THE MATCHDAY THREAD Discuss ICT & other games in this thread as they happen Inverness CT -V- Dundee PREVIEW 13th Aug 2014 @ 7:45PM Caledonian Stadium Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Facebook Go to the Chatroom Media Coverage AUDIO Sportsound (BBC) [uK/VPN Only] Bauer Radio (MFR for our away games, other Bauer stations for our home games) - link to be confirmed   TEXT ESPN BBC SKY Sporting Life VIDEO SPFL YouTube Channel ICT Official YouTube Channel   TEAM LINEUPS

Not one to live long in the memory - instantly forgettable. But to be honest, tonight's result is largely unimportant when we take into consideration the bigger picture on this historic day.

Exactly 20 years ago (13th Aug 1994) the club played it's first ever league game - a fixture with Arbroath that we won 5-2. Look at us now! Forget tonight - it's of no consequence in the grand scheme of the ICT journey - remember how far we've come in a short time!

 

Happy Birthday ICT. In 5 minutes (from posting) the club moves proudly into its third decade!

Edited August 13, 201410 yr by Sneckboy

Quick thoughts before I completely nod off after that dull fest of a match.

 

First half was incredibly boring. Lots of sideways passing from ICT which made Dundee work hard trying to close us down but we barely got forward when we had the ball and didn't seem to have much interest in trying to do anything positive with it other than retain possession. Best chance came when Draper attempted an audacious 40 yard lob but it sailed just over.

 

In the second half the ineffective Vincent was replaced by Watkins which allowed us to try and stretch the Dundee defence except we, erm, didn't and in fact managed to somehow play even more narrow at times. At one point Watkins, Christie and Doran were all hovering around the edge of the D. We did have some good chances to score with Shinnie perhaps having the best chance when he rifled a low effort at the Dee keeper but after the initial shot was spilled he blazed over. Warren also had a good chance from a header and Watkins led a four man break on three or four Dundee defenders but dallied on the ball too long and gave the ball away.

 

Dundee also had some good chances. Peter MacDonald twice managed to lose his marker from a free kick / corner but wasn't able to convert. His best chance came when he sped away from Meekings but thumped the ball over from about 6 yards out. Dundee also had a penalty claim turned down as well. Hard to see what happened from the other end of the pitch but it looked like we might have gotten away with one there. Overall a draw was a fair result I think.

 

From an ICT perspective I am somewhat concerned at our slow approach to the game. We seldom looked interested to try and do anything attacking wise with the ball often turning back and sending the ball back from midfield to defence to start over again. Good attacking positions were lost as we seemed to prefer the safer option of keep the ball at all costs. Vincent was all over the place playing out on the right hand side. He was out of position and left Raven exposed on a good few occasions and didn't really stretch the Dundee defence when he got forward drifting into the middle of the park with alarming regularity. 

 

Once Watkins came on, and later Doran, I hoped we would stretch Dundee more and work some space for Ryan Christie to exploit. Instead, as mentioned previously, the three were often found in close proximity in the middle of the pitch and when the ball was played back to the full backs they had no wide men offering support on the left or right. To be honest, I thought we looked very disjointed for a fair chunk of the game with the players seemingly unsure where they should be or what to do. Improvements needed for us ahead of Motherwell especially going forward. We capitalised on two daft errors at Hamilton but Dundee were much more resolute at the back and look a tough side to break down. They should have enough quality to avoid relegation.

So John is asking the players to play  possession football as a priority over  flair and forward drive just to stop the opposition getting the ball? Is he playing for draws or wins then?

 

Paul Harley is playing it cagey?

New job, new Division and needs to size up the scene and his new players. Quite smart actually. That means, as the season progresses, Hamilton will improve under his control.

 

So which of the two  clubs do you fancy for going back down-- Dundee or Hamilton?

Currently neither! Why? Because both are showing more spunk than Ross County.

 

Ross County are  mercurial, I think.---now you se them , now you don't, now they are top then they are bottom. In short ,a lack of consistency will relegate you in this league.

My perception of the game was a typical early season match.  Nobody really wanted to dominate the  proceedings. Caley seemed content to rely on a slow build up, which allowed Dundee time to fall back and park the bus.  Hughes is obviously trying to make his mark on the way  ICT play, but somehow a mix in the passes was lacking i.e a reluctance to get forward was very apparent.. We seem to be playing a half way house, short passing that is but without the killer through balls that is normally linked with that approach. Dundee  played well, content to fall back, tackle hard, but when given the chance got forward on the counter,  Dundee had chances to win the game and could with a bit of good fortune done so. Caley's finishing was not good, the few chances they had were squandered by rushing the shot. Why try to blast the ball? when it would be simpler to pass the ball into the net. I thought a  rush of blood was in evidence when shooting. Hughes has certainly changed the style of plat, time will tell if for the better.

Johndo, if you like watching football it might well be entertaining. Dundee parked the bus here, and only came into the game when we got overanxious about it in the last 15 minutes or so. It's not as if we didn'y create chances - Warren, Shinnie and Draper could have scored. Both teams tried to play football, and if we had got Hartley as manager there's a fair bit to indicate here that the end result would look remarkably similar to the Hughes model. I'm not sure about being bored by a passing game (even if it doesn't always come off) but I'd sure as hell rather be bored by that than leathering the ball upfield into the corners and chasing it pell mell. 4 points out of six for the first two games? Happy with that.

PS: Hamilton's result tonight puts into perspective how well we did against them on saturday - there's no mugs in this league.

I appreciate all of that but most of the comments on here are similar to mine after the Brum game. You do not defeat teams who park the bus with that style of play. In many ways it encourages them to put the handbrake on and wait for a break. The hoof game is as bad but it sometimes works. As I have said before we will have a load of low scoring games this season. My MAJOR worry is that the style will drive peeple away and the attendances will drop further. And we will be very, very predictable.

Early days but it appears as though we might be in for a lot more of the ineffective and ultimately eye bleeding fare that only brought us two home wins and precious few goals under John Hughes last season.

 

Teams don't even need time to work us out. They did that during the second half of last season and nothing seems to have altered.

I wasn't at the game but spoke to a "neutral" who was there and said it was a rotten game, his word "lots of foreplay but no action" . Seems that the majority of those that were there feel the same.

 

Davie, I think almost everyone that goes to the game "likes football" however they also like to see goals, if you gave me the choice, 20 passes in the middle of the park and no end product or a hoof and a goal, I would take the hoof every time. 

Johndo, if you like watching football it might well be entertaining. Dundee parked the bus here, and only came into the game when we got overanxious about it in the last 15 minutes or so. It's not as if we didn'y create chances - Warren, Shinnie and Draper could have scored. Both teams tried to play football, and if we had got Hartley as manager there's a fair bit to indicate here that the end result would look remarkably similar to the Hughes model. I'm not sure about being bored by a passing game (even if it doesn't always come off) but I'd sure as hell rather be bored by that than leathering the ball upfield into the corners and chasing it pell mell. 4 points out of six for the first two games? Happy with that.

PS: Hamilton's result tonight puts into perspective how well we did against them on saturday - there's no mugs in this league.

 

Davie, remember Dundee were away from home where this type of possession football is more acceptable, I would imagine Hartley would try to entertain the fans a bit more at home, something Yogi doesn't seem to be to interested in .

I nearly fell asleep attempting to watch the first half, second half improved slightly but if this continues just watch the already poor attendance drop as entertainment was at a minimum

Sad thing is Yogi probably thinks last night was a success as ball retention was reasonably good

Hope this post was acceptable to mods and won't be removed by mods without an explanation

Dougal

After the first two minutes, where we passed the ball around at lightning speed, I turned to my friend and said "If we can keep this tempo up then we'll do well."

 

We didn't.  Not even close.  Not a minute went past in the main stand without the phrase "too slow" being used by somebody.  For all our possession, we managed to create one glaring chance in open play all night, for Graeme Shinnie.  That's woeful for a home team playing against anyone.

 

At the back, Warren and Meekings look a whole lot more comfortable than they did in this system last season, and until the late flurry of Dundee chances we didn't look like conceding.  But often we got so many people behind the ball defensively that Mckay was left terribly isolated even when holding the ball up.

 

If we're going to score goals in this system, we have to either be capable of 'pieces of magic' in the final third or we have to be able to simply tire out the opposition and pick them off in the later stages.  Unfortunately, Scottish Premiership players are not capable of 'pieces of magic' unless they have time and space, which ours don't have.  Worryingly, I thought Dundee looked fitted and stronger in the last 15 minutes, which means we weren't tiring them out.  Quite the opposite in fact.

 

We even managed to screw up a 4 on 3 break late on.  If we can't manage to open up defences in these situations, what hope does Yogi have of us doing so against two banks of four?!

 

Some great performances tonight, mind - Shinnie and Draper in particular stood out for me.  Drapes must have won about 10 tackles, and the moment in the second half when a Dundee player tried to obstruct him and got run over was the highlight of the game for me!

Edited August 14, 201410 yr by hislopsoffsideagain

I nearly fell asleep attempting to watch the first half, second half improved slightly but if this continues just watch the already poor attendance drop as entertainment was at a minimum

Sad thing is Yogi probably thinks last night was a success as ball retention was reasonably good

Hope this post was acceptable to mods and won't be removed by mods without an explanation

Dougal

 

I nearly fell asleep attempting to watch the first half, second half improved slightly but if this continues just watch the already poor attendance drop as entertainment was at a minimum

Sad thing is Yogi probably thinks last night was a success as ball retention was reasonably good

Hope this post was acceptable to mods and won't be removed by mods without an explanation

Dougal

 

You now have that explanation you seek.

Hard to disagree with the majority of what has been already said. Only positives from me, over last season is that we did a much better job of closing down and harrying Dundee than we did last season (Draper was excellent at this last night) and that ball retention was a lot better than last season. Major concern is that we were very slow to support on the break at times so good breaks came to nothing as not enough players far enough up the field. Best moments came when Raven got forward and put in some decent crosses which strangely, in the first half especially Graham Shinnie seemed reluctant to do when he had the opportunities. Both full backs had plent of both space and the ball and I was surprised Dundee did little to stop that.

To sum up, a bit betetr than last season but passing has to be sharper and quicker in the final third, the problem is that i don't think we are good enough to do that.

Poor final balls to McKay and not enought movement up front from anyone. Nobody was making runs in behind or into the box and we were making it too easy for Dundee to just sit deep and eventually head clear when we got frustrated and crossed a ball to McKay. We defended better than last year though and another clean sheet is always nice.

Total borefest, luckily less than 3000 home supporters had to suffer it.

Dire stuff last night. We were lucky to come away with a point.

I think the game has been covers by most so just a couple of points. First of all how quickly can the referee's go on strike please? Plus what was going on in the Supporters bar before the game. There were so many drunk Dundee fans in there I think they may have to rethink the away supporter rule.

I am afraid it tedious.I would have thought Billy would jump at getting away.

Iam sure we are not alone in thinking this, if we continue with this style of football and he struggles to get chances.

 

I felt really sorry for him last night. 

It is early season so don't judge too soon, or should we? 

I am sure the players realise they have to work on the final ball.

We seem to be working on a wing back principle without the 3rd centre back

If a fullback is in attacking mode he has to get in a more challenging position and get goal side of his marker

To make myself clear not much point in passing to an unmarked fullback who is on the wrong side of the defence. Surely  the inside forward ( showing my age)_  has to draw the marker then pass inside to the winger or wing back.

There was booing last night from sections of the home crowd , I didn't hear a single song not even the mandatory cat calling of the referee ;something I don't like but it shows we were all but  going to sleep.   I thought after the Hamilton game Hughes had got his message across , he may have, but I now think the players are afraid to express themselves, I feel they feel hidebound to follow instructions to the letter. Professional footballers should be given licence to adjust to the situation and do what they feel good at, without fear of a rollicking from the head coach.

This is most apparent with the goalkeeper, who seems to be under duress to feed a short ball out every time. Surely an element of surprise would be an occasional thump up  the field. Often opposition centre backs miss head the ball and .attackers can latch on to it. I have been watching football matches since 1949 and I can't believe what I am seeing, it is neither fish nor fowl as they say.

No wonder Hartlepool were relegated under Hughes's tenure. 

We have played two promoted sides -  what will good sides in the division make of our style ? I am sure the coaches of Motherwell and Celtic will see the videos of the game and will work on a pressing game to cut down the room for short passing . .

Edited August 14, 201410 yr by Laurence

The booing was at the referee Lawrence not at the players...

Laurence has made a lot of good points there, OCG.

I thought we were a more solid unit with James Vincent on the pitch. His role, and the general fans reaction to it, reminds me a lot of Russell Duncan. Both do a lot of work recovering the ball when we lose it and providing an out ball for anyone under pressure but not necessarily making killer passes.

After James was taken off, while we did get forward quicker we also left a lot of spaces for Dundee to exploit and they nearly took advantage. Danny Williams is also better at tackling back than either Marley or Arran and I felt that although our attacking options improved it was at the cost of opening up our defence.

I think the game has been covers by most so just a couple of points. First of all how quickly can the referee's go on strike please? Plus what was going on in the Supporters bar before the game. There were so many drunk Dundee fans in there I think they may have to rethink the away supporter rule.

I'm of the opposite viewpoint I enjoyed them in there singing their songs, something I enjoy of our own fans at away games, I would imagine it would have been a bumper night of bar takings as well, we certainly got served ok  win win all round for me 

The booing was at the referee Lawrence not at the players...

Well I am not so sure but if you say so, of course I BOW TO YOUR SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE, MY PERCEPTION WAS THE  REF HAD A VERY GOOD GAME.

When out of the country I depend on comments here to give me an honest understanding of how a game went. I also read the press online and usually they can be biased towards the southern teams. This week I read here that we weren't very good yet much of the press praise our performance and, indeed, suggest we could have won by a few had we capitalised on our chances. Around 12 shots on goal and about five on target tells me we are creating chances. Just not puting strain on the net. two games, two clean sheets and four points isn't a bad start and I believe we will get better.

 

The booing was at the referee Lawrence not at the players...

Well I am not so sure but if you say so, of course I BOW TO YOUR SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE, MY PERCEPTION WAS THE  REF HAD A VERY GOO

 

No need to shout or the sarcasm, Jiust saying it as I say it. The only booing I heard in the North stand was directed towards the referee. One occasion was when Doran (I think) was clean through on goal and the referee stopped play to book a Dundee player instead of playing advantage. I did not hear any booing personally towards the players.

Edited August 15, 201410 yr by old caley girl