuse from the so-called support. In the match thread I said I think the players lack confidence and to be honest, a significant part of that is that they are worried about getting abuse when things don't go right. The crowd do precious little to lift the team but plenty to let the team know that they do not meet the fan's often unrealistic expectations. Take two examples from today. One of the guys sat next to me got to his feet after Celtic's 2nd goal and let rip with a tirade of vitriolic abuse aimed at Terry Butcher. When we scored our goals he simply sat in his seat and didn't even clap. He generally mumped and moaned about what was on display and never once as far as I was aware clapped or uttered any words of encouragement. And amongst the general moaning behind me were comments during a passage of play when we were keeping possession well but not making progress. "F***ing do something with it" was the shout from behind. No sooner had that advice been given than Morrison, I think it was, tried to put the ball over the defence for Andrew Shinnie to run on - it nearly came off but was well cut out and the same voice shouts out, "for f***'s sake don't give it away!" Just what do these people want and expect? We're not Barcelona and if we try anything other than the safe ball it will come off less often than it doesn't. Today we were up against the league champions and their side is stuffed with internationals and sometimes balls don't find their intended target because very good defenders read the situation and do their job well. Let's give them credit for that. And let's give our team credit for trying to play football against Celtic rather than being boring like County and simply stopping them playing and having no ambition. Do these people ever stop to think about what the impact is on the players? Presumably not. How do they think that players feel when they hear more noise in shouts of frustration and abuse when they make an error than they hear in applause and shouts of encouragement when they play a 30 yard pass inch perfect to a team mate? Well, it doesn't make them feel confident and appreciated that's for sure. Believe me, I get just as frustrated as anyone, even angry, when players make basic errors but I respond by silently cursing to my self, rolling my eyes or shaking my head or the like - I don't voice my feelings at the player but will make a point of clapping and shouting encouragement when they next get the ball and use it well. This thread is about small crowds and the concern that some folk no longer come to watch the team. To be honest, it would be a good thing if some who still come along on a Saturday afternoon started staying away. That might mean that those who actually support the team might have more of an influence on the mood of the crowd as a whole and the team will respond to a more positive atmosphere in the ground. That in turn might encourage others to start supporting the team and take the place of the moaners. Now I expect there will be those who will have a go at me saying that they pay good money and can expect to see better entertainment and have a right to make their views known. I would agree with that but the way to do that is to express your views on this forum or directly to the club if you are that angry. On match days, the players really need the support and encouragement of the fans and it really makes me angry that so many who turn up seem to do their best to abuse and discourage the team. They fail to understand that far from venting their anger at what they see as the problem, they are actually part of the problem themselves. I think I am right in saying there are signs at the gates referring to "home support". That is for peope who will support the home team, not people who apparently want the home team to win but who abuse rather than support them. Perhaps there should be signs at the gates directing those who are going to shout abuse at the home team to the South Stand because the only team that benefits from the way some of the paying customers in the main and North stands behave is the away team. Apologies for the length of this rant but I really am getting well and truly p***ed off by the behaviour of some of the people who pay to watch our team but who undermine the confidence of the team and ruin the matchday experience for others. By all means criticise the team as much as you want on this forum but for Christ's sake, on a match day give the team what they so desparately need - support! How f***ing difficult is that?

Mate of mine is an Arab and becasue the recent derby was a sell out the club asked any season ticket holders that wouldnt make the game to volunteer their seats so the club could sell them. Seems perfectly sensible. Empty seats sold for £20 -£25 a head may not set the heather alight but might make a few extra quid.

probably THE hardest sporting achievement to win.